'The Terminator' & 'Terminator 2', VFX Supervisor, John Rosengrant

0:08Jawad MirWell, thank you, for joining. Really looking forward to chatting with you about Terminator 1 and 2, with James Cameron obviously being the director. You know, just to kind of start off, and I kind of know we talked about this when we spoke, way back a few months ago. We briefly talked about Terminator, but just to kind of educate myself, refresh my memory and educate the audience, what exactly was your role on both films? You know, just so that I can…

0:36John RosengrantOh

0:36Jawad Mir... Take it from there.

0:37John RosengrantSo the first film, was my education and my real introduction into this business. I had done a few things before that, but I got hired by Stan to work on Terminator, so it was my first big movie. I had done some smaller films before that and, you know, I met a lot of people at Makeup Effects Lab, which Stan hired for Terminator, and they recommended me. And, so anyway, I ended up s… you know, starting out and really proving myself o… on a lot of different levels as an artist, as a on-set person, you know, puppeteering, all these things. I had all these opportunities on the first Terminator. By T2, I had already been with Stan for a number of years.

1:32Jawad MirRight.

1:32John RosengrantWe had also done Aliens with James Cameron. And then so when T2 came around I was in more of a supervisor r… role, but also on set puppeteering and leading the team there.

1:48Jawad MirGreat. That's, that's awesome. So tell me about the puppeteer work that you... I mean, the first one, the Terminator 1, the original, The Terminator, it's, it's... If you look back at it, like it's almost now 40 years. I think it came out in 1984, if my memory serves me right.

2:03John RosengrantYeah, I think it came out in '84. We were working on it in '83.

2:07Jawad MirYeah. So back then, right, and the story is so tight, like it's not like, you know, with multiple storylines and characters going on. You really have three characters in the film, right?

2:21John RosengrantYeah.

2:21Jawad MirLinda Hamilton, Arnold Schwarzenegger and

2:25John RosengrantMichael Biehn

2:25Jawad Mir... Is it, was it Michael Biehn? Michael Biehn.

2:27John RosengrantYeah.

2:27Jawad MirAnd it was such a grounded film, but at the same time from a wizardry standpoint, from the visual effects standpoint, to this day it looks quite authentic. Right? Your p… your work on the first day on The Terminator, what was it like just being as, you know, in the, in the presence of people like James Cameron and Stan Winston, who were also at the time in the early part of their careers to some degree? And then at the same time, what was your first particular job on that day, the first day? What were your, was your task to do?

3:09John RosengrantSo let me just give y… a little background.

3:13Jawad MirPlease

3:13John Rosengrant... I got hired to work on it and then the film got put on hold. And Stan kept us on because I guess he saw some value in us and, it was myself, Tom Woodruff, Shane Mahan, and Richard Landon. And he kept us busy. We were doing reshoots for a television show. He had done Manimal and a couple other small projects. And then The Terminator came back, so we were in place to start work on that and there was other people that got hired. But y… you know, what I have to r… recall is meeting, you know, James Cameron for the first time.

3:57John RosengrantObviously I'd been working for Stan for a few months and, you know, im… impressed w… with Stan. I mean, it was, it was such an opportunity. Honestly, this first film between Stan and Jim, you know, helped launch a career for me because I stayed with Stan for 25 years after that and worked on many things with James Cameron. But the first Terminator was my film school really in a lot of ways. I had gone, majored in art and, you know, I loved sculpting and painting and that's what got me hired. But I had a lot of n… new skills I had to learn on that, on that show, which was y… you know, how to be part of that team because that's, it's really important, you know, being a crew. And back in those days the crew was so small that you did everything from run foam to silicone to m… make molds to sculpt to paint.

5:00John RosengrantYou went on set, wh… which was an unbelievable opportunity for me. It wasn't as compartmentalized as it is now. So you got to, learn what was great about each job, what the pitfalls were, what you had to avoid, what you had to,... You know, and for me, I, it just was an amazing opportunity. It was the first script I had ever read and, boy did that spoil me. But it was, you know, really getting immersed into the film world, you know, coming from being an artist but being now an artist in, you know, making a, making a film. I remember, Jim Cameron coming over and, he and Stan went off to, an auto parts junkyard and came back with transmission housings and… y… y… you know, differentials and a… all sorts of different various parts, and that was to be some of the feel and the look that was going to be incorporated into the endoskeleton.

6:19John RosengrantAnd I remember Jim showing up with all these paintings and sketches that he had done. He did a lot of, things on like a, like a dark blue paper, and he would work with colored pencils it seemed like, or chalks or whatever on top of that. And he'd, you know, create this look of what the film was gonna be. So we had a good idea, where it was going, and he mapped out everything. And, but he came back, they came back from the auto parts, not auto parts, but the junkyard with all these parts and then Jim and Stan started, you know, sketching out what the Terminator was gonna look like, and he did that full size. And so we ended up having, you know, something that we could refer to, front and back views and side views and drawings. You know, that's how it was done back then.

7:19John RosengrantNow it's all 3D, you know, 3D sculpting and whatnot. But the concept, you know, came about from Stan and Jim, and Jim really had this in his head from day one, what he was looking for. It was just coming up with the details and how it was going to, look.

7:43Jawad MirRight. And for me, what's so great... I remember watching Terminator. So when I watched The Terminator the first time, I was back home in my original country. I was like, in Pakistan. I was probably 10, 11 years old. And, over there when movies would come on VHS, they would be, you know, just like in the '90s, I don't know in States, but in Canada, when you watch movies at 8:00 PM, like, you know, the F-bombs would be bleeped out or, you know, anything explicit would be cut out. So over there, all the VHS that we used to watch, like everything was cut. It had to go through a censor board.

8:29John RosengrantOh.

8:29Jawad MirAnd then, you know, I'll, I'll... I don't know if it was done leg… le… legitimately or not, I have no idea, but it had to…... Go through a censor board. And I remember watching it with my parents because obviously the nature of the film, and it, the only thing, the memory that left me with it was the ending where the animatronics, or the in… the, not the animatronics, I think the stop motion, not... The animatronics came in the second film. The, where you see the

8:55John RosengrantNo, there was, there was an animatronic in the first film as well.

9:00Jawad MirThe arm was, right?

9:01John RosengrantAnd there was stop motion.

9:02Jawad MirOkay, so it was a combination of both. Okay.

9:03John RosengrantIt was a combination of both.

9:05Jawad MirOkay, so I may be mixing up…

9:06John RosengrantWhat we couldn't do with our puppet, Jim did. At the time, that was, you know, the way to go was stop motion. And, so we also, a guy named Willie Witten also sculpted, I wanna say a one quarter scale version of the Terminator. So Willie would sit there in our shop as we were sculpting the full-size one, he was translating it and doing the small one. And I believe it was Doug Beswick that ended up, helping build that puppet, you know, the stop motion one. So as close as we could get it at the time, 'cause you're sculpting it all by hand, we're sculpting a full-size one as the miniature is being done at the same time. So there was two, there was the full-size puppet that was used. It was animatronic.

10:07John RosengrantIt had an RC head and eyes, and then w… we used rods for the body and the, and the arms and whatnot. And so whatever we could do, we did. And then what Jim needed to fill in, you know, when it smacks Reese and it comes up the stairs, and you're seeing full body shots of it moving at pretty, you know, good speed, all those things became stop motion. That was in the, in the first version.

10:39Jawad MirSo i… and tell me which ones are... Because I remember, I've seen the, original Terminator many times. The last time I probably saw it was last year. So the first time you see the emergence of, o… out of the fire, to me, that was stop motion, correct? Is that, am I wrong?

10:55John RosengrantNo, that was actually…

10:57Jawad MirNo. Okay

10:57John Rosengrant... That was actually ours, our puppet that comes up out of, out of the... They may…

11:03Jawad MirReally?

11:04John RosengrantIt may. I have to, I haven't seen it in a while, but I w… would have to probably see what the cut is. There probably is a stop motion one that rises up and walks out of the flame. But we shot, a s… a section where it's coming up and it's in flames, and 'cause I was puppeteering part of that with fire all around. I mean, we were really daring back in those days, you know? You just jumped in and…

11:35Jawad MirThat's the way to do it

11:36John Rosengrant... It was a $6 million movie. People really forget, how low budget that was.

11:45Jawad MirIt was low budget, but even at that time, $6 million was pretty good amount of money, right? But yeah, I mean, 'cause…

11:51John RosengrantNo, it was actually pretty tight.

11:53Jawad MirReally?

11:54John RosengrantIt was tight. Yeah. I mean…

11:55Jawad MirNo, when I say $6 million being big money, not in terms of the budget of your movie, but just in terms of the value of that, you know, $6 million.

12:03John RosengrantNo, there was, things were 30, 20, 30,000 and above. Aliens was made for 19 million.

12:11Jawad MirThat's right. That's true

12:12John Rosengrant... Made a couple years later.

12:13Jawad MirLater. That's true, too.

12:14John RosengrantYeah.

12:14Jawad MirThat's true, too. Good point. Good point.

12:16John RosengrantSo six million at the time is, actually was pretty low budget. And, you know, Jim did everything in his power to make that thing look real and believable. And I remember at the very end of the shoot, we went to Roger Corman's, where I think he got his start, and, you know, we used some of the sound stages there, and we built... Not we, but the art department…

12:45Jawad MirYeah

12:45John Rosengrant... Built little small sections of sets and, you know. By that time, Jim had pretty much cut the film together and was figuring out what he needed, what pieces he needed, and so that's what we were doing there. But, you know, to his roots, you know, that's where we ended up finishing the movie, and we shot in real locations as much as possible and, you know…

13:14Jawad MirGuerrilla style

13:14John Rosengrant... Some sound stage stuff as well.

13:17Jawad MirYeah, guerrilla style filming, which is…

13:20John RosengrantIt was

13:20Jawad Mir... Which is the way to go

13:21John RosengrantIt was guerrilla s… I mean, we were in downtown LA shooting a lot of that stuff where Reese arrives, and it was, it was pretty dangerous down there at that time.

13:32Jawad MirI bet. I bet.

13:33John RosengrantAnd, a couple of guys tried to, rob the stunt guy who was doubling for Reese, and that didn't work out real well for them because I think he was some ex-special forces guy or something.

13:47Jawad MirOh, wow.

13:47John RosengrantYeah. He made quick work of those guys. But it was, you know, it was quite the experience, you know, working with

13:58Jawad MirYeah

13:58John Rosengrant... Arnold Schwarzenegger at the time because he was a big star. Linda Hamilton was up and coming, and so was Michael Biehn.

14:05Jawad MirYeah.

14:06John RosengrantAnd then, you know, obviously by the time we got to T2, she was, a big star. But…

14:13Jawad MirSo was Schwarzenegger

14:14John Rosengrant... And of course Schwarzenegger became one of the biggest stars in…

14:19Jawad MirYeah

14:19John Rosengrant... The world. And by the time T2 came around, that was, he was on top of it all. He was on top of his game. But Terminator launched a lot of careers for us and, you know, I was in the right place at the right time with Stan and Jim, and couldn't have had two better, teachers, mentors.

14:45Jawad MirYou know, I agree with you about the right place at the right time. Everybody talks about that, and I sometimes think that's a little bit humbling on people's part to say, but obviously there's that hard work involved, right? And one thing that I was having is, it's funny you mention this, and it just kind of m… made me realize, remember something. I was having this conversation with somebody in the industry, and, we were talking about, you know, but not, I don't know if you've seen this whole OpenAI Sora thing where you just generate, you know, amazing video from text. Have you taken some, looked at some samples?

15:19John RosengrantNo, I haven't.

15:20Jawad MirOkay. It's, it's, it's gonna blow your mind. But anyways, that being besides the point, what we were talking about that a lot of people now in the industry, are sort of because of obviously, you know, you have to, you have to put food on the table and you're not getting work, then you're doing restaurant jobs and this job and you're kinda quitting, which is fine. Nothing wrong with that. Respectable. But I think one of the things that you talked about, $6 million budget and everybody working for peanuts, right? But even, like, looking at James Cameron's career, like, you know, even on, Titanic, he had a pay cut. I think, I don't remember the exact number, but he actually took a pay cut because he wanted to finish the film. A lot of people, including yourself, James Cameron, Stan Winston, everybody, all the people that have come to the point in their career and have a successful career, they look at the long-term game, right? You will, you will basically…

16:11John RosengrantIt is true. It is true

16:11Jawad Mir... You will cut your money or whatever you're making now so you can have a long-term career. But I find people now are always looking at short-term, like, you know, which I understand too, because you have to put food on the table. Things are expensive. But that's where things kinda go haywire, that if you're looking at your, you know, you wanna get paid $100,000, let's say, for directing a documentary or $1 million, you're not gonna do it because you have to get that pay and you're gonna give up on that, as opposed to doing a pay cut and then looking at long-term.

16:43John RosengrantI know personally I was very determined to make it in this business. I, it was a passion. I loved it. I wanted nothing more. And, you know, I had a small apartment. It cost me $200 a month. I slept on the floor in there, ate macaroni and cheese, did whatever it took, but I had this long-term goal that I wanted to make a career out of this. And, you know, a lot of people will warn you about it.

17:16Jawad MirRight.

17:16John RosengrantToday it's a, it's a whole different world. I think when I was getting into this, it was starting to blossom and bloom and, you know, I got in the heyday of, y… you know, practical effects because, I mean, there was no CGI. I mean, that came later. And my first, working with it was on the other Terminator movie, which was T2. And, you know, Jim was always good about embracing that and Stan was, too. Stan, was of the mindset that y… you know, don't fight it. Join it. You know, include it in there. And, you know, I learned a lot from being with... Stan was the perfect mentor for me, I feel, because he ran the shop like a true business, and I'd come from working in grocery stores and whatever before that, y… you know.

18:19John RosengrantAnd… I was used to, you know, a more formal way of working, and a lot of the effects shops in the early '80s were pretty willy-nilly. I mean, they would have, you know, time out where they'd all get drunk at…

18:36John Rosengrant... You know, 1 something, you know, in the afternoon, and they'd work all night or, you know, it was just different. And, you know, they'd take drug orders, and I mean, it was just a crazy kinda time. But Stan's shop wasn't like that. And there was a part of me that like… I liked that a lot. There was... It was more organized. You worked, I think it was 8:00 to 6:00, and then he really wanted you to go home and get rest. There was one time that Shane and I, he came back to the shop and we were in there at 9:00 still working on things, and he said to us, "You know, go home. I need you to be fresh. I need you to, get your rest so that when you come in, when you work, you're not tired or whatever." And, you know, I appreciated that. I learned a lot from Stan, and it was in alignment with my own work ethic and beliefs.

19:42John RosengrantAnd, but he, you know, he always wanted the art to, be first and important, but he also stressed to us what our role was in the overall film. You know, it was, as good as our effects are, without a great story and great direction or performances…

20:07John Rosengrant... And editing, great editor, we're nothing. And so we're one piece of the puzzle. And I think that bigger perspective helped me. I feel like it made me a better person. And, you know, watching someone like James Cameron working, he was so involved in every shot, every aspect of it. And, T2, the enormity of that film, it really became apparent. There was a lot of pressure on everybody on that film. That was a little different than the running gun. We're the new guys on, the first Terminator. On T2, I mean, it, I think the budget got up to, I don't know, it was a lot of money, $100 million or something like that, which was…

21:05Jawad MirYeah, I think so. I remember, I remember…

21:08John RosengrantWhich was enormous, you know, was the, was the top of the heap at that time. And, I remember doing over 200 different gags. When I'm saying gags, meaning they were either full-on puppets or they were little vignettes or little pieces or something blowing up, like the scene where, Arnold says, "Hasta la vista, baby," and he blows the Robert Patrick

21:39Jawad MirYeah

21:39John Rosengrant... T-1000 into bits. People always assume that's CG. Well, that was practical. And there was a lot of things in that movie that were practical, which you probably would do CG now. But at the time, it placed a lot of pressure on us, and there was a lot of pressure on everybody. Don't, I'm not whining or anything here.

22:03Jawad MirNo, of course. I know, I know.

22:04John RosengrantIt was just the truth was, and we also started filming a couple weeks early. So I, helping lead that team, we always felt a little bit behind in getting things done. And, you know, it was, it was hard. It was a, it was a hard shoot, long hours, tough locations. You know, we spent a lot of time in Fontana, California in a steel mill…

22:32John Rosengrant... Which they ended up selling off to the Chinese later. But we were in this abandoned steel mill. But I also remember hearing, you know, through my career that if they're easy, they won't be good. And this one…

22:52Jawad MirYeah

22:52John Rosengrant... Was not easy. And Terminator 1 wasn't easy, but it was just a different... I mean…

23:00Jawad MirYeah

23:00John Rosengrant... We were on top of it all at that point on T2, you know, coming in after doing Aliens and all these movies. And we were established on that part, point in time. So y… you know, fortunately, being young and energetic and full of, optimism and w… y… y… you know, it didn't daunt me. But I look back and T2 was probably one of the toughest movies I ever did, period. You know? And I remember, someone saying to me, I don't remember who it was, "You know, you're gonna work with Spielberg. He's really hard." And I was thinking, "Well, you know, I've, my film education has been with James Cameron. I can't imagine it's gonna be any more demanding or..."

24:04John RosengrantYou know, the way we were brought up working for Stan was that you just always brought your A game. You always gave…

24:11Jawad MirYeah

24:11John Rosengrant... 110%. And we were our own toughest critics on all these things. "Ah, we could do that better." You know? And… I… i… it's, it's a, it's a double-edged sword. I mean, it obviously makes you strive to become better and, you grow as an artist and you don't become complacent that way. But there's times when I think you have to have gratitude and just be thankful and

24:46Jawad MirRight

24:47John Rosengrant... And not be quite so hard. But if you do your best and you do everything you can, and there's lots of different circumstances that happen, but your job is to overcome those, these, things that could be considered, I don't know, pitfalls or,.. And it's, it's, you're always thinking on your feet and you're always on and you're always trying to come up with the best way to do it and get beyond whatever, you know, dilemma or problem is presenting itself, 'cause that's ultimately what you're getting paid to do is solve that problem and to come up with the best shot possible. And…

25:41Jawad MirYeah

25:41John Rosengrant... You know, something that I embraced is, and whatever that solution is, you know, if it's CG or if it's, practical, whatever the solution is, whatever's best for the film, that's what you need to do.

25:56Jawad MirYeah. I think going back to what you were saying about Terminator 2 being bigger than Terminator, first one obviously they were. You know, $94 million budget difference. But in the first one there was no expectations that you guys had to meet. Like, it was just like a, you know, from zero up.

26:12Jawad MirBut having B… that Terminator become such a cult classic even in those six years, there was a certain expectation. And Arnold Schwarzenegger obviously being a big deal. I still remember when it came out in 1991, I think it was, and I was in grade nine or 10, and, you know, John O'Connor's character being that age…

26:33Jawad Mir... A lot of young people related to that movie. You know, Jo… John O'Connor's…

26:38John RosengrantRight

26:38Jawad Mir... Character. Right? And I remember, I still remember just having everyone at school talking about that film. Not the... It wasn't even about T-1000. It wasn't even about Ar… Arnold Schwarzenegger. It was just, like, such a different thing to have witnessed. Like, you know, like Jurassic Park did with, you know, that dinosaur…

27:02John RosengrantYeah

27:02Jawad Mir... On us. Like, I think Terminator did that in a very s… unique w… Terminator 2 did that in a very unique way where it was just about this boy and his mom and his... You know, he was trying to make, be friends with this, you know, robot or, you know, what, Terminator…

27:18John RosengrantCyborg, yeah

27:18Jawad Mir... Cyborg. Yeah. And, yeah, it was incred… and it still is one of the greatest films, action films not even, but in gen… in general, films ever made. Right? Like, obviously the best Terminator.

27:32John RosengrantI, yeah, and I think credit goes to Jim for coming up with the storyline. You know, he turned it on its head. He went…

27:41Jawad MirYeah

27:41John Rosengrant... Took this villain, I'll be back, relentless, you couldn't stop him, and made him the good guy. And, no one…

27:49Jawad MirThat's a big d… difficult thing to do.

27:51John RosengrantYeah. It was really the opposite of what, you know, most sequels or anyone else would have thought of. And, you know, James Cameron did that in my opinion on Aliens as well. You have Ridley Scott's haunted house movie, which was a classic.

28:11Jawad MirYeah.

28:11John RosengrantAnd then James Cameron turned it into a epic sci-fi war film. And they're completely different, but yet both classics, and they live in the same space. And Terminator did the same thing in the, in this, not that it made a war classic out of it. B… but he took, you know, this idea, this world that he created and he made it work with a whole different storyline. And I think that's what's b… compelling first of all to the audience. And then when you pepper in, you know, really good performances and then if the special effects live up to what's, you know, is being asked of them to deliver, you know, then i… in cinematography and just everything has to gel…

29:09Jawad MirMusic

29:09John Rosengrant... Come together.

29:11Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Everything.

29:12John RosengrantAnd it makes for a classic movie. But you're right. I mean, he had this, what, 13-year-old boy, Eddie Furlong playing John Connor.

29:24Jawad MirYeah.

29:24John RosengrantAnd, you know, so he's got that audience, but me being older and, I could remember being that kind of teenager or... You know, everything, it rang true. And then, you know, Linda's story is compelling. You know, she's in a nuthouse 'cause…... She's, she's been called crazy.

29:51Jawad MirYeah.

29:51John RosengrantPeople would call them conspiracy theorists today.

29:54Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

29:55John RosengrantBut there's like…

29:55Jawad MirExactly

29:56John Rosengrant... Stuff's going on, and, she's just calling it like it is, but they're not seeing it that way.

30:03Jawad MirWhat's so great about…

30:06John RosengrantOh, go ahead.

30:06Jawad MirNo, sorry. What's so great about, I'm talking about, I wanna talk about, Schwarzenegger and playing the cyborg, a good guy and the bad guy, is that if you watch Terminator 1 and 2 back to back, doesn't matter which way, even though it's being played by Ar… Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though you know it's the same skin, you know, same facial structure of the cyborg who's a bad versus good, you still kind of… Don't... You can't, you cannot, at least for me, I cannot say that they're the same. It's, that is so crazy the way James Cameron did that because you, like you said, it's a separate universe, but the same one, but a separate universe and the same one. It is just, it's true mastercraft, like the way I look at it.

30:49Jawad MirLike, it's not easy to pull that off. But I think one of the things that if I, you know, nowadays and for the last long while, but there's always this talk about nuclear holocaust, right?

31:00John RosengrantRight.

31:01Jawad MirLike World War III. The only thing…

31:04John RosengrantAI.

31:05Jawad MirAI. But the only thing, John, that comes to my mind when I think about, God forbid if ever there is a nuclear war, and this is not in any way like I'm cherishing this, but the only image that comes to my mind is that dream that…

31:20John RosengrantSarah Connor

31:22Jawad Mir... Sequence of the nu… yeah, Sarah Connor, Linda Hamilton.

31:24John RosengrantYeah.

31:24Jawad MirAnd the how she's standing on the fence and she's warning people of, and the fire. Like, that's the image that comes to my mind, and that talks about the impact of this film has had i… as a cultural phenomenon, even in the most negative way…

31:37Jawad Mir... But that's how impactful it is. It's just amazing.

31:42John RosengrantYeah. I mean, and just the technical aspects of pulling off that effect, that was, that was a really difficult thing. We're, we're puppeteering it and we have, basically her skin made of papier-mâché so it could be obliterated, and cut up all these little scraps of black paper and put it in that would look like ash when it blew up. I mean, we had that going on, we had Terminators going on, we had, T-1000 effects. I mean, that movie, we were hopping.

32:21Jawad MirYeah.

32:21John RosengrantWe had a lot going on. And…

32:25Jawad MirYeah

32:25John Rosengrant... You know, one of my memories of that movie was that it was going on 24/7. And, you know, back when you had telephones, it would, you know, I'd get that call at like 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, and I'd pick up the phone and you could hear the, you know, walkies going off and the radios. And you knew it's, you know, someone's calling from set. And then it's the first AD or the second AD, "I think we're gonna get to the blah tonight." "Oh, really?" You know, it's like 3:00 in the morning. "Okay. And where is this?" And, "We're in Long Beach." And it's like, oh, God. All right. So you go to the shop, you gather up the stuff, you head down there. Whether you shot or not, it didn't matter. You had to be ready. And that was that film, you know? It was just constantly shifting and changing and morphing and...

33:27John RosengrantAnd I get it. You have to be prepared for, you know, if I get this two-hour window and I'm here, I could shoot this. So…

33:36Jawad MirYeah

33:37John Rosengrant... It makes you stronger though, these experiences.

33:43Jawad MirIt does. It does.

33:45John RosengrantIt does. It really does. Because after doing T2, I felt like I don't know if you can throw anything at me that I can't…

33:55Jawad MirYeah

33:55John Rosengrant... Can't come up with a solution for or deal with. And…

34:00Jawad MirIt is so true

34:02John Rosengrant... It made us, it made us better on lots of levels. And it prepared us for things that we did later. But you're trying to figure out these solutions and break that new ground. You're shooting a prototype basically, because you don't have that much time to test it, if at all.

34:24Jawad MirYeah.

34:24John RosengrantI mean, some things were done mere hours before they had to shoot, and you'd rush it down there and, you know, you'd just use everything you knew to pull that off and to try to make that work. And, you know, James Cameron understood, I think, what was going on, 'cause he'd been there in those trenches and understood that. But at the same time, you know, he's trying to pull this whole giant movie together. And, you know, Stan, would come down there and help, and he shot some second unit stuff too. And a different film than T1.

35:13Jawad MirYeah.

35:14John RosengrantYou know, same cast, same basic principles, things that, you know, we were proud of that we created. But, you know, we wanted to do better in this film, and the story was probably, you know, was right for the time, but it was, you know, full of cutting edge effects.

35:38Jawad MirTechnology, yeah.

35:39John RosengrantAnd, the infancy of CG, you know, is my first foray working with those guys. And, you know, Jim tailored the shots for CG with ILM that would work best for them. And, you know, the chrome man and morphing and changing and pouring into, you know, things that he had sort of pioneered with the water tentacle. But seeing the growth of all of these things, you know, the s… the T-1000 going through the bars and... He really understood the technology and what could be achieved at the time, and he wrote it that way. And I think being on that cutting edge… Whether it be the story or if it was effects was what helped propel that movie.

36:40Jawad MirYeah.

36:40John RosengrantAnd, if I'm not mistaken, Stan won an Oscar for both visual effects on…

36:46Jawad MirI think so

36:47John Rosengrant... Terminator and makeup on that, 'cause we had all these makeups going on too. You know, we had all this prosthetic makeup work, and we had all these stages of not only Arnold, you know, progressing or decomposing, coming apart, and revealing more and more of the endoskeleton throughout the movie. But we also had everything happening to the T-1000, so you had all this continuity and you had to figure out what you were, what you were doing there.

37:21Jawad MirYeah. You know, going…

37:22John RosengrantVery challenging.

37:23Jawad MirSorry. Go ahead.

37:25John RosengrantOn all levels.

37:26Jawad Mir100%. Going back to, you said something which is so true about it is being under pressure and then producing the best thing coming out of that, right? And I, and I couldn't agree with you more on that, and I attest to that because I learned that about... I mean, I kinda knew that about for a long time, but I think I actually applied it six, seven years ago, eight years ago. These two posters that you see in the back, two of my films that I did on human rights and are very dangerous conditions and everything.

37:57Jawad MirAnd I, it, they taught me, aside from making a good film and learning a lot on, you know, is that you have to push yourself to a very…

38:06John RosengrantYeah

38:06Jawad Mir... Uncomfortable spot to be able to get one step forward. Not to your goal, but one step forward, and that's something that I live with now. If there's something that I'm trying to do and it just feels…

38:17John RosengrantYeah

38:17Jawad Mir... Easy or a project, I don't, I don't get excited about it. And if it's something, you know, that has, I have to push and push and push, as difficult as it is and as annoying as it can be sometimes, it just,.. What's the word I'm looking for? It, I thrive on it, and I think that is so important that you have to put yourself in an uncomfortable position to be comfortable later on in life in any way that you can imagine.

38:46John RosengrantNo, it's true, and I think it happened to us, not consciously.

38:51Jawad MirYeah.

38:51John RosengrantI didn't set out for it to be…

38:53Jawad MirI know, I know

38:54John Rosengrant... Difficult or hard.

38:55Jawad MirYeah. But it's fun.

38:57John RosengrantBut, once it happens to you do grow and you…

39:02Jawad MirYeah

39:02John Rosengrant... It does bring out the best work in you.

39:04Jawad MirYeah.

39:05John RosengrantAnd it teaches you a lot of things. It ta… it taught me, and it taught our crew how to do things better in the future. You know, I'm not gonna make that mistake again. If you…

39:16Jawad MirYeah

39:16John Rosengrant... If you keep making the sta… same mistake over again…

39:18Jawad MirOf course. Yeah

39:20John Rosengrant... Then you deserve it.

39:21Jawad MirYeah.

39:22John RosengrantBut if it happens and you learn from it and you grow and, you become a better artist or better whatever…

39:31Jawad MirYeah

39:31John Rosengrant... Then it was a good teaching, good teaching moment, good learning moment.

39:40Jawad MirAnd I think it also helps you, when you put yourself against, in the corner in whatever that you do in life, or personal relationships or business or films or whatever, you discover something about yourself that you are capable of that you thought you weren't, and I think that's the key. I always find that interesting that we are capable as human beings of so much and each and every one of us, but we think we're not until we're tested against something, and I think that's the pivotal thing…

40:09John RosengrantTrue

40:09Jawad Mir... Of course, as well.

40:11John RosengrantI think we're te… we're tested to s… see and to teach us. You see…

40:17Jawad MirYeah

40:17John Rosengrant... There's lots of paths to go on in life. And going back to what you were saying, being at the right place at the right time, there's a crossroad that you come to and you have to make a decision. And, m… it's making, I guess it's that right decision, and then sticking to it and seeing it through. But there is that crossroad of, "All right, what am I gonna do now? Okay."

40:47Jawad MirYeah.

40:47John Rosengrant"Well, this is what I'm gonna do." And then taking those cards that are dealt with it and, you know, making a good hand out of it and never ever feeling sorry for yourself or playing…

41:03Jawad MirOh, God, yeah

41:03John Rosengrant... The victim.

41:04Jawad MirNo.

41:04John RosengrantThat gets you nowhere. It's, that's, that's a silly way to live, playing the victim.

41:11Jawad MirSelf-destructive mode. That's such a self-destruction mode. Like, I, yeah, I, it's, I'm glad you mentioned that. I talk about this to everybody all the time. It's like you do not... No, because everybody goes through crap. Everybody goes through crap. It's life. It's life. You know, going back to Terminator, I, you talked about that sequence where Schwarzenegger says, "Hasta la vista, baby." I remember, I, and I, you know, there's just those moments that in your life when you remember, and in my case, aside from other things, just watching movie experiences because that's, that's who I am, you know, storyteller. When I remember when that scene happened and, you know, T-1000 exploded, and it cut to different angles, you know, where everything getting shattered. What was so great about that sequence and the film itself was I actually thought that was it. I thought, "Okay, he's gone." You know, I thought that, I thought that was the ending of the film. Now when he started coming back together, I'm like, "If this is not gonna kill him, what the hell is gon… like how is Jim..."

42:17Jawad MirYou know, I'm a general James…

42:18John RosengrantWell, Jim became famous for that. He did it…

42:20Jawad MirYeah

42:20John Rosengrant... In Terminator. There was false endings where you thought, "Oh, surely this thing is done." "We just saw this tractor-trailer blow up. It must be done."

42:34Jawad MirYeah.

42:34John RosengrantBut yet it r… the phoenix rises up out of the fire. Oh, sorry

42:40Jawad MirThat's okay. But to top that, it's, it's one thing to have a false ending, but then you wonder, "Okay, what is gonna kill this thing?" Right? And sometimes…

42:50John RosengrantRight

42:50Jawad Mir... Sometimes that ending, whatever, in this case Terminator 2 where he's shot, you know, right in the center of the core and he explodes, sometimes that could m… that may not be as powerful as…

43:02John RosengrantRight

43:03Jawad Mir... What it could've been. But that scene itself, okay, now it makes sense. He got hit in the core. There was no explanation needed, and he exploded. And that's, like, that top…

43:13John RosengrantHe falls in the fire

43:14Jawad MirYeah. And then he falls in the fire.

43:16John RosengrantAnd he melts.

43:16Jawad MirYes. Yeah, and he melts. But it was just, it's just amazing, you know. I, and I know we can talk about this for hours, but it's just…... Amazing stuff…

43:26John RosengrantSure

43:26Jawad Mir... You guys have done, John. I mean, yeah, I talked about this to you last time too. A lot of people's memories, especially in the world of film, is connected to a lot of films that you have worked on. Like, you know, it's…

43:40John RosengrantSure

43:40Jawad Mir... Especially mine and, you know, all the titles, I can go on and w… the list will never end. And it seems like you have truly enjoyed working on these films. And, you know, you're very... And I, one of the things I've noticed in our conversation, you're very grateful to Stan and Jim, but especially Stan obviously because you were worked side by side with him for 25 years.

44:02John RosengrantWell, they gave me an opportunity. And, you know, once again it's that crossroad, what are you gonna do with it? And…

44:11Jawad MirYeah

44:11John Rosengrant... I watched a lot of other people come up with me that had that opportunity and didn't do anything with it. And, you know, I was grateful for the opportunities, grateful for the mentors, grateful for the journey.

44:30Jawad MirYeah. No. Thank you, John. I know your life is different now. You know, you're living your ar… artistic career, like scul… doing sculptures. If, do you, do you wanna talk about that briefly? What do you do? Or is that something you would rather not share? Tell me if that…

44:46John RosengrantNo. It's, it's, it's an… another passion I had as a teenager, you know, it was film and doing the special effects. But it was sculpting military miniatures and I was always into that. And it's just, I don't know, there's a freedom now. I'm just in charge. I can do whatever I wanna do. I don't have to be involved with a committee of people and…... Just... A… and early on in my career I felt like that committee was really great. Later on, not always. There was the John Favreaus and The Mandalorian's experience and all that, which I have a lot of respect for, but there was other things where it just, it's like, "can I see your portfolio?

45:47John RosengrantBecause your ideas aren't very good." but, you know, it's, the film business changed.

45:57Jawad MirYeah.

45:57John RosengrantYou know, from the time when we were doing the T2s and the Terminators and Aliens and Jurassic Park, it's so, such a corporate adventure now that the auteurs and just getting it done and doing what you needed to do to make a movie, it's, it's a different process now. And, I'm, I'm, I'm glad I got to see all of those aspects. I watched that series recently.

46:33Jawad MirWhich one?

46:34John RosengrantThe Offer.

46:35Jawad MirOh.

46:35John RosengrantThe making of The Godfather.

46:37Jawad MirAmazing series. Loved it.

46:39John RosengrantGreat series. You know, I watched The Godfather again. It's, it is one of the best films, but I felt like watching what was going on there, I mean, obviously we didn't have, as far as I know, the mob or any of that going on. But, I could relate, you know, with the Terminators and a lot of these movies, you know, seeing Francis Ford Coppola's choices and what, his determination to make the best film. I could draw a lot of comparisons to, you know, what I was living, and it felt like there was that... I'm glad I got a taste of that where you had these great filmmakers being able to just have their way with making a great film. And it was supported. And producers seemed to have the mindset to spend every penny they had on the film, not on their back end or not on whatever.

47:47John RosengrantAnd…

47:48Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

47:50John Rosengrant... It's, in long term, and I think there was a line in that movie, I don't know if it was Robert Evans or who w… you know. But if it's not any good, no one's gonna come see it and it's not gonna make any money. And at the end of the day, what makes a good movie, you'll, you'll reap that later. It's making that decision to, do what's best for the film. And, you know, I always try to live that. Film, television show, whatever it may be. But I think it does get lost, or it has, some of that has gotten lost.

48:34Jawad MirYeah.

48:34John RosengrantThat passion maybe not, or it's misdirected. It's, it's about money and, ancillary things that go with it rather than… Making a film that will live on. Anyway…

48:50Jawad MirAnd…

48:50John Rosengrant... That's my soapbox.

48:50Jawad MirAnd, no. N… no, John, you, it goes back to what we were talking about the long-term game, right? Like, I truly…

48:57John RosengrantYeah

48:57Jawad Mir... Believe that, you know, ins… this is the way I think. I would not want to have an amazing career right off the bat. You know what I mean? Like, sometimes you get, like, a really good break, like when you are not even ready for it, and then things don't fall go…

49:15John RosengrantRight

49:15Jawad Mir... Click and down the, right down the road. I truly believe everything is long-term in life, whether it's career or your personal relationships, and the more you struggle now, the more benefits that you're gonna reap later on. And, you know, for the film industry, just like any other industry nowadays, I mean, you can name every… you know, from journalism to pharmaceutical to film, everything has become more about the money than…

49:41Jawad Mir... About the actual, you know, the drive of doing what you wanna do to treat a patient or to tell the right news or to tell a great story. And these films, I don't know, maybe I have grown older and I think that way, and I don't know any film in the last 20 years that... Maybe there are a few, but I can't remember, that I can remember now. But I do remember movies from the '60s, not that I'm that old, but I've seen them, from the '60s up until the mid 2000s that I can…

50:18Jawad Mir... Put my hand on and say these were great film. Because they were really, they are really great film, whether they failed at the box office or not. Shawshank Redemption is a great example. Everybody didn't, didn't like that film.

50:30John RosengrantBlade Runner…

50:30Jawad MirBlade Runner

50:30John Rosengrant... Wasn't a financial success when it came out.

50:33Jawad MirRight.

50:33John RosengrantBut I remember seeing that movie and just going, "Wow, this thing is amazing." And then reading afterwards it was not a huge financial success. I didn't accept that. It was just like, no, this is a great film. And you know, it's gotten that recognition now. But I don't know, we're all souls. We're not w… and we put our, a little piece of that soul into these movies. At least that's what I did, and that's what I saw going on around me when I was coming up in this business. And it, I was always of the mindset, I'm, this is amazing, I'm getting paid to do what I wanna do.

51:21Jawad MirYes. Yes.

51:23John RosengrantAnd I wasn't looking at, you know, particularly when you're starting out, you're not looking at, you know, I need to be making X amount of dollars. It was like, wow, I'm getting paid to sculpt and paint and create a, possibly an iconic character will live on? Those, that's the opportunity.

51:49Jawad MirAnd I think you nailed it because a lot of times now people in the new generation, they wanna get paid top of the line, I don't know if it is because YouTube or whatever it is, you know, before they even are ready to accept that. And that, it's just, again, it's just about finding your place and doing the best that you can. And like what you said, and I'm gonna end it on this, otherwise we'll continue never ending, is that…... That's something I talked to a couple of my friends as well. N… not in a way that, you know, it's money. Money is obviously important, but getting paid to do what I love, there's, and then getting to tr… and then obviously you have to travel because depending on where you're filming, and getting that covered as well, there is no better life than that. This is it. Like, the, I g… even if I don't make it to that point where I want to make, this is an amazing life, and just enjoy it. And that's, there's nothing better than that.

52:48John RosengrantIt's a great journey. It's a great journey.

52:50Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Thank you so much, John. Appreciate it.

52:53John RosengrantYeah. You're very welcome.

52:54Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.