'28 Days Later', Composer, John Murphy

0:05Jawad MirThank you so much again for last time. It was phenomenal. I had a great time chatting with you, and we got some great, emails from our listeners as well. They thoroughly enjoyed your journey and your stories. So…

0:18John MurphyAmazing

0:18Jawad Mir... I figured might as well join, and start talking to you about the other two projects than from a while ago, right? So…

0:25John MurphyYeah. Yeah.

0:26Jawad MirYeah. So maybe we can just start with 28 Days. How did you get on board that project? It's been a while. It came out in early 2000.

0:38John MurphyYeah. Yeah. I'd, I'd done two films with Danny for the BBC, very… ... Kind of art house, projects which, you know, passion projects for him. One of them was Stooges, and the other one was called Vacuuming Completely Nude in Paradise, which is probably the best title of any film I've ever worked on. So, you know, it was a lot of fun. We d… we got on very well creatively. And he mentioned something else was coming up, to keep myself available and one day I got a call when I was in Los Angeles. And I forget the exact words he said, but it was something like, "I'm doing a zombie home movie." "And no one seems interested yet, so we can do what we want with the music. So are you interested?" So, and of course, I said, "Yeah, it sounds perfect."

1:45John MurphyAnd then he… when he was ready, he sent me some footage, and it was, it was the most shocking thing I've ever seen at, you know, in terms of what I would be working on. In… incredibly raw, very visceral, n… nothing like anything I'd ever seen.

2:08Jawad MirYeah

2:09John Murphy... And it was much more disturbing than any zombie film I'd ever seen, that's for sure. And I was, you know, I was intrigued by this and the idea, and I knew Alex Garland. And I'd read the script at that point, and I knew this was... I knew it was something special. You know, we had no idea that the film would be so important for the genre. And the funny thing was, I mean, after that very first call from Danny where he gave this very, you know, understated, typically northern English downplayed, description of what he was doing, we never, ever used the word zombie ever again because it was clear even when I read the script that it, you know... For me it was always a road movie. It was an apocalyptic road movie.

3:08Jawad MirYeah.

3:08John MurphyAnd, you know, we never, ever used the zombie word ever again. The, you know, the Z word. 'Cause it was clear that it was something very different from that. And that's basically how it happened. Yeah, he just, he just called me up one day, and that was his, that was his description of what he was doing, which was typical Danny, you know? I mean, Danny's not Hollywood at all. He downplays everything.

3:33Jawad MirYeah.

3:33John MurphyAnd that was how it happened.

3:35Jawad MirIt was a very groundbreaking film. So ob… obviously when it came out I saw it, but I had forgotten most of it. And then I saw it during COVID. You know, the idea of, just everything kind of being shut down and, you know, no, there's nobody out there, and especially, you know, watching, downtown streets of London, like Westminster area and everywhere, like, you know, where it was completely nobody there. Obviously, you know, they shot at a certain time with minimal traffic and obviously got some…

4:09John MurphyYeah

4:09Jawad Mir... Permission and what. But it was... Again, I never thought of it as a zombie movie. It's funny you mention that because there was so much more to that film. And that kind of set the... Not saying that those kind of films didn't exist before, but in the past they were less ch… character driven, more just kinda like zombies attacking people.

4:31John MurphyYeah.

4:31Jawad MirIt started this trend, you know, with so many other films and even... I don't know if you've seen the new series on HBO, The Last of Us.

4:40John MurphyI haven't. I really want to see that because, there was a point when I was getting asked to do video games. And, you know, I'd still love to do a video game one day. And I remember talking to a few friends who were in the industry.

5:00John MurphyAnd everybody said to me, "You know, if you're talking about the music, you really should listen to the score for The Last of Us." so without playing the game or anything, I, you know, I asked my son, Jude, who's, who's, you know, a gamer, and he said, "Yeah, this, the music to The Last of Us is amazing." So I, you know, I listened to the soundtrack for it, and I was... It's beautiful. It's amazing. So I always thought that would be the first game that I would play 'cause I've still never played one without, you know, apart from sitting with my son and trying to play stuff. So when I saw that they'd made this series, I thought, "I've, yeah, I've really gotta watch that," you know? 'Cause it just seemed like an amazing idea and, you know, that would be the first sort of game I ever play when I do get round to it. But yeah, I do wanna see the show for sure.

5:51Jawad MirYeah, it's, it's, it's a good, eight, nine episodes, I think it was. And, it reminded me a lot of 28 Days only, you know, obviously it was a longer format with… Much more character development and epis… e… episodic. But with "28 Days," Later, it was just… it was the sheer… There was just something that, the… there was a lot of... I don't wa… I use this word a lot because that kinda set the trend, the Spielberg and Jaws, like how the shark was never visible to the audience for a long time until the last act. And, you know, there was that obviously, "28 Days Later" wasn't in that kinda duration, but there, that element was there of not knowing what the hell is going on.

6:43John MurphyYeah.

6:43Jawad MirYou know? Like all I remember when I watched it again during COVID was it had to do with a virus, and there are some, you know, for the lack of better word, zombies. That said, that was my memory of it. And then when I saw it again, it was just incredible. Maybe because I saw it during COVID, I don't know.

6:59John MurphyYeah.

6:59Jawad MirBut it w… it hit hard so much. Like, it was just right on the point in every which way.

7:05John MurphyYeah. I mean, the whole opening, the tension that's dragged out is, you know, it's very Hitchcockian, you know? The…

7:11Jawad MirYeah

7:11John Murphy... You know, to sort of really drag the audience to the point where w… you know, where they can't take any more suspense, you know? It's like letting the audience do the work. It's like let them get fearful and let them get tense and, you know, that whole, that whole opening was perfect. It's just one of those perfect ways to sort of bring you into that world.

7:36Jawad MirYeah. And I…

7:38John MurphySo well, good stuff.

7:39Jawad MirWait, go on.

7:40John MurphyI'm just saying there's a lot of things in that movie whi… which absolutely, you know, did not fall into the typical zombie…

7:49Jawad MirFor sure. Yeah

7:51John Murphy... You know, sort of structure.

7:52Jawad MirI know what you mean.

7:53John MurphySo, you know, it made it easier for me to work with.

7:57Jawad MirAnd speaking of, you know, your work in that, I listened to the score a few times again, and there was just… it… I'm gonna have a difficult time explaining it, but I'm gonna do my best. There was somewhat of calmness in it, yet terror. You know, and it was… it had that feeling of the '80s kind of music, at least the, this, the sound of it. What was your inspiration, if any, when trying to sort of come up with the, this, you know, the theme and the tracks and all that?

8:35John MurphyWell, the ins… the only real inspiration for the music was the script and, you know, the film itself. You know, as soon as you step out of that template, you know…

8:56Jawad MirYou're not thinking of new

8:56John Murphy... You've got to do something that is as original as the movie was, then there's no reference points, and then that's suddenly a wonderful place to be because, you know, when you're not thinking, "Oh, I don't wanna be as..." You know, let the side down here by it not being as great a score as this type of film…

9:21Jawad MirYeah

9:21John Murphy... That was the same genre. You know, the minute you sort of feel like you're doing something new w… with a project, the… you sort of catch the drift, you know? You sort of don't know where it's gonna go, so... And that's the most creative place to be. So there wasn't any reference points at all…

9:42John Murphy... Working on that film. You know, we just didn't know what was gonna work. And the funny thing is the very first version of the score,.. I mean, Danny had the idea of what if we sort of, you know, had a score that was just basically snippets of… he called it de… you know, debris floating around the earth of, you know, like bits of radio broadcasts and bits…

10:15John Murphy... Of sounds from the past and all of these things that were part of the culture of the world that were now disintegrating, and that would be our score. And I thought this was phenomenal. I was… You know, it reminded me of when Hitchcock asked Bernard Herrmann to score "The Birds" and Herrmann said, "Why would you want music in this? Let's just get sound effects of bird noises, and I'll work with that." Which, I mean, this was what? You know, 80 years ago.

10:48John MurphyHe was that far ahead of his time, Bernard Herrmann, that he realized that the best way to score the music for "The Birds" was to actually have no music and to use sound design. You know, I mean, he was doing that then. So when Danny suggested this to me that we just have these bits of lo-fi disintegrated sounds drifting in and out the ether, I thought that was amazing. So, you know, I get… I got to work with, you know, I got these old Bakelite radios and I was feeding bits of music through them and, you know, I remember having a microphone on a stick and I was waving it around like the sort of Beatles thing in Sgt. Pepper's. And yeah, I recorded all of this crazy stuff. You know, I was recording music, bits of music, as music, and then we were putting them through these Bakelite radios and then recording them by swirling the microphone around. You know, completely gratuitous and, you know... And it was amazing. Some of the stuff we got was just phenomenal.

11:49John MurphyBut when we put it in the s… score in the movie, you know, there was a moment where we both kinda loved it, and we both kinda realized that maybe the movie does need a little bit of music somewhere. 'Cause, you know… As much as we loved it was, you know, it felt like w… you know, it was just an amazing, you know, art house movie then rather than a big emotional dramatic work. And then we sort of said, "Yeah, it's awesome, but maybe we do need a few bits of music in there too." But, you know, the nice thing is some of that stuff actually stayed in the film. You know, the opening sequence…

12:36Jawad MirYeah

12:36John Murphy... With the Jeep, and you have all that blast of radio and static, that was me. You know, that was part of the score that we were, which we created.

12:47Jawad MirAh.

12:48John MurphyBut, you know, people go, "What's that sound effects?" It's, no, it's actually, I would, you know, I was grabbing snippets of these sounds that I'd made with these Bakelite radios and distort them. We were putting radio broadcasts through fuzz pedals, and I mean, everything I do goes through a fuzz pedal at some point. And then we were like, you know, pasting them together like a collage. So that stayed, and there was some of the, you know, the bits and pieces we'd recorded, you know, do appear in and out of the score.

13:17Jawad MirYeah.

13:18John MurphySo you know, it wasn't all for nothing. Some of it stayed, but, you know, we both realized that there was moments where we needed some real emotion, you know. Like, you know, the scenes around Frank when, you know, when the crow…

13:35Jawad MirYeah

13:35John Murphy... Drops the blood and it goes in his eye and obviously the big ending and,.. So you know, it ended up being kind of a hybrid between this very original idea of the detritus floating around the ether and then some bits of music. But you know, it ended up, it was just experimentation and it kind of ended up very much its own thing. And…

14:01Jawad MirYeah

14:01John Murphy... One of the other ideas was, w… so I think I watched, you know, one zombie film just to make sure that I was not doing anything that was too clichéd and that had been done before. And while I was watching, I had a thought, you know, 'cause you typically with the music to a classic zombie film, you know, you have the quiet bits where there's no music.

14:30Jawad MirYeah.

14:31John MurphyAnd then you have the explosions of violence, and then the music comes in. And I thought, "Well, wouldn't it be cool to do the opposite of that?" So instead of having music when we had the, you know, the real visceral violence sections, we had, you know, we just don't do any music there. But when it goes to the quiet sections, the more reflective sequences, that's when the music comes in, and I thought that might be a good way to kind of humanize the characters.

14:58Jawad MirYes.

14:59John MurphySo it's kind of like an inverted version of a zombie score. It's like it was the opposite to what you're supposed to do, and y… you know, I sort of talked to Danny about this, and he said, "Let's try it." So, and that's kind of how we did it. Y… and I think that set the film up in a different way 'cause you'd have these beautiful moments where they were just these humans trying to survive, and then when it got to the, you know, the violent stuff, we just left it to the, to the screams and the effects. And for me, that was way more terrifying, you know? So

15:34Jawad MirYeah

15:35John Murphy... You know, once we'd established that, you know, the rest of it became, you know, kind of obvious what to do even though I was always trying to find different ways of like sonically how to do this. But you know, the whole score is very lo-fi really. Apart from the, you know, the end sequence, the rest of it's quite lo-fi, and even when, you know, I'd record things in a lo-fi way, you know, we'd typically ended up compressing it more and, you know, doing whatever we could to just fuck the sound up, you know? Just to make it feel like even the music was deta… you know, disintegrating and falling apart. But it was, yeah, I mean, it was a lot of fun to... I mean, I love all that stuff, you know. I mean, I'll just do that all day if you let me.

16:26Jawad MirYeah, no, it makes so much sense, you know, the lack of, sometimes the lack of music. If you look at films, like Jurassic Park, the very first one, the very…

16:39John MurphyYeah

16:39Jawad Mir... First time we see T-Rex, that entire sequence, I mean, I realized this five, six years ago, I didn't even pay attention to it. There is no music. I mean, it's just literally playing on rain, T-Rex. And similar thing with Cast Away. I was talking to, a cinematographer of, Cast Away, Don Burgess, who's worked quite a bit with Robert Zemeckis, and you know, they kept trying to figure out what w… music throughout the film, and then they just realized, "Why don't we just take the music out?" And the first time you hear the music is when he actually, you know, tries to leave the island. But it's the sound effects are so important, whether you're making a film, narrative, documentary. You know, even hearing someone opening a drawer while they're talking adds so much to your, to your characters, to the, to the personality of the film, and people don't realize that.

17:40Jawad MirBut n… nothing, no disrespect to music. Music is obviously very essential. But sometimes less of it, especially in this case, and I noticed that with this film, is that, you know, normally there are those scary moments and you'll hear pin drop silence, and you know there's gonna be a loud music coming up as soon as somebody appears from behind the curtain or something. But you don't get that in this film. And that's…

18:04John MurphyYes

18:04Jawad Mir... Where I think the audience, and that in… that reverse approach worked because aside from being a great film, the audience wasn't expecting. They were expecting the norm…

18:13John MurphyYeah

18:14Jawad Mir... Which they didn't get.

18:14John MurphyYeah, I mean… It's funny you mention that 'cause I have this argument sometimes with directors. Or I used to have this argument with directors. You know, sometimes the most powerful device that music can use in a movie is to stop, you know? It's actually just to stop being there.

18:42Jawad MirYeah.

18:43John MurphyBecause that in itself creates a tension…

18:46Jawad MirTension, so much

18:47John Murphy... That it you can't really get from just, you know, you can't take the sound effects. I mean, you can take the sound effects away. But when, with music because it means something differently to people. You know, that moment when you suddenly stop, you know something's gonna happen. You know, and you allow that beat for it to sort of register. But yeah, I mean, you know, the Coen brothers are brilliant examples of that. I mean, the way they use sound design. You know, because they, realize that y… it's all about telling the story, you know, foley sound effects music. We're all telling a story.

19:27Jawad MirYeah.

19:27John MurphyAnd sometimes you tell that story clearer by, you know, allowing one thing to take over because there's only so much information that somebody watching a movie can take before it starts to become less of a clear idea. So, you know, it's like when you see movies and suddenly all of the sound effects go and it just becomes music. It's just a montage. It tells a different story…

19:56Jawad MirYeah

19:56John Murphy... When you take everything else out, and it's incredibly powerful, and it's the same the other way around. It's like when you stop the music and you just go to the, and you suddenly hear someone, you know, breathing, you b… it becomes claustrophobic and it, you know, it's as if the camera is, like, pulled right up close, you know? So it's just knowing when and where to give way, where, you know, who, you know, who should take over now. Should this be the music? And I can usually see it even reading the script, you know, where the music should, you know, take a step back to the effects and vice versa. It's just knowing when to hand over.

20:36Jawad MirYeah.

20:36John MurphyBut yeah, I mean, I, one of my favorite scores has the least amount of music of anything, which is The Godfather. You know, it's like the... It's just like 20 minutes can go in The Godfather and you hear no music. And then after all that time, you suddenly hear that little mournful, "Da." It's terrifying because you've then become conditioned to not hearing any musical instrument, and you hear that one little thing, and the sheer absence of everything up to that point makes that entry devastating and you know, oh, you know, death is imminent. You know, something's gonna go down. So it's, for me, you know, less is more with music. I don't think I've ever done a movie where I haven't felt that we didn't have too much music. And it's, it's always better when you have that daylight, you know, or that realism.

21:38John MurphyBecause again, with the other big seesaw with a movie in terms of music is, you know, how that thing of reality and then being cinematic and we think of cinematic movies as being, you know, the big score and everything. So when you… But to have that impact, you ha… you know, you do have to come away sometimes and let the realism take over before the super realism comes back in when you introduce music again. So it really is, you know, you've just gotta find those moments really. But yeah, I'm a big fan of no music, ironically. You know, a big fan…

22:19Jawad MirWell, I…

22:21John MurphyGreat for the movie, you know?

22:23Jawad MirIt makes so sense. You know, I'm just, like, talking to you and I'm thinking about some of the films that come to my mind where it had the least amount of music, but the theme stood out. Scent of a Woman with Al Pacino and Chris O'Donnell, which was directed by Martin Brest, and then Peter Weir's, Dead Poets Society with, Ethan Hawke and Robin Williams.

22:44John MurphyThey're great examples.

22:45Jawad MirYeah. And the whole thing with sound is that, you know, it's so funny, how I discovered this making films is that, you know, when you're, when you're making even documentaries and you're following a subject or subjects, and you have their, you know, audio interview playing in the background, but if the action is happening on the screen, the… when you hear sound effects, whatever it is, whether they're starting the car…

23:14John MurphyYeah

23:14Jawad Mir... Whether they're, you know, riding a boat or just footsteps, it is… And I've done this. I've, I've actually turned the sound effects off on the track and just let the person talk and with some music, and it's just totally horrible.

23:33John MurphyWeird.

23:33Jawad MirIt doesn't, it doesn't work.

23:36John MurphyYeah.

23:36Jawad MirIt just doesn't work. But to have a bit of everything, you know, provided where it's required, makes a huge lot of difference.

23:44John MurphyYeah. I mean, every good director knows this and, you know, a lot of it is informed by, you know, where's the camera pointed, you know? You've gotta, you know, see. I mean, you know, one of the things I learnt along the way, is, you know, if you're ever stuck with music, you know, just always look at where the camera's pointing, you know?

24:09John MurphyYou know, follow the camera. If it, if it still is up on someone's head, then you know there's a moment where we're meant to feel the… we're meant to understand what's happening internally, you know? And that can be effects or that can be music. But, you know, by the minute the camera starts moving You know, that could be the place to bring the music in because we're, you know, evolving into something. So, you know, I mean, it's always… You can usually figure it out from the script. But the minute you see the scene, I always watch what the camera's doing. You know, is it still? Is it looking at this? Is it… You know, if the camera's suddenly looking at a clock, then you know you were gonna hear the clock. So you're sort of leading the audience. You're telling the story to the audience. But really we're all just kind of following the camera as well.

24:55Jawad MirYeah.

24:55John MurphySo that in…

24:58Jawad MirThat's smart

24:59John Murphy... Better than anything can, you know, it's why, you know, I mean, in the old days, you know, I'd, I'd, you know, I'd put the film on and go, "Okay." And then I'd sort of play away or play away. But, you know, now it's, it's I'm constantly I'm, I'm writing as I'm looking up at the screen.

25:17Jawad MirThat's in… that's interesting.

25:19John MurphyAnd I'm filling it. And, I mean, when I'm writing stuff I always have the effects and dialogue in, always. You know, because only then can you… Because if you don't, then you could be overloading information.

25:33Jawad MirYeah.

25:33John MurphyYou know, if it's clear that something is happening, and the effects are all telling you that this is happening, and the dialogue is, you don't have to then overload that same idea with the music. So you look at what the music might mean to this person and y… and you figure out, "Well, what other information can I give the audience here that's, that maybe the effects can't give or the, or the dialogue, you know, can't give? What's the true meaning behind what this guy is saying?" And then the audience can… The music can then find these little inroads to something else. And then that's when a scene becomes rich. If you're just doing it… You know, if you're just doing a musical equivalent of the sound effects, then you're just overloading the information, you know, one part of the information. So yeah, I mean, I always have everything playing when I'm writing, because then I can figure out the, you know, the right way to weight a piece of music.

26:35John MurphyYou know what I mean? If something is incredibly sad in the narrative there, then, you know, you don't always have to be so sad with the music because we're already being given that information, you know? So, you know, and that's something I learned along the way, and it's something I always try to tell, you know, composers who are, you know, breaking through.

26:54Jawad MirYeah.

26:54John MurphyYou know, "Don't look down, look up, 'cause this is what the audience is seeing. And listen, play, you know, keep the effects and dialogue up, 'cause this is the experience that the audience is gonna have. Find the places where you can support that and make a difference." You know, just sitting there jamming away isn't gonna mean anything. You've gotta work with it. Always work with it, and always work with the story. You know, we don't write to picture. Even though we're watching the picture, you know, we're, we're writing to story, and we use the picture to find the places where we can tell the musical side of the story.

27:32Jawad MirAgreed. Agreed. When you're writing a s… a score, has there been, in, on any film, a certain scene came and you're trying to figure out, you know, what should go in here, whether it's drama, whether it's comedy? Have you ever been sort of connected to a personal part of your life, and then that sort of comes out of, from a special place, that track or that theme?

28:02John MurphyYeah. I mean, most of the time, I think. You know, I think that's where the best stuff comes. You know, you can't just look at a scene and go, "Oh, this is a…"

28:17Jawad MirRight

28:17John Murphy..."guy beating another guy up, and he's scared." but…

28:20Jawad MirIs there an example of something like that you can recall?

28:24John MurphyYeah. I mean, I remember in… I mean in, you know, in one way or another, you know, without, you know, sort of digging into personal stuff…

28:38Jawad MirThat's fine

28:38John Murphy... The first thing I try to do is, you know, is understand why the character is feeling this way. Because, you know, what music can do that effects and s… you know, stuff can't do is, you know, is get at the real emotions and, you know, get inside the head. So yeah, I mean, I always imagine what it would feel like to be in that situation. Like, you know, even though the beginning of 28 Days Later used that great track from Godspeed, you know, the first thing I tried to do was to try to understand what I would feel like if I woke up and my family were gone. And, you know, what that would mean. And when Jim goes to find his parents, and he knows they're gonna be dead.

29:36John MurphyAnd he gets there, and they're both lying with each other, and they leave the note. I was in tears, not because it was a sad scene, but because I felt like what would that have been like, you know, if it was me. And they leave the note going, you know, this beautiful, sad note that they left for him. And I understood his desire to get there. So yeah, I mean, you… I'm always putting myself in that position, and I think that's why I'm exhausted by the end of every movie. You know, because, you know, you're feeling… You're putting yourself in that position. And the same, you know, with Guardians. The… One of my favorite scenes is when, towards the end, when Rocket… When they're trying to get all the animals off the…

30:22Jawad MirYeah

30:22John Murphy... The ship, and he stops, and he remembers this big room. He remembers that's where he grew up. When he was a, when he was a kid and he remembers that's where his first family was and his friends and what happened, and he starts… he's just instantly drawn towards walking towards these cages where, you know, he began his life. And yeah, I mean, I, you know, I completely put myself in that situation and, you know, and understand how difficult it can be to face your own childhood and understand things that didn't make sense at the time. And, you know, so, you know, I was walking towards those cages. I completely was, what would it feel like for me? And I'm going back to the very beginning, to my very first memories and you know, so the music was written from that.

31:22John MurphyIt wasn't me writing, you know…

31:25Jawad MirSure

31:25John Murphy... About a raccoon. It was, it was writing about me. And in that moment when he, when he realizes what he really is, and he accepts that, you know, acceptance is some… is one of the hardest things we can ever do in life.

31:38Jawad MirYeah.

31:38John MurphyWhen he accepts that, everything becomes simpler, and the…

31:42Jawad MirIsn't that funny though, right? Like accepting something is such a simple thing, yet we spend our life trying to unaccept something.

31:49John MurphyI know. And we won't have something in our psyche that is terrified of accepting what we really are. And, you know, we, you know, we strive for it, but it's that thing, you know, what you want the most is you gotta walk towards your fear and it… we're all terrified of that, you know, m-more than mortality or anything, I think. So yeah, in those moments, I mean, that was an example in that movie and you know.

32:18Jawad MirSure.

32:19John MurphyYou know, and Sunshine, you know, the big scene where he has to make that decision of to save the world, he's gotta…

32:28Jawad MirYeah

32:28John Murphy... Sacrifice himself, and you know, what would be going through his head. And again, I, you know, I, you know, it was like, "Would I do that?" You know, "Could I sacrifice myself?"

32:39Jawad MirSure.

32:40John MurphyAnd you know, at that moment it wouldn't be the rest of the world that y-you were trying to save. It would just be the people that you loved. So that moment when he puts the suit on and he goes, "I gotta do this, and I gotta get to the other ship, and I gotta, you know, launch the payload," it's, it's, you know, I was in that suit. You know, I mean, I'm melodramatic at the best of times, and coming from Liverpool, we're kind of that way anyway.

33:04Jawad MirI know. It's, I think…

33:06John MurphyBut it helps, you know, I mean, if you can really feel what it would feel like, then that's the truest well to draw from. Otherwise, you're just writing to picture. Otherwise, you're just writing about a guy in a spacesuit doing a cool job.

33:20Jawad MirRight.

33:20John MurphySo for me it's…

33:21Jawad MirAnd it…

33:22John Murphy... Part of the process.

33:23Jawad MirYes. It's such a therapy too, right? Like, whether you're writing music or you're writing a script or you're directing or you're editing, whatever, costume design, because you are always somehow at a very interesting level connected to something that you're working on. Because there… our, all of our stories, individual stories are different and unique, but they're so much alike, and we are always able to find ourselves…

33:54John MurphyYeah

33:54Jawad Mir... In somebody else's life.

33:56John MurphyYeah. I mean, and that's why movies are…

34:01Jawad MirYeah, they're work

34:01John Murphy... Such a big part of our culture.

34:03Jawad MirYeah.

34:03John MurphyBecause it really all comes down to storytelling as well, and which is as old as, you know, as old as humanity.

34:11Jawad MirRight.

34:11John MurphyThe first thing we ever did. And, you know, and it's not being narcissistic or anything, but, you know, w-we do, you know, tend to be interested when we can relate to s…

34:23Jawad MirNo.

34:23John MurphyAnd that's why movies are so powerful. You know, it's why guys love The Godfather. It's like we wanna have that honor and duty. You know, we react to that family first. We react to these positive things in such a big emotional way, because we relate to the fact that we would like to be like that. And the more that an audience can relate... I mean, I think that… I really think that's why James Gunn is, has been so successful in a way because he can find something re-relatable, whether it's a tree…

35:07Jawad MirYeah

35:07John Murphy... Or it's a raccoon or it's an otter or whatever. You know, he finds the humanity in these things, and he, and he presents it in a way that w… that all of us can relate to in a, in a positive way. We all understand…

35:24Jawad MirYeah

35:24John Murphy... You know, why we love Groot, because he's got this, you know, huge loyalty and courage, and we understand why we love Rocket. And, you know, and I just think some directors can really tap into that in a, in a very profound way, and I think that's, you know, one of the good things about him. But yeah, I mean, I always try to put myself in that position.

35:50Jawad MirYeah.

35:50John MurphyI think that's, you know…

35:52Jawad MirWell, stories are so…

35:54John MurphyI…

35:54Jawad MirStories are so important, right? Like even outside of the film world, I was talking to, a CEO at Silicon Valley, and

36:03John MurphyYeah

36:03Jawad Mir... There's another friend of his that I also know, and he… we were just having a cup of coffee, and we were talking about story. And he goes to me, he said something that was like, that, you know, that's so true, but it's such a profound thing to hear from someone, you know, that is not in the entertainment world.

36:20John MurphyYeah.

36:21Jawad MirHe says that me and my friend, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're set for life. Our probably kids and grandkids are set for life, but at the same time, you don't know anything in life, and if tomorrow all of our wealth goes away… We have the comfort of knowing that we can sit around a fire and tell each other stories

36:40John MurphyYeah, I mean…

36:41Jawad MirThat was just... When I heard that, I was like, "Wow, that is such a profound statement," from, you know, someone who's not even in the film world. But that's how important stories are.

36:51John MurphyIt is. I mean, it's everything. It's, it's how we learn our values, isn't it? It's how we learn what's important and what isn't. And, you know, it's funny because one of the best days I've had in the last few months was there was a power outage, and all we could do was sit around with candles. I couldn't work. I couldn't be worried about anything. There was no power to worry about emails, you know, or... We all just sat around and, you know, and we just talked for hours. And it was, like, one of those profound things where you just think, "Why can't it always be like this?" You know, "Why am I only interesting to my two kids when the power goes out," you know? But it was funny 'cause even they felt it. You could sense that it was a, some kind of magical thing. I mean, we're literally just sitting around with candles talking about stuff. And the power was only out for, like, four or five hours, but it was just one of those magical moments, and it just reminded me of this is how we used to be for 99.9% of our existence, is we'd be sitting around with some fire and we'd be talking to each other and people would learn stuff, and getting closer because of it.

38:05John MurphyAnd it's just a part of modern society that w… we don't get the chance to do that anymore. Well, we do get the chance, we just don't take it.

38:14Jawad MirWe just don't want to.

38:15John MurphyPower outage, you know.

38:16Jawad MirYeah.

38:17John MurphyBut yeah, I mean, it was just, you know, it was one of those great moments, really. I'm looking forward to the next power outage. 'Cause they'll get to talk to me again. Yeah.

38:27Jawad MirIt's so funny that, you know, we are... I mean, I don't even think it was, like, during the, before electricity. Even if you look back, like, 30, you know, like, before the internet. I…

38:37John MurphyYeah

38:37Jawad Mir... I genuinely feel life was a lot simpler. You know?

38:41John MurphyJust…

38:41Jawad MirIt was like the only thing that we had was... I mean, think about it. Like, I was just thinking about this the other day. Now it's like, you know, you send a text message to your spouse or to your parents or to your son, "Okay, I am where I'm supposed to be," or, "I've landed," or, "I've done this." Back then it was like, you don't get to get a phone call until you're, you probably get into the room or a hotel or someone's house, and then... You know, it's, it's so weird that how we are... It's good that we are all informed, but it's just sometime it's too much.

39:11John MurphyIt is.

39:11Jawad MirLess is more. Less is so much more.

39:15John MurphyI mean, absolutely. It's, it's,.. I mean, it's not gonna go away. I mean, that's the thing. We have to learn…

39:21Jawad MirIt'll get worse

39:22John Murphy... It's only gonna get worse, and we have to learn, you know, to sort of keep our humanity and l… and just live with it. But it's hard. I mean, I moan at my kids all the time, "Get off your phone. Get off your phone." And what do I do when I sit down and if I'm on my own and I sit and eat something? First thing I'm doing is looking at the news or checking emails, and I'm e… it's like I... It's hard for me to, you know, to have that discipline myself, so how can I expect…

39:52Jawad MirYeah

39:52John Murphy... Two teenage kids to do the same thing? It's... But we, you know, we, our, for our mental health, we're gonna need to figure out ways of reining that in, 'cause it's more addictive than anything. It's, it's, it's marine, you know?

40:07Jawad MirYeah. No, I think... And it's hard what I'm gonna say. I mean, it's something that I haven't been able to master, but having a schedule, like, after 8:00 or 8:30 PM, nobody touches their phone. You know, and just that's it. Like, that is it. As much of an inclination that you get, to do it. And believe me, like, you know, I remember, 25 years ago we went to a cottage. This was, like, early cellphone age, and it was up north, and none of the cell signals worked there. None of the phone lines worked there. So we were away for three days, and we were talking about it there, like, how do we know the world is still... There's not a nuclear war somewhere else? You know, what's, what's going on? But that's, that's how simple it used to be.

40:55John MurphyWell…

40:55Jawad MirNow you're, like, going through news and reading one bad thing after another.

41:00John MurphyYeah. I know, but it's, it's stopping us... It's... I feel like it's that constant information and that constant access to information is keeping us on this very shallow understanding of everything. 'Cause I, you know, I really believe it's only when all this stuff is turned off that we drop a little bit deeper in thinking about stuff.

41:29Jawad MirWe will, yeah.

41:30John MurphyWell…

41:30Jawad MirThere's actually a really good series about that I think only lasted three series. JJ Abrams produced it. It was called Revolution or Revolutionary.

41:40John MurphyYeah.

41:40Jawad MirWhere the, literally the first episode, the power goes out and everything goes back to the way it used to be, you know…

41:46John MurphyOh, great

41:46Jawad Mir... Across the world. Yeah, like the, you're running train on, you know, no electricity, nothing, and, you adapt.

41:55John MurphyYeah. Of course we adapt. I mean, that's, you know, that's why we're here. We were able to adapt better than any other species, you know? And it's just interesting to see how we're gonna adapt to this. But, you know, at least we have the advantage of knowing what it was like before. But this generation of kids, I mean, they've only known…

42:17Jawad MirThat's it

42:18John Murphy... Devices and stuff. So I mean, how are they gonna... I think, you know, when we look back, I think there is gonna be a sort of real tectonic shift in… At that point when, you know, in the way the world thinks, you know, I'm not gonna know this yet, but I think, you know, when people look back and it will be all about this instant access to information and, you know, we're never gonna be the same again. You know, I mean, w… we're that generation that kind of knew both sides of it. But I think with my kids, you know, they, you know, apart from their, you know, their early life, they, you know, they've... You know, in their recent memory, it's all been about phones and instant access and things being that way and who knows where that's gonna lead? But I just know they're both happier when they're not glued to the phone.

43:21John MurphyYou know, if there's no reception or no internet, it's like they start talking to each other more and everything becomes like it used to be. So, you know, hopefully we'll find a way to adapt to that, but it... You know, it's worrying for sure. It's definitely worrying.

43:37Jawad MirLike, you know, the interesting thing is by every generation, we always think the previous generation was better, right? So I'm thinking not our kids' generation, but the next generation, the way the technology is going. I mean, they're already talking about implanting chips, you know, into people's brains, for health reasons and whatnot. Imagine instead of having a phone, everything is built in your head.

44:04John MurphyI mean…

44:04Jawad MirAnd then it's like this would seem like such a easy life, you know? I, you know, I genuinely feel we're headed in that direction, the way, especially…

44:17John MurphyYeah

44:17Jawad Mir... In the last six, seven months, AI, like you just don't even know what the heck to watch and believe anymore.

44:24John MurphyI know. I mean, I saw this thing about AI this morning, which, you know, and it's, you know, you can go all the way back to H.G. Wells and all of these early science fiction writers. You know, and they saw this kind of thing coming and, you know, I read this thing this morning where they call it a black box syndrome something, where they were giving information to this, to a network of AI computers, and they didn't give enough information about... To translate certain languages.

45:01John MurphyAnd its own code, it took the little bit of information that it had and just prompted itself to fill in the gaps. It actually... You know, the AI network developed free will to go, "I've got this little bit of information. I'm just gonna work with that and figure out the rest of it." And it did, and it kind of freaked these scientists out because they've... I mean, everyone's been expecting, you know, what point does AI, you know, start making decisions for itself? But it's happening, you know? And it's sort of then, once it had built this interpretation of this language, it went, "Okay. Well, that's fact, so let's go with that." So but can you imagine the consequences if AI is being used in war or, which it's probably was designed for in the first place, just to give…

45:54Jawad MirYeah

45:54John Murphy... An advantage to certain states? Where, you know, where is that gonna go? If it's basically making decisions for itself, then, you know, how can we keep that, you know, unleashed? It's terrifying. It's, it's absolutely... It's like we're giving free will to something without having the humanity or the soul to it.

46:16Jawad MirYeah.

46:17John MurphyYou know, at what point is that not gonna end badly? So anyway, it's just another…

46:23Jawad MirNo. I…

46:23John Murphy... Surmise of mine

46:25Jawad Mir... I agree with you wholeheartedly, and this has been fascinating. We didn't get a chance to talk about Kick Ass, which is fine. This was, this was, much more intriguing and much more…

46:36John MurphyYeah

46:37Jawad Mir... Fascinating.