'Up in the Air', Composer, Rolfe Kent

0:06Jawad MirAnd, when I was in LA a few weeks ago, the weather there was so gloomy and, like, it was like literally rain or clouds every day.

0:14Rolfe KentI love it. I love it because I just got back from, the UK and

0:19Jawad MirOh

0:19Rolfe Kent... It's, it's a beautiful transition. The last time I came back from the UK, it was, raining there and raining here, and it was just mid of January and, just it's, it's like it's for me. It's just sort of eases my transition.

0:34Jawad MirOh, it does, eh? Okay, that's good.

0:36Rolfe KentYeah. It's, it's actually sunny now. It's, the,.. It's sunny, but it's still warmer in London than it is in LA these days.

0:44Jawad MirYeah, that's what I found. So I flew in from Toronto, and when I left Toronto, it was almost like in a humid humidity warning. It was super hot. And I get into LA, which I would expect more hotter, and it was much cooler. I needed to grab my hoodie and just have it on all the time when I was walking around.

1:06Rolfe KentThat's crazy.

1:08Jawad MirThe weather is doing funny business. But thank you so much, man, for joining. Appreciate it, you tuning in, and looking forward to chatting with you about Up in the Air and your career as well.

1:20Rolfe KentCool.

1:21Jawad MirSo tell me how you got started in, the world of music. What inspired you to, take a crack at it?

1:29Rolfe KentSo, well nothing inspired me to take a crack at it. It was just in the blood. I mean, I think…

1:39Jawad MirOkay

1:40Rolfe Kent... At the age of about five is when I started demanding to learn an instrument. But, you know, and I know that as a small kid, I had, I made instruments. I made, you know, I made a drum kit out of old cans and cling film, you know, wrap film. And, yeah, I, my elder brother… I started learning violin. I was originally wanted, I wanted to learn double bass, and I was five, so my mom talked me down to a violin, which I don't think parents know what they're in for if they make a child play the violin. But double bass would've been a much softer sound than the But, my brother had envy, you know, instrument envy, so he started learning piano, and I couldn't leave the piano alone. And I was banned from the piano because it was my brother's instrument. Made no difference. No difference. I was so much more into the piano than he was.

2:43Rolfe KentAnd, so yeah. Yeah, I was always really into music. And then, I know that, somewhere in my sort of around eleven or twelve, I realized that if you're gonna have original music and everyone's going to know it and have associations with it, film is a great place to do that. Because…

3:08Rolfe Kent... You know, you can write an orchestral piece. Who knows any orchestral music? Well, you know film orchestral music because it... And it immediately means something. It's like our song, but in, you know, in a parallel universe. It has immediate associations because you associate it with the actions, with the characters, with the romance of a story. So, right around the age of eleven or twelve, I started getting very preoccupied by film music.

3:42Jawad MirGreat. And what mu… what music was it that, got y… you going in terms of film music?

3:48Rolfe KentOh, I think anything. I mean, I don't know exactly what I was watching at…

3:57Jawad MirMaybe what... Was it the, was it the '90s, the '80s, or?

4:01Rolfe KentIt was earlier.

4:05Jawad MirOkay, it was earlier. It was earlier. Well, it didn't seem like that it was earlier, so I was just…

4:08Rolfe KentThank you. No, it was in the '70s. But, you know, I know, I know that, let's think. I mean, everything from the Railway Children through James Bond, Lawrence of Arabia… ... All that stuff. The music was so, had so much, you know, emotional weight and melody. Melody was a big deal in those days. And then, yeah, also at eleven I saw, the original London production of Jesus Christ Superstar…

4:42Rolfe Kent... With Murray Head in the lead role. And I, and I was looking at that just going, "Musical theater. I need to get into that." and so I think, I think it was the, you know, it's the, it's the magic of performance and, the interplay of music and drama and the emotional and the, and romantic weight of music in film. That, all that stuff... Well, not for... Yes, in film and in theater. All that stuff, made me absolutely in love with the use of music in storytelling.

5:26Jawad MirYeah. And it's the act of creation, right? Like you're creating something from scratch. But I think what's bigger, a lot of people like, you know, even people in the industry when we're watching films, we will notice music, but sometimes it's just done so, it's such a good marriage between the visuals and the music that you don't notice that it's there. But if it's not there, then you know, realize the importance of it. Like we kind of take it for granted. And…

5:56Rolfe KentYeah. I mean, I think you've hi… yeah, you've hit the nail on the head. And when the marriage is not good, then you start noticing details. But I mean, I'm a, I'm a film lover, I'm a story lover, so… I don't, I don't know how the music is made when I'm listening to it. I may just go f… later, just go, "That was an incredible moment. I have to see that again and try and figure out what was being done." I mean, a classic example is, for me, a surprising example is Cry the Beloved Country, scored by John Barry. Absolutely mesmerizing score in the film. If you listen to the score outside the film, you just go, "It's nice tunes, but it's an awful lot of the same tune." You know, they see… it seems as an, as a piece of music, as an album, it's different. But in the context of the film, it is absolutely electric. I mean, just the m… the weight of it, the moments of it, the… there is, there's a moment of a particular confrontation between two characters where the music is doing s… It's… I was… I didn't know what the music was doing.

7:09Rolfe KentThe m-moment is so incredible. And then later you listen to the music on its own and you go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense." You know? But it was just the genius of the marriage of story and the fact that the marriage was so perfect that you d… you don't… you can't analyze it. You're just lost in the moment of it.

7:30Jawad MirYeah. It's funny you mentioned John Barry. Recently, I re-watched, Out of Africa and Dances with Wolves, both by John Barry, and the music in both of them in the film, and they're both very scenic films, right?

7:45Rolfe KentYeah. Very atmospheric

7:46Jawad Mir... And visually beautiful and as storytelling and films, they're masterpieces. And then when I would down… I downloaded both soundtracks on my phone, and I would listen to it. And the funny thing is, I would probably only recognize the main theme note, and then, like I'll pay attention to it. And then after that, it's just something playing in the background. That's it. Like, it's just something to keep me off, you know, relaxing me, but I'm not really paying attention to it. I don't know if that makes sense. And you are so right about that music alone sometimes… Some soundtracks, like if you take, for example, Gladiator or, you know, Star Wars, they themselves can live on, without the film. But some soundtrack… And this is not a… this is not trying to say that one is better than the other. It's just the way it is, that certain musics, they're just marriage really well, and they're in there very subtly, which I enjoy the most. And everybody's different, of course.

8:47Rolfe KentYeah.

8:49Jawad MirGreat. And how did you… what was your first film that you did?

8:56Rolfe KentFirst film.

8:57Jawad MirW-well, how did you… well, whichever it was, how did you get into Hollywood or like…

9:03Rolfe KentOh. Well, the, how I got in, I did, what was it called? The s… oh, there was a film which had Aunt Esther in the title, and it was a short film. And, my… so my path into Hollywood was basically I, went to university to study something completely different. And while at university, did some music, wrote some music for a play that went to, the Edinburgh Festival, Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

9:37Rolfe KentAnd, it was… the play was written and directed by Mark Wadlow and Peter Morgan. And Peter Morgan, since then, you know, he writes The Crown, he wrote, The Queen, he wrote, so many films, which aren't about the royal family, Rush

10:01Jawad MirRight

10:01Rolfe Kent... And so I did some music for that. And then, so that was really the first time I did music for, storytelling. And then on the back of that, found myself, trying to get… doing lots of short films, lots of, well, whatever anyone would hire me to do. And one, doing the short film, The Saving of Aunt Esther, that's what it was called…

10:33Rolfe Kent... By, Nick Brant. And it was a short film, and it got, the attention… that got me into Hollywood. The director, Nick, went from London to Hollywood, found that they were making a lot of short films in Hollywood, for one particular, company, and they wanted someone in-house to write the music. And so they hired me to, do the music for them. And that was great because I met lots of directors and, there was all the, you know, all these short films, but they're being made by different people, including Alexander Payne and…

11:13Rolfe Kent... Richard Shepherd, who are still close friends and, people I work with. And that was really my way, the first thing that got me busy here in, LA.

11:27Jawad MirThat's great. You know, I saw Up in the Air when it came out, and it's been, God, 12 years now. I couldn't believe it when I, pulled it up again to rewatch it, and it's completely different film than it was 12 years ago.

11:46Rolfe KentYeah.

11:46Jawad MirRight? And one of the things that really was kinda timely is the idea of firing people over the internet, you know, especially with the Zoom. And there was some news recently too, a CEO fired like, you know, a hundred of his employees over Zoom and how things have sort of changed so much. How… Had you worked with,... Jason before, Up in the Air, and if not, how did you get, on board on that project?

12:19Rolfe KentI had. I… we did, Thank You For Smoking together.

12:24Jawad MirOh, you did Thank You For Smoking. That's a great film. I totally forgot it was, Jason and, I didn't realize it was yours. And how… What was your introduction to Jason in that film like? Just to kind of figure out the connection that you guys had before ma… working together.

12:40Rolfe KentOh, that was just, you know, my agent. So I don't know how we ended up in the same room. My agent said, you know, "Meet this person." And, I'm sure he'd met a few people. We had a… We chatted and got along well, so we worked on that film together. That was interesting. He's a, he's a very interesting director and, very creative and innovative and open. Yeah. He was, he was from the outset. He was on Thank You For Smoking. He,.. And it really came through on,.. Well, we did… we've done four films together, I think. And, yeah, he-it's… he's really got an interesting philosophical approach to music and storytelling.

13:38Jawad MirYeah. I mean, in Up in the Air, have you seen it recently or has it been a while?

13:43Rolfe KentIt's been a while. I was just thinking this morning, it's got Za… One of the, you know, when we say a lot has changed in 12 years, Zach Galifianakis is one of the…

13:51Jawad MirYeah

13:52Rolfe Kent... Is the fir… is pretty much the s-first actor you see on the screen. And it's a bit part because he's not a star yet. And

14:01Jawad MirYeah, it's funny you mention that because when he came in I'm like, "Is he in the film? I don't remember him." And well, maybe he's gonna show up in the middle of the film, somehow the story's gonna get reconnected. But yeah, one of the only films…

14:12Rolfe KentYeah. No, he wasn't, he wasn't, he wasn't the… as big as we… he is now. And now if you saw him at the beginning of a film, you would just go, "Oh, he's gotta be a major character." But

14:21Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, and with Up in the Air, with… in terms of music, so he-here's a funny thing. We were talking about that earlier, right? That I watched it a few days ago and I… When I'm trying to speak to somebody who's involved in a film, whether it's a cinematographer, a writer, director, editor, I'm always… You know, when I re-watch a film, I'm always trying to watch it in that context. And very few times I forget that context, and that happened to me in Up in the Air.

14:56Rolfe KentGood.

14:56Jawad MirI completely forgo… I completely forgot about the music. Like, I didn't even pay attention because the characters and the story are so amazing and so rich, that I had to go back and kinda just skip my way through and find the, you know, the main musical tracks. W-what was the... I… Especially when he was packing, George Clo-Clooney's character, whenever he's packing, there's this amazing little music piece that comes in. I can't even… I haven't even heard anything like that before. And I'm not a musician by any means. I don't know the instruments. I just know when it's good, it's great. It just stood out the second time that I watched it again. H-how… What's your process for coming up with something like that? Like, do you listen to anything else or you do not listen to anything else? Or working with a director, what's his language to you, et cetera?

15:53Rolfe KentYeah. I think it was a, you know, it's different on every film because it's different with every director.

15:58Jawad MirSure

15:58Rolfe Kent... And with Jason, I mean, I know the packing sequence. I'm trying to remember what the conversation was that we had about that. The,.. Because Jason loves to pare things down. You know, he… I mean, like, from the very outset, he was very sort of clear that the sort of big romantic scores, the very rich melodic scores are not his speed at all. So, the fact that, there are two all-percussion pieces in, the score is perfect for Jason because there's no melody. It's all about just energy. The, you know, what kind of energy we're looking for. And also… So the packing sequence is one of those percussion sequences, isn't it? It's lots of... It's… The actual sequence is quite… It's, it's very… it's all about efficiency, isn't it? They're putting things in bags, zipping, lots of snap and, you know, it's a… it's because, you know, the character George Clooney is playing is all about efficiency, it's all about getting places and, he travels all the time.

17:09Rolfe KentHe knows exactly how he's gonna pack, and the music is there to give it sort of the, that efficiency, that energy, that push so that it's, it's, you know, just ha-has momentum. Bang, he's at the, airport and it sort of like builds to that moment. And, I have a lot of percussion instruments in here, and, I think the one I used, oh, this is a, it was a particularly strange one. It's a…

17:38Jawad MirOh

17:39Rolfe Kent... It's an udu pot, but udu pot's a lot more regular shape and, this one's extremely flat. It's like a UFO. And it is… And it's made of clay and... So it's, it's, it's a really interesting sound. It's got some bass to it. It's got some snap to it. And I showed him this and, you know, I was sort of, playing it and he was just going, "It's okay to use that." And he was sort of in my studio just going, "Okay, definitely use that. What else have you got?" And so I showed him various instruments and, and then sort of start building, you know, he, then he'd leave and I'd create something, and then he'd come back and give me feedback about, you know, how it was working.

18:30Jawad MirRight.

18:31Rolfe KentBut so things like, but that cue, the packing cue, is definitely done very much in that spirit. I mean, of course, there were other melodic cues, in the film and, but a lot of it was about that forward momentum, that sort of…

18:46Rolfe KentThere are moments of, emotionality and of course there's that whole romance back… you know, side story that, goes on and there's that sort of dance of sensuality that, within that. But, Jason, you know, one of the… there was, there was one particular cue where, you know, I'd written… It was, well, it wasn't very many instruments. It was like ukulele, harp, clarinet.

19:14Rolfe KentAnd then he'd… Jason would watch it and go, "What would, what would it be like without the clarinet?" As I would play it to him. And he goes, "And without the ukulele?" And he'd take that out, and he'd just go, "And then it's just the harp." And he goes, "Beautiful." And then, you know, when I hear it with his ears, you know, with a perspective, because as a composer, you're always just going, "I don't know if that's enough. Let's add more." And then when someone comes in and takes the more away, and then just shows you what you actually had done, and you go, "Oh yeah, you're right. It does work." that was… he's really good. I mean, that's what I mean by he likes to pare things down.

19:54Jawad MirYeah.

19:54Rolfe KentHe's really good at that. He's really good at just sort of saying, "You're g… you're getting in the way. To sort of get the stuff that's in the way out, and then just see what we have." And he's, he's, he's really excellent at that.

20:07Jawad MirYeah, I mean, it shows in his work too, in the film specifically, the twist at the end. I mean, that I feel that had it been any other director, not everybody, but had it been any other director, they could have, you know, the two leading actor and actresses, they could have had a conversation at the door. But he chose not to do that, you know. As soon as George Clooney's character is here, sees the kids, and he hears, "Honey," he just walks away. I mean, that's, that's the simplest thing, right? Like less is more. And I think a lot of times as composers or as writers or directors or editors, you always end up trying to do more, but sometimes the answer is in the most simplest things.

20:47Rolfe KentYeah. Yeah. And also, I mean, he's, he's been making films for, you know, adults, not idiots.

20:54Jawad MirRight. Yeah.

20:54Rolfe KentAnd, so he doesn't have to spell everything out. You know, you… it's there. You know what the message is. It's not,.. Yeah.

21:06Jawad MirBut you know what? It's, it's funny though, because that scene, I remember that scene. That scene stood out. The only thing that stood out for me from that film, even when I was gonna re-watch it, was that scene. I just remember there was a scene, and it was very powerful, and I don't remember if there was a dialogue around it or not. And when I was watching it again, and the scene came and when, you know, there was just this dead silence, and part of me was like, "I hope they have a conversation just to kind of figure out where this is going and that." But then I'm like, "I hope they don't." And then that kind of wins at the end because that just said so much more than, you know, having a conversation which would have ruined the moment completely.

21:45Rolfe KentYeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's beautiful. It's, it's beautiful in the pacing and the,.. It's, it's such a clean way of telling a story, it's, a-and it involves the audience because you j… you connect with it and join the dots.

22:06Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Did you… Were you sup… What was your reaction when you first read the script and that part came up? Like, was that something you were expecting?

22:14Rolfe KentI don't think I ever saw the script, actually.

22:17Jawad MirOh, you didn't? Okay.

22:18Rolfe KentNo, I can…

22:20Jawad MirOr when you found out about the film, the ending?

22:24Rolfe KentOh, I don't... Damn it. It's been a while. I don't know when I…

22:30Jawad MirI know, I know. Because there was no music in there, so I don't blame you for not remembering that part because there was literally no… nothing happening in terms of musical tunes. It was just, you know, that moment. But that's okay. I was just curious. I know it's been a while.

22:46Rolfe KentI mean, definitely there's the, there's the, "Oh." I mean, it's a surprise, isn't it?

22:51Jawad MirYeah.

22:51Rolfe KentWhere you've, you've had this r… wonderful chemistry that's sort of percolating all the way through and they're sexting and then they occasionally get together, and then you just go, "Oh, that's... Oh my God. That's not…"

23:08Jawad MirYeah. Normally you would see the other way around, right? Like it would be a, you know, a man who would be sort of cheating. Ch… you know, that's what we have seen sort of growing up in movies…

23:18Rolfe KentRight

23:18Jawad Mir... And reading in books. And I think the way it was reversed, it was such a shocker because you wouldn't imagine that coming at all.

23:26Rolfe KentYeah. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah.

23:29Jawad MirOne thing that I don't know if at the time when you were working on the film, this is just something that I noticed for myself. When I watched it way back, life was obviously very different in a lot of ways. And the last… Just leading up to COVID, but even after COVID in the last four or five years, I have traveled ridiculous amount for, you know, some of the c… some of the films that I've been working on and just going through those airport to airport to airport, and that resonated a lot more with me just even, recognizing some of the airport spots. Is that something that you, your life sometimes can be… ends up becoming because of work, and you try to balance it in some way?

24:15Rolfe KentNo, I don't find myself, that's it. No, I guess that's, that's, that's not really my life. You know, but I do go backwards and forwards between London and LA a fair bit. But that has become so routine, that I don't really, think about it in any great detail. The,.. I do, you know, f… flying during lockdown…

24:42Rolfe KentI kind of m… I… It was, it was amazing because, you know, yeah, the international terminal was deserted apart from us, and that was both spooky, but I also kind of miss it because there's something fantastic about being the only passenger in an airport. But it is… was disturbing. I mean, at the time, you're just going, "Ah."

25:11Jawad MirYeah.

25:11Rolfe KentWhere is everybody? It… But, no, that's not, you know... But I go... Th… th… I think when you do a journey many, you know, I have a routine journey. I sometimes…

25:25Jawad MirI know

25:25Rolfe Kent... Record out of town. But the routine of going backwards and forwards to London is one that's too familiar to really…

25:33Jawad MirYeah

25:33Rolfe Kent... Pay much attention anymore.

25:35Jawad MirIt's funny you mention about deserted airport. I think after five or six months of COVID, I started traveling a lot to Europe, to States, and then when things started becoming normal, I… it… half the planes used to be empty, so you would have the seat next to you all the way empty, and you would just lie down, and it got so spoiling because when everything became to normal, I'm like, "Why are people sitting next to me?" Shouldn't they be on the plane? Like, you know, you just become so accustomed to it, but then you get eventually used to it too.

26:07Rolfe KentI was on a plane, and they went, "There's only th… you know, all 37 passengers are on board. Welcome to your private jet." And as you say, you know, the next time that you're at a place and you just go, "The entire cabin is full. Is this safe?"

26:24Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. What, aside from composing music for film, do you, do any other, music work that you have done or you're doing at the moment?

26:40Rolfe KentYes. I,.. So I do quite a lot, I have quite a lot of theater and… ... And then there's another project which a friend of mine has come up with. Right now in the, in, at The Shed in Manhattan, there is the Sonic Sphere…

27:00Rolfe Kent... Which is a multi-channel, system that surrounds you, and I've written some music, and I continue to write music for the Sonic Sphere, which is an incredible space. It gives you the goose pimples of live performance even when it's not a live performance, because the, this, because you are integrating the sound yourself. The sound is coming from, you know, 100 different speakers instead of from stereo.

27:28Rolfe KentAnd so the, instead of being presented to you're actually experiencing it, and to some degree, you're doing your own mix by where you are in the, in the space. So that's an incredible thing, the Sonic Sphere. But, in theater, right now I have, a show called The Many Deaths of Michael Malloy, which is running in Plymouth in England, and, hopefully we'll bring it to Brooklyn at some point because it's set in Brooklyn. It's all about a character, who,.. Well, it's all about a sort of conspiracy in a speakeasy that genuinely happened, in, prohibition Brooklyn. And, also developing another show with various people. These are musicals. These are…

28:21Jawad MirRight

28:22Rolfe Kent... So Many Deaths is a musical. And I also have a little theater entity in Los Angeles, and, it was just really initially to do immersive theater, but I… it ended up always doing musical immersive theater, and, we had a show just before COVID called, Crimson Cabaret, which was…

28:46Rolfe Kent... A, set in a Berlin nightclub in 1963 that was full of spies. And the cabaret, all the music for the cabaret, you know, we had a performance that was going on the entire time, and that was all scored by me, with one, I think one other track by my, very good friend Savannah Wheeler. But the, so, but that's, that's what I've... That seems to take up at least half my time these days is working on musicals, for theater.

29:21Jawad MirAnd what's the timeline like for, to, for you to work on theater from prepping to the actual show itself? How…

29:30Rolfe KentFor the show to…

29:30Jawad Mir... Many number of weeks?

29:32Rolfe KentFor the show to get onto Broadway or the West End, that's…

29:36Jawad MirYeah

29:37Rolfe Kent... Somewhere like six to s… seven years.

29:42Jawad MirWow.

29:42Rolfe KentIt's a long time. That's why I say I'm working on, you know, the... It's gonna be a while.

29:49Jawad MirBut you're, but you're, but you're still doing films at the same time, right? When…

29:53Rolfe KentAbsolutely. Yeah.

29:54Jawad MirYeah.

29:54Rolfe KentYeah. I think one of the reasons theater takes so long is because it doesn't pay while you're doing, you know, until it arrives, so everyone's always doing something else. So you're always... Yeah. So I, yeah, I've got, I, yeah, I've got films and things to do at the same time.

30:15Jawad MirWhich is good. I mean, you gotta, you gotta have, work,.. And which, not that I'm trying to compare any of the two, but if there was something that you enjoyed more, and I'm pretty sure it probably varies on day to day or if not week to week basis, do you prefer theater or film?

30:37Rolfe KentIn at any given day. You know, someone once asked, "What kind of film do you want to score next?" And I said, "Something different to the last one."

30:50Jawad MirYeah.

30:50Rolfe KentAnd it's not, it's not a comment on the last one, it's just I like to… I like variety. And so, I get bored of being alone in a room writing music, but then… So but this is what film is. At some point I just go, "Ah, this is… Can I, can I get out of this room? Can I collaborate?" And then you do theater, and it's all collaboration, and it's all that wonderful, crazy energy. And then when I have a film to do after that, I just go, "Oh, thank goodness. I'm so relieved to be out of all that craziness and alone in a room to write music on my own."

31:28Jawad MirYeah.

31:28Rolfe KentSo the contrast is really helpful to me. I haven't lost patience with either of them. I love them both, but they, going from one to the other is, really nice. I think... You know, sometimes film is, it's like Sideways. I think you mentioned you might wanna talk about Sideways and Sideways was a very collaborative score. So that was a very big difference to an orchestral score. So, and I think as long as there's that opportunity for, new voices to interact with, that's one of the great things about jazz and it's a great thing about working in theater. And sometimes, and sometimes in film, that you get those, interactions and surprises. Things turn up that you weren't expecting. Whereas being a very, you know, writing just a, your own orc… orchestral score, you kind of know where you're going and what you're gonna end up with and, which is very satisfying, but it's not as exciting.

32:39Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. It's, it's funny you mention that how you miss doing film score when you're doing theater and vice versa. And I think, and I think with creative people, that's what it is. Like, we love collaboration, but at the same time, we want to be in solitude and doing something that kinda just comes from our, you know, from our own, and then you wanna go that. And I think that's very healthy because doing too much of one thing can just, you know, put you in that pigeonhole and, sort of typecasting type of the work that you do. And I'm, I'm glad that you're very particular about what you pick because if you're doing the same thing over and over again, you know, you're not satisfying yourself. Yeah, you might be getting a paycheck, which is great, but at the end of the day, it's also about, you know, what makes you, happy.

33:30Rolfe KentYeah. No, that's that classic... You know, it's so, it's, it's so difficult to make a film and, it's so unpredictable what's going to happen, you know, with your cast, with all the elements. And of course, you know, you want to, as a producer, you wanna make it as controllable as possible. You wanna use the person who's done that before. But as the person who's done that before, you don't wanna do it again…

33:54Jawad MirYeah

33:54Rolfe Kent... Because it's, it's old. So it's that, yeah, there's always that sort of rub.

34:02Jawad MirYeah. What's one genre that you haven't done that you would love to do? Or more than one.

34:09Rolfe KentOoh. You know, I don't think there's any, in terms of, well, in terms of film, I don't know. I don't think there's any one genre that I've, that I would love to do that I haven't done. I'm, I mean, I'm trying to think, is there anything... I… What I… One of the nicest things is when, someone gives you limitations.

34:43Rolfe KentSo, and sometimes you know, you come up with them your, on your own. But like if someone said, "This has to feel like a Steve Reich, percussion score. You're not allowed to use anything other than hand percussion and marimbas," I would love that. I would, I would love that discipline of just going, "This is all I'm gonna use." because it would have… 'cause the character would be so predefined. I mean, I've done that to myself a few times. I think the first time I can think of was a film called Mexico City, where I…

35:20Rolfe Kent... Just used Spanish guitar and nothing else. But I allowed myself to morph it through all sorts of different devices, but the only source for anything I wrote was gonna be the Spanish guitar. And, that was very, you know, that was very interesting. I think actually the director might have suggested that. That was Richard Shepherd. But sometimes I do it to myself of, you know, deliberately limiting the things…

35:48Rolfe Kent.. That I'm using. I think on, was it Freaky Friday, I decided to just use strings and percussion. I was gonna just use percussion, and then I decided I needed strings. But, yeah, and just see if you can, you know, get rid of no woodwind, no brass, nothing else. Just make this, these sound a leaner sound so that it would,.. There was, there was that lovely score to H… Hero and also to Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Ten Dun, just using, Japanese drums and string orchestra.

36:32Rolfe KentAnd it's such a clean arrangement, and s… with really unexpected approaches to various scenes and, I sort of have envy of that, of that idea of using a very limited palette because then it produces a very specific… It's like one's blue period. You know, if you're gonna be Picasso, you're just gonna get, yeah, lots of blue. And then it, becomes a statement of its own. I think that's amazing.

37:02Jawad MirBut does that... As, h… like, well, how should I put this? As confined as you are to, or limited as you are to be able to do something that you have been instructed to do so, sometimes has there, has there ever been a time where you're like, "I wish I had the freedom to add something into it," whether it's an instrument or a different type of,.. Yeah. An-anything of that nature ever occurred?

37:30Rolfe KentWell, I… Yes, I mean, you get that sort of tension to,.. But that's kind of where the fun is to work with that tension, and instead of compromising, figure out a way of doing what you want to do…

37:45Jawad MirOh, yeah

37:46Rolfe Kent... With the tool that you have. I mean, just recent… a couple of days ago, I had this, song workshop that, called The Notorious and Despicable Song Shop… ... That, I hold every so often. And I set an assignment, and this assignment was the verse could only use one chord. And the result was that sometimes people would have a melody which would seem to require a second chord, but you… they wouldn't use it because you weren't allowed another chord. And…

38:21Jawad MirI see what you're saying

38:21Rolfe Kent... The result, the result was actually nice. You just go, "Oh, you can actually sing that note over this chord," and it now feels unexpected rather than completely normal and supportive.

38:33Jawad MirYeah.

38:34Rolfe KentSo sometimes the tension, you know, that produces is where the interest lies.

38:42Jawad MirYep, makes perfect sense. Do you, follow any kind of international music or get any kind of ideas from that? If so, which particular?

38:54Rolfe KentNo, I'm completely, random in my listening.

38:59Jawad MirOkay. So you don't, you don't per se listen to a specific folk music or culture or you try to do some research on your own, whether even if you're not working on a project?

39:09Rolfe KentNo, not really. I just listen to whatever I listen to.

39:14Jawad MirWho do you listen to?

39:16Rolfe KentWell, it's, well, it's… I also don't, I don't listen to a lot.

39:23Jawad MirOkay

39:23Rolfe Kent... Some… but sometimes it's just radio. I just, and, you know, I'll, I'll listen to, BBC Radio 3, which is their classical station. There's that amazing podcast radio, that, Stuart Copeland once mentioned. I forget where he mentioned it, but, it's a very… Oh, I wish I could remember the name of it. The v… It's a very eclectic sort of two-hour episode every time with… which just has all sorts of music from around the world crashing into it, into itself. And quite an inspiring, bunch of stuff. But actually, I mean, I listen to spoken word a lot because I think, you know, dealing with music so much of the time, it's nice to let the synapses relax and refresh. So I do a lot, a lot of audiobooks.

40:20Jawad MirGot it. Got it. Anything in the pipeline that you're working on, even if you are not allowed to talk about it in terms of film?

40:33Rolfe KentLet's see what's coming up. Well, there's the, there's the next show that I'm developing, but that's maybe a few years off. I'm about to do, Everything Is Gonna Be Great, which is a film directed by Jon Baird, who directed, Stan & Ollie. That was when we first worked together.

40:56Jawad MirOkay.

40:56Rolfe KentAnd Stonehouse, which was for television, which was our second, outing together. So I'm about to do this one. I'm very excited. Jon Baird is, the most enthusiastic director. He… I mean, it's a… he's a dream to work for because you wanna work for someone who absolutely loves what they do. And…

41:21Jawad MirYeah

41:21Rolfe Kent... Jon Baird is a man who, loves what he does and is really good at it. So and we have a great rapport. So I'm, about to get stuck into that and really looking forward to it.

41:35Jawad MirAnd is there a official premise out for that film?

41:39Rolfe KentOh, I don't know. I don't know.

41:42Jawad MirOkay. Then I won't ask then. That's why I asked you official because I don't know if it's been out yet or not, but that's fine. But I'm imagining that's probably gonna come out sometime late this year, if not early next year, if you haven't started on it yet.

41:55Rolfe KentYeah, I don't know the scheduling on it.

41:57Jawad MirYeah. Cool. Sounds good. Any movies you're looking forward to this year?

42:04Rolfe KentI don't know what's coming. So, I don't know. I mean, I love films. So, I… but I'm… Yes, I've… But right now I'm trying to be on a diet of non-magical, non-science fiction, non-science fantasy, or because there's, there's so much of that. And you go, "Well, there are so many..." Because the only reason any story works is 'cause it resonates with, you know…

42:36Rolfe Kent... Analog human humanity, which means that all those, all those story types could be told without special powers and, And science fantasy. And, so I'm kind of tr… yeah, as I say, I'm trying to just focus on things which happen in the, in a version of the real world. And, because there's so much charm and so much excitement and so much energy in, just in the real world. And I think it's time, it's time we spent more time on those, kind of things that we can genuinely relate to.

43:20Jawad MirYeah

43:20Rolfe Kent... We're, we're in an era where people are so confused because the superpowers are sort of touted all the time, and you go, "They don't actually exist." You know, we are who we are. There are no magic remedies. It's, it's a question of putting one foot in front of the next. So, I think it's, yeah. I mean…

43:43Jawad MirYeah

43:44Rolfe Kent... I lo… I loved Ted Lasso, for example. Ted Lasso…

43:47Jawad MirYeah

43:47Rolfe Kent... There's no… nothing magical going on there. It's just a fantastic energy and humor and charm. What a gorgeous show that was.

43:59Jawad MirYou should watch, on Apple TV+ u… unless you already have, Silo.

44:05Rolfe KentOh, I've been watching Silo.

44:07Jawad MirYeah. It's

44:07Rolfe KentI mean, it's, it's science fiction and…

44:10Jawad MirWell, I haven't seen the last episode, but I mean, it was kind of resonating with a lot of things. It's like pretty much the debate that happened during COVID. You know, should we be allowed to or should we not to? But I get your point because one thing that I can't s… and then maybe that might change. I keep saying this, I've been saying this for about 10 years now. I don't watch superhero movies. Like, I just can't get into this whole massive special effects, superpowers and stuff. I watch Mission Impossible, I watch Indiana Jones, I watch Christopher Nolan's stuff and everything. But one thing that I, that I, even I like to make are, you know, the real stories because the real superheroes are ordinary people living, their lives in the most difficult manner, whatever that may be. And Up in the Air is something that was just so simple, right? I mean, a guy who fires people and who travels around and who doesn't have a life and tries to… ends up meeting this person and then everything backfires.

45:14Jawad MirAnd those films were at the peak in the '90s and maybe early 2000s. And those films, I don't know if they're still there, we don't hear about them. And I hope that they come back because that's what, that's what I enjoyed growing up, especially the '90s cinema, the independent cinema, the rise of that.

45:33Rolfe KentYeah. No, I think so. I, you know, I think in some, in some countries there are probably still plenty of that being made.

45:41Jawad MirI'm sure there are

45:42Rolfe Kent... I think a lot of it is cultural. I mean, it's interesting, Silo, you… it occurs to me that in some parts of the world, this idea of, only having what you can repair, is normal life. It's not

45:57Jawad MirYeah

45:57Rolfe Kent... And, it's, it is a very well-made and very well-cast, show. The,.. Yeah, we haven't… I thought it, I thought, I thought I'd... I didn't realize there was still more episodes coming. I thought this is gonna be, gonna be the last episode and it wasn't. So I go, "No!"

46:22Jawad MirWhich episode are you on?

46:24Rolfe KentIs it on nine? Did we just see nine?

46:26Jawad MirYeah. The ninth came out today, which I haven't seen, but I know…

46:29Rolfe KentOh, then I've seen... Then eight I've seen. And I…

46:32Jawad MirYeah

46:32Rolfe Kent... I thought eight was the last one. And then I go, "No, it's still going."

46:36Jawad MirWell, they're already filming season two.

46:39Rolfe KentOh, Lord.

46:40Jawad MirSo that's where,.. One se… I love miniseries. I'm not too crazy about long seasons because after a certain point, with the exception of shows like, in my opinion, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, things get repetitive. But one miniseries that I would l… suggest you to watch, it's called ZeroZeroZero.

47:04Rolfe KentRight.

47:04Jawad MirIt's a eight-part and I think it's on Amazon Prime. And then there's the other one... Oh, for God's sake. What was the name of it? I forget. But anyway, ZeroZeroZero is basically it deals with Italian mafia, it deals with cartels and it's, it's really well done.

47:24Rolfe KentYeah

47:24Jawad Mir... It's, it's a human story. And what's that surveillance one on BBC that just came out with a season two? Oh, God. Capture. That's a good one. I don't know about season two, but season one is unbelievable.

47:38Rolfe KentYeah, I saw Capture. I saw Capture.

47:39Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Yeah.

47:40Rolfe KentYeah. That was

47:41Jawad MirThat was…

47:42Rolfe KentYeah. No, I'm, I'm with you. If they're gonna finish the story, I want the story to finish.

47:48Jawad MirYeah.

47:48Rolfe KentNow, if it's second season and it's a new story with a new finish, fine. But if it's just, you thought it was gonna finish, you go, "Oh no, we're just gonna spin this on for another three seasons or something," it's... I lose, I lose my mind. And I…

48:03Jawad MirYeah. No, I get it

48:04Rolfe Kent... And I give up. I wanna know that we're getting to the end and then, you know. 'Cause with Silo, I'm, I'm worried now because if there's a season two. It seems to me that something, you know, we should know what's... Anyway.

48:18Jawad MirWell, I know. I get it, but I think at the end of the day it's whether we like it or not, it's about if you don't make them then you don't, you know, make profit and if you don't make profit then you can't make more stuff and so on and so forth. I'm not trying to present an excuse, but that's just unfortunately the nature of business. But where a story gets lost, and, yeah, and I genuinely hope that, you know, the only movies that we hear about this, I hear about are the big ones. Like, I don't hear about small films anymore, whether they're being made or not. You know, the films that I make, they're about… You know, human rights violations and with protagonists, real narrative documentaries and the audience for that is much smaller compared to an audience for, let's say, a film like, I don't know, Iron Man, for example.

49:11Rolfe KentYeah.

49:11Jawad Mir'Cause people like to, people like to escape. But this is our world. We need to understand our world first more. A lot of people don't know about so many things. Even you and I have no clue what's going on in another part of the world because everything in the news is, in terms of film, is about the mainstream, films.

49:32Rolfe KentYeah. Yeah, it's true. And, there's, there's lots of room for it. I think there's,.. I mean, to a degree, I think, well, I think it's the machinery of the, of the, distribution… You know, the distribution machinery that has got used to this idea that, you spend two hundred million dollar film or a million dollars on a film and you'll, you'll make so much profit. But I love the idea that instead let's make 20 films of, ten million dollars and publicize them, put them out properly and make them... But you know, it's... Yeah, we'll see.

50:19Jawad MirNo, it's be… it's become a little frustrating now. I mean, I've… I watch now cinema from the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s, early 2000s. I might go see, I will go see, I shouldn't say I might, I will go see Mission Impossible. I'll go see Indiana Jones. But other than that, I mean, because they're something that you ki… you kinda grew up with. But other than that, there's nothing for me to watch. I'll just revisit old cinema and watch it with my kids and stuff.

50:45Rolfe KentOne of the things when we were talking about Silo, it reminded me that I have this idea that, James Bond films should only be set in the '60s, and the… whenever they present new technology, it should be laughably, you know, wind up clockwork, to us, and it would have this inherent humor. Firstly, most of the reasons it should be in the '60s. I mean, it's partly why Indiana Jones initially worked so well.

51:13Jawad MirYeah.

51:13Rolfe Kent'Cause it was, it was set in a, in a period where everything's advanced so much, m… but we can look back and the story… nature of storytelling is not compromised by cell phones and technology. It's, it's, you know, whips and guns and biplanes. And Bond films were… You know, Bond was originally in the '60s and, or '50s and '60s. And the idea that's where you just keep him in that era. The Cold War is very straightforward. You know, it's, you know, you've got the S… the Soviet Union versus the West. And, so the balance of powers is very s… very easy to understand. And you've got all this ridiculous potential for clockwork devices and thinking they are fancy new technology. I think, when you look, when you look at Goldfinger and they've got a tiny little pager, that, he's got it hidden in his heel, and he… I know at the time everyone was going, "Ooh, that's so incredible."

52:19Jawad MirYeah.

52:19Rolfe Kent"It's science fictiony." Now we… you know, it's so absurd, but, I think there's more fun in that than there is in constantly being cutting edge and science fictiony and all, you know. I mean, one of the tropes in films now is that, you know, you hear that the villain's got a lair in Cuba, and they go, "Suddenly all our heroes are in Cuba." How did, how did they... D… didn't it take them a day and a half to sort of pack their bags, get themselves over there? And then they go, "No, we need to be in Taiwan." Boom. Now they're in Taiwan. No attention to the fact…

52:59Jawad MirNo, I get it

53:00Rolfe Kent... That it's gonna take you twenty-four hours to get there. And, you know, or Wakanda, it's… that's a long way away.

53:09Jawad MirYeah. No, I especially, I haven't seen all of them. I've seen maybe a couple of the Fast and Furious films. And I think that in th… I can tell watching in the trailer, like,.. Now it's like every film, and Mission Impossible included, everything is about international locations, right?

53:28Rolfe KentRight.

53:28Jawad MirAnd, you know, you have… If you have those, it's eye-popping, and it's like a touristy thing, and people wanna go to these places on top of the action. And you miss that element of story. Again, everything boils down to story. If the story is dictating you to go to different locations, sure. But if you're just taking the story to different locations because for the hell of it, then you're screwed.

53:57Rolfe KentYeah.

53:58Jawad MirYeah.

53:58Rolfe KentAgreed. Great.

53:59Jawad MirWell, let's, let's see what cinema holds for us in future. I have a… My prediction is that now I think people are getting tired and fatigued with all the movies and with the algorithm, and hopefully that would revive something in the next five to ten years. But hey, I'm not an expert. I'm just guessing.

54:15Rolfe KentI love it when a, when a film defies expectations and, you know…

54:19Jawad MirThat's right

54:19Rolfe Kent... You're just going, "Oh, and now he's going to die," and then he doesn't die. And you go, "Wait, what? That was,.. This is… Now I'm excited because that was the obvious thing to happen next." And, so yeah, I like it. A… as you say, when the algorithm breaks, then we have interesting storytelling is… has a potential.

54:42Jawad MirFor sure. For sure. Great. Thank you so much, man. Appreciate your time. I know we didn't get to chat about Sideways, but would love to do it again if you have time in future.

54:50Rolfe KentSure.

54:50Jawad MirAnd maybe we can chat about Sideways or something else that you like to chat about.

54:55Rolfe KentThank you very much.

54:56Jawad MirPerfect. Thank you so much. Take care. Have a great day.

54:58Rolfe KentYou too.

54:59Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.