'Die Hard', Author, James Mottram

0:06Jawad MirHey, James. How you doing?

0:07James MottramVery well. How are you, sir?

0:09Jawad MirI'm doing fantastic, thank you so much. How's, how's London treating you so far?

0:14James MottramYeah, not bad. The weather, excuse me, the weather's pretty good, so,... That's unusual and quite pleasant. How about you in, Canada?

0:24Jawad MirIt's good. It's warmed up quite a bit. I was actually in LA, for four or five days and, it felt like London. It was gloomy and doomy.

0:34James MottramOh, no.

0:35Jawad MirYeah.

0:35James MottramNever mind.

0:36Jawad MirYeah, it w… No, but, actually the last day before I left it was actually more hotter in Toronto than it was in LA, which is, which is weird because, but obviously, you know, with climate change and everything.

0:47James MottramYou managed to, get your internet, back then?

0:50Jawad MirYes. Yeah, you know, the funny thing is, the day after we were supposed to do it, I went to LA, and then an hour ago we had a similar issue again. So I was like, "Okay, now I'm gonna go on the phone." But then it came back up, like, in five minutes, so…

1:07James MottramOh, that's better

1:08Jawad Mir... But it's all good. It's all good. Yeah.

1:11James MottramVery good.

1:12Jawad MirYeah, no, I was actually... I hadn't seen, Die Hard 4 in a long time, and I was in my hotel and it was on, incidentally, on Saturday, and, you know, I saw it again. Obviously, the first, second, and third I remember. I've seen it several times. The fourth one I've seen a few times. Fifth one I actually don't even remember what it's about, to be honest.

1:36James MottramWell, I must admit, even I slightly struggle to remember what it's about, but

1:41Jawad MirYeah

1:42James Mottram... Yeah. Interesting. The fifth one. There we go.

1:45Jawad MirYeah, I gotta watch it again. But what were your favorite Die Hard films, among the saga of five films?

1:55James MottramYeah, that's a good question. I guess you have to say the ob… the first one i… is such a landmark movie, but…

2:02Jawad MirRight

2:02James Mottram... Let's leave that aside, because I think that would be everyone's favorite Die Hard movie.

2:07Jawad MirSure.

2:07James MottramI think I was never a big fan of the second one, having bef… before, excuse me, before starting work on the book. The third one I always really enjoyed. The, you know, Samuel L. Jackson's character, excuse me, Samuel L. Jackson's character, absolutely fantastic in the film. So I always enjoyed the third one. And you know what? I kind of have a soft spot for the fourth one as well. It, you know, some people were kinda like, oh, with the sequence towards the end with the, you know, the fighter jet sequence and, you know, it, and the, they were like, "Oh, it's just getting too unrealistic." But I kind of like that one. I really like the Justin Long character and sort of his relationship with, John McClane. And, you know, it, as is the case when you write these books, even if there's a film you personally didn't connect with when you first saw it, you do...

3:08James MottramLike, sometimes the behind-the-scenes stuff is so fascinating you actually get more into the film.

3:13Jawad MirYeah.

3:13James MottramSo actually Die Hard 2, the story of how they made it is so f… is just lunacy, basically, what they were doing. You know, because obviously this is, like, 1990 or whatever. It's, it's, it's pre-CGI, basically. Well, you know, the very origins of…

3:32Jawad MirYeah

3:32James Mottram... CGI were kinda happening, but not in the case of this film. And, you know, the, it was one of those kinda classic Hollywood productions where they threw an awful lot of money at... You know, it was obviously supposed to be all snowbound, and they were literally chasing snow across the country, because of course it kept melting. And they were a… also, you know, creating fake snow here, there, and everywhere. And, you know, these days that's nothing. You know, you do that with computers easily. But then it was just that kind of, that certain lunacy that you get in Hollywood prod… Hollywood productions of old, I guess, where, you know, they had a, they had a s… they had a successful first movie. They had probably had a bit too much money, a bit too much license to do what they want, and, you know, they wanted to get it right. And yeah, so I kinda grew to love the second one having learnt more about the, you know, more about the backstory.

4:30Jawad MirRight. It's funny you mention that because aside from the first one, the one that I liked the most for a long time was the second one. But... And I didn't think much of the third one. But about 10 years ago, I re-watched it and maybe the age kinda thing kinda grew, you know, and made me realize how an amazing... The great thing about the first, third, and maybe even the fourth one is, especially the first and third, the antagonists are very strong.

5:00Jawad MirAnd the actors that play them, right? I mean, Jeremy Irons, I think this was before Lion King, like, as we know him as Scar. That voice, even in the trailer, like, if you just watch it, you know, Simon Says, it's just so profoundly amazing. The second one, I think the antagonist wasn't really well-crafted, and there wasn't really a sidekick per se as it was in the first one, third one, and the fourth one. And I was wa… Where was I watching this? This was, like, on my social media feed last week or something. I don't remember... Oh yeah, they were trying to cast Laurence Fishburne for Die Hard, 3. And, they really wanted him, but L… Laurence Fishburne's, agents and him kinda decided around that time that he's gonna only take on lead roles. That's it. And the producers of Die Hard ended up seeing, Pulp Fiction.

6:00Jawad MirI think it was Pulp Fiction, yeah, at Cannes, and they saw Samuel Jackson, and then that was it. That was like, "This is who we're going with. Forget Laurence." I mean, that really pivoted, aside from Pulp Fiction and many other films, Samuel's career. A… and his role in there was fantastic, you know, just a cab driver, and annoyed with John McClane, and trying to get by his day.

6:24James MottramBut I also really liked, you mentioned Jeremy Irons, the fact, excuse me, the fact that he was, you know, Hans Gruber's brother as well. I thought that was…

6:35Jawad MirYeah

6:35James Mottram... A really, a smart…

6:36Jawad MirYeah

6:36James Mottram... Idea. And, you know, he's not just doing it for revenge as to what happened to his brother, but I quite like the fact that there's this, network of gr… of sort of evil Grubers, you know, floating…

6:52Jawad MirYeah

6:52James Mottram... Around. I j… I just thought that was a really smart idea. And yeah, you're right. There was also, it was around the time of films like, In the Line of Fire, if you remember that movie, the Clint Eastwood…

7:03Jawad MirYep

7:03James Mottram... Film with

7:04Jawad MirYep

7:04James Mottram... John Malkovich.

7:05Jawad MirYep.

7:05James MottramAnd similarly, you got these kind of larger than life villains who were sort of tormenting their, you know, tormenting the good guy, on the telephone. It was sort of like, "Let's, let's call them up and then just kind of chase them…" "... Around the city." And, I mean, it, that goes back to sort of Dirty Harry, the original Dirty Harry, where you had, the Scorpion killer, harassing Clint Eastwood's character on the phone and, you know, sort of repeatedly making him run round the city.

7:39Jawad MirYeah.

7:39James MottramBut it's a great idea of just sort of, I guess these days we've all got mobile phones, but this was just sort of pre-mobile phones, where you had to sort of run to payphones and things like that. And

7:51Jawad MirYeah

7:51James Mottram... Yeah, I just kinda liked that. There was, there was kind of a lot of, a lot of thought in Die Hard 3, and it was also... It took you away from, you know, the first one obviously is all set in a building. The second one's all set around an airport. And the third one, you know, New York becomes that…

8:10Jawad MirYeah

8:10James Mottram... Character, that setting, and that gives it, gave it a lot more freedom, I thought, as a, as a film. I mean, you know, the Die Hard 2 had, you know, the airport setting was very well used in places, but there were a certain amount of restrictions I felt, you know. I, as I say, I kinda grew to love it, but I grew to love it more for what went on behind the scenes than,.. I mean, there were some great, there's some great people in, Die Hard 2. John Leguizamo turns up in it…

8:36Jawad MirYeah

8:36James Mottram... In a very early role. You know, the, it's, it's got a cool cast, but, yeah. It's, it, w… it wouldn't be... I think if I ranked it would be kinda one, three, and then I'm, then I'm, then I'm debating between two and four. Difficult. Probably, I might go for four.

8:55Jawad MirYeah.

8:55James MottramBut no, you know, that's…... A pers… a personal thing.

8:58Jawad MirNo, that's, that's all good, and I think, obviously there have been, there had been films before the original Die Hard where... But I think Die Hard, in an action genre, set that antagonist character, like Alan Rickman, the great Alan, late Alan Rick… Rickman played a fantastic... I mean, he was amazing in it. And that thing about brother revenge, if you wanna call it, that has been tried to be replicated in so many films, like Taken. I think it was also, if I'm not mistaken, The Equalizer with Denzel Washington, a bunch of other films. And they didn't really develop those characters that well, and the actors that played them were just, you know, just like, n… not like to the caliber of, you know, someone like Jeremy Irons, who has worked in theater and Broadway and everything. But yeah, what fantastic films, which leads me to my next question. What was the biggest surprise for you when you were writing these books, in terms of the production? You talked about a little bit of Die Hard 2, but just take it away from there, please.

10:00James MottramYeah. Well, there's a sort of famous story about, Bruce Willis, of course, being a, effectively a TV star when he was, you know, when he was cast. And they paid him $5 million, which then, I mean, now, I mean, that's, that's still obviously a huge amount of money to most of us.

10:20Jawad MirYeah.

10:20James MottramBut…

10:20Jawad MirYeah

10:20James Mottram... But in movie star terms now, that's probably not that much money. But back then, the idea of them paying, w… who, a man who was effectively a TV star… ... Hadn't really got a movie track record, and that sent shockwaves through the industry. They were all, everyone was kinda like, "What on earth are they doing? Then everyone's gonna start demanding, you know, the, this, these kind of fees." So that, you know, that was a huge gamble if you think about it, that they brought on a... You know, he's, he was an untested action star.

10:54Jawad MirYeah.

10:54James MottramAnd he was, you know, very different to Schwarzenegger and Stallone, those sort of big muscle-bound '80s heroes. You know, he was the new type of action star. I mean, he, you know, that's one of the reasons Die Hard has endured, I think, is because of Willis' sort of phenomenal, grounded, I suppose you'd say, performance. I mean, it's, you know, it, he brings in some of that kind of, you know, sort of wry commentary that he deploys on Moonlighting and in many films since, of course. But it just all seemed to coalesce so brilliantly on Die Hard. But it, but you just think, yeah, that was a huge gamble bringing that, you know, paying that amount of money. And then there's, you know, on the flip side, I remember the casting director saying she had to, teach Alan Rickman how to hold a gun when he was kind of auditioning because that's just not h… you know, that's not his thing either. You know, he w… he obvious… you know, as you were sort of alluding to with Jeremy Irons, he also comes from a sort of classical or came from a classical background.

11:59James MottramSo playing a, you know, playing a villain in this sense, in a, in an action movie sense, was not his kind of cup of tea. But, yeah, she d… she did good in the end because she got him through the audition, and he was fantastic

12:15Jawad MirYeah, no, so true. I mean, some of the scenes in the original Die Hard, and I g… I think one of the reasons along being grounded, Bruce Wil… Bruce Willis's character and his performance work because I think he was probably one of the first action heroes which showed vulnerability. Like, you know, and I think they did that in Predator afterwards and a bunch of movies. Maybe they did that in Rambo and First Blood, but in Die Hard it was like a pure action film where he gets, you know, he take, he takes one step forward, then he gets pushed 10 steps back. And that constant struggle, and then his interaction, with Alan Rickman's character without him knowing who he was, I mean, that scene itself is so well done from performance, lighting, direction-wise. And I watched that scene a lot of times because it just speaks so much about that whole film series and how they have sort of used that as a template for the rest of the films, and a lot of other action movies, too.

13:16James MottramIt's amazing to think that, I'm trying to remember now the exact, specifics, but originally because it was obviously based on a novel, Roderick Thorp's… ... Nothing Lasts Forever, and that was a sequel and then that was originally Frank Sinatra could have played this role.

13:37Jawad MirYes.

13:37James MottramHe was too old, obviously, and too rich I think was the quote. But, you know, he had no real interest. But can you imagine Frank Sinatra in Die Hard? It wouldn't have, it wouldn't have worked, obviously. But I do find it quite an amusing thought that he could have, you know, he could have been there in another, what... These days in the multiverse, let's say, they would say. In the multiverse…

13:59Jawad MirYeah

13:59James Mottram... Of Die Hard he could have been there.

14:02Jawad MirYeah. And I think what was so great about the first and the third one was the directors. I don't think the second one was directed by, what's his name? Renny…

14:12James MottramIt's Renny Harlin. I actually... It's, it's a funny story. I actually met Renny Harlin very recently in… I was in, at, in Cannes at the Film Festival, and he was at a party, and he was just sort of posing for photographs basically with people. So I kinda went up to him and said, "I'm the guy that wrote that Die Hard book." And, yeah, it was quite, it was quite bizarre. I mean, I don't know if you... You're probably aware that this book has been co-written. I'm guessing you've seen this.

14:39Jawad MirYep.

14:39James MottramIt's myself and David Cohen.

14:42Jawad MirYeah.

14:42James MottramAnd David actually was the person that started the book. And, he basically, well, I think he, I presume he still does, but he works for Variety, and he kinda got a promotion, so he sort of eventually had to step back from the book, and that's when I was brought on to sort of, you know, take over what he'd done. So he did a lot of interviews, David, for this book, and a lot of writing as well, for that matter. And one of his interviews was Renny Harlin, who I know that he chased for a long time before he got him, but, you know, he did obviously a great job when he got him. So yeah, I'd, I'd never had any contact with Renny Harlin until very recently. And, you know, he seemed interested in me sending him a copy of the book and gave me his details, and then, I've yet to hear back from him. But, maybe he's just been busy. I, you know, I'd like to send him a copy 'cause I think we did Die Hard 2, you know, some, a justice, let's say.

15:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, and nothing to take away from Die Hard 2. I just feel that John McTiernan, you know, had directed obviously Die Hard, the third one, Predator, Hunt for R… Red October. Majority of his films have been pretty good. I mean, I think the one that bombed the most, was Last Action Hero.

15:57Jawad Mir... I don't know if you remember that.

15:59James MottramI'm still not 100% sure if I've seen Last Action Hero.

16:02Jawad MirYeah.

16:03James MottramI feel like it's one of those that I might have seen, but it's, it's not... Well, I mean, m… all the other ones you've mentioned I've, I've seen, but…

16:09Jawad MirYeah. It was, it was an interesting concept, and it was basically about, this kid whose hero is this character that's played by Arnold Schwarzenegger. And I don't remember how, but that character comes into his real life and, or he goes into the movie world. I'm not sure which one it was. It's been a while. It was a fun film, but I don't think it clicked with the audience. And I think it came around the same time, if I'm not mistaken, Jurassic Park. Yeah, the same year. I think it was around the same couple of weeks the first Jurassic Park…

16:40James MottramIt was

16:40Jawad Mir... Came out.

16:41James MottramYeah. Yeah.

16:42Jawad MirAnd it probably didn't gain that much, attention. But any case, yeah, Die Hard, second one was amazing. And the fourth one, what I loved about the fourth one, yeah, there were some way unrealistic scenes in the film, but one scene that was really scary, and it's entirely possible, is that, especially nowadays, y… you know, let alone when it was made in 2007, that whole tunnel sequence when they hack into the electronic signage and they open the tunnels from both directions, so there's traffic coming from both towards them.

17:15James MottramThat's actually... You're right. That's a really well-done scene. No, I think it's got some great set pieces in it.

17:21Jawad MirIt does.

17:21James MottramThat's, that's, Len Wiseman, of course, directing that edition. But, yeah, I mean, Mc… McTiernan, yeah, he... I mean, particularly for the first one. The funny thing is he didn't wanna do the film originally. He took some persuading. But then I think he saw a way into the film. I mean, one of the, you know, he would admit this, one of his more pretentious kind of, assessments of the whole story was it was kind of like a Midsummer Night's Dream, the Shakespeare…

17:50Jawad MirYeah

17:50James Mottram... Comedy. And, you know, there are sort of, you know, fools and, sort of princes and so forth. And it... And you can, you can read, you can read into that analogy. It kind of works. Yeah, so y… y… I guess he was directing it with a lot of layers in mind, you know? Not… beyond it being an action movie. I mean, I think, again, that's why the film works so well, because the characters are extremely well-developed. I mean, it has the whole Western theme, of course, running through it as well, or at least… Western TV shows with lots of references to kinda Roy Rogers and things like that.

18:28Jawad MirYeah.

18:28James MottramAnd, you know, it's, it... Then you've got the whole American versus European sensibility, which is quite interesting. I mean, there's this…

18:39Jawad MirEspecially in the '80s.

18:40James MottramYeah. Well, there's also the American versus Japanese…

18:43Jawad MirYeah

18:43James Mottram... Aspect of, with the sort of Nakatomi Plaza and the…

18:47Jawad MirYeah

18:47James Mottram... The company, and that was kind of written at a time when sort of Japanese firms were coming into America and buying up property. So there's a lot of sort of, I wouldn't call it a political film, but there's sort of, there's, there's sort of a s… a political subtext that you can read into it if you want. And it, you know... And on top of that, it's a, I mean, ultimately I guess it's a love story between a, you know, a husband and his wife who he's kind of estranged from and wants to get back with and wants to show her, you know…

19:18Jawad MirYeah

19:18James Mottram... He knows he's been stupid and, you know. So there's a, there's a proper love story as well. And then all of those sort of supporting characters, you know, there was so, you know, the chauffeur, for example, I mean, is fantastic.

19:35Jawad MirJust a moment.

19:35James MottramYou know, just, he... And he, you know, he doesn't have much of a role in the sense that he's kind of in the, in the basement in the car just kind of bopping along to his tunes for most of the, film, but then he does get a little moment at the end. You know, so he gets a little, you know, he becomes a sort of, a savior in that arc. And then even most of the kind of, most of the Gruber's gang, they're not just sort of generic faceless villains. They've all got a little bit something about them. Even the guy that steals the candy bar from the, from the sort of, from the store. But, you know, it, there's, they always ha… they all have their little moments in it, and I think that's, that's one of the reasons why it's so memorable is just that there was a lot of thought put into that screenplay from the writers.

20:24Jawad MirYeah. Tr… so true. And I always find now, I mean, being in the, in the film industry myself, and, whenever now I do stuff, and I think I've sort of learned this over the, you know, by watching a lot of films like Die Hard, Schindler's List, Munich, Lion King, a lot... It's so important to have antagonist in your films, obviously pending the story, depending on what the story is, because that just makes the protagonist somewhat much more interesting. And I mean, you look at Lion King, it wouldn't have been Lion King if there was no Scar, you know. And obviously Jeremy Irons doing it, and then same thing with Die Hard. And I think we f… sometimes don't realize how significant the antagonist is, especially if he's play, played by a really good actor and if he's written or she is written really well. And I think that's what makes our heroes, because of the antagonist that they're dealing with.

21:25James MottramBut I guess with Die Hard as well, you've got the subplot with…

21:30Jawad MirYeah, for sure

21:31James Mottram... Co… the c… with the cop who's got his own issue, o… of having, you know, pulled the trigger in the past and, you know, does…

21:40Jawad MirEverybody's got a story.

21:41James MottramYeah. Everyone does have a story in the first Die Hard, I think. And, you know, perhaps that becomes more difficult in later films to sort of replicate. But it was a sort of, it's one of those lightning in a bottle moments. I mean, you know, there's the sort of story from Jeb Stuart, the original screenwriter brought on to adapt it…

22:03Jawad MirYeah

22:03James Mottram... How, you know, they, Fox didn't have a summer movie that year and, you know, they sort of, you know, they'd read the sort of, the initial draft and they were kinda like, "We're, we're rushing this into production," because they, you know. And again, that's, these days that, you know, studios have their summers planned for years in advance it feels like. So you kind of think, how fortunate was that they just had a gap and someone saw that could work, basically. And, you know, and it... Even then it's not guaranteed to work, and then you had, you know, Joel Silver, the producer, of course, effectively very nicely, in inverted commas, firing Jeb Stuart and basically saying, "It's not personal, but I'm gonna bring on…

22:50Jawad MirYeah

22:50James Mottram... My guy, Steven DeS… Steven E. Souza, DeSouza," who, you know, he'd worked with before and, you know, and he knew he would need to bring him on to kind of get the screenplay over the line. But yeah, it's... And, you know, and then getting McTiernan just at the right moment, you know, having them having worked on Predator, of course. And, yeah, it's sometimes the, some, you know, and then as I mentioned earlier, getting Willis at this perfect kinda moment, getting Rickman before anyone really knew who he was, at least…

23:24Jawad MirYeah

23:24James Mottram... In America, it was just a sort of, you know, what do you…

23:29Jawad MirEverything clicked.

23:30James MottramEverything clicks.

23:30Jawad MirEverything…

23:31James MottramThere you go. Yeah

23:31Jawad Mir... Everything. Right place, right time. And, I was talking to, a very reputable director in LA. I had coffee with him, and you, he and I were talking about films that, or even any kind of project, but specifically films. TV shows, film projects, books, almost entirely each and every one of them that are super successful, b… like Seinfeld, Harry Potter, Lion King, all these things that we, you know, come to love almost never happened and they got rejected so many times, like Star Wars. And there's a pattern that when you keep getting rejected, you know, but... And that doesn't happen all the time, but majority of the stuff that is super successful goes through a lot of stuff. Like City Slickers, for example. I don't remember the director's name. I don't know if you remember that movie, Billy Crystal, came out in…

24:24James MottramI remember it, yeah.

24:27Jawad MirThe studio thought that it wasn't gonna do well, so whoever the producer and director was, they had very high residual percentage, and the studio was okay with it. And when the film became successful obviously they, you know, they regretted it. But it led to a sequel, and I don't know if there was a third one. But those things really make a difference, you know, just keeping at it and sometimes things click, and that's when everything works.

24:55James MottramNo, definitely. And I guess, you know, Die Hard sort of, I think there were kinda spinoff video games and comics. And it's not really a... I don't look at it like a franchise like…

25:07Jawad MirYeah

25:08James Mottram... You know, Star Wars or the Marvel films or something. But, you know, it had enough... I suppose it was, it's all based around the McClane character, of course. And in a way…

25:17Jawad MirYeah

25:17James Mottram... That's quite limiting because it is really based around one person. You know, you might have the occasional character come in and out. You know, obviously he had the, you know, the fact he was sort of with his wife and then he was divorced from his wife. But, you know, in a way you, it's quite hard to build a franchise around one character. I suppose you could argue, well, they do that with Batman and Superman. But

25:38Jawad MirDifferent stories. Different type of film.

25:41James MottramYeah. Yeah, different type of film. But…

25:42Jawad MirWell…

25:43James MottramYeah, I don't know. It's, it's... Yeah, I was just gonna say, it's, it's, it's quite interesting they made it last for five movies, and that's probably testament to Bruce Willis more than anybody else. I mean…

25:53Jawad Mir100%

25:54James Mottram... Just the fact that people wanted to see him back in that white vest, so to speak, yeah, that's, that's all down to his performance. And, you know,.. You know, there was sort of like, not long after, well, as we were kind of finishing up this book, there was always talk of a sixth one, whether he…

26:14Jawad MirRight

26:14James Mottram... Might make a sh… a small appearance and maybe it would be a flashback-y kind of film where you'd see a younger McClane. And I'm kinda really glad they left it at five because…

26:25Jawad MirYeah

26:25James Mottram... I feel like that was, that was enough. I don't think we needed to see the young John McClane or…

26:32Jawad MirNo.

26:32James MottramThat's not to say they won't do that down the line, but

26:35Jawad MirMaybe. Maybe. But I think one of the things that I just while you were talking it just kinda occurred to me, the first one, fourth one had very much similar things, which was the first one was about the wife, and the fourth one there was that daughter character. And I'm not taking away from Justin or Bruce or anybody, but I think that strong daughter character in that film, among many other things, really made it strong. Like, she was, it was so well, I think it was so well-written, that character. And to me, now that I think about it, you know, it's funny how books and films and TV shows, we always kinda think them as a whole, which we should, but sometime there are these little minute things that get into our subconscious and then, you know, connect to us in a larger way. And for me, that was amazing the way they pulled off the daughter character. And the girl who performed it, I don't know what her name is, but what'd you think about that?

27:36James MottramYeah, I mean, I remember the... Isn't there a scene when she's kind of making out with some guy and he, McClane yanks open the door and practically yanks the guy out the car or something and

27:48Jawad MirYeah

27:48James Mottram... He is the sort of classic overprotective father, basically. And

27:55Jawad MirYeah

27:55James Mottram... You know, he, McClane is not, is not, he's not a new man, as they would say or a, you know…

28:02Jawad MirYeah

28:02James Mottram... He's, he's not, he's not very subtle. You can imagine he probably wasn't the best husband in, i, you know, not the most sensitive husband, let's say. And probably not the most sensitive father. But I think they... You're right, I think that gave, that showed a… another dimension to his character, that fourth film. I mean, the fifth one, of course, has his, has his son as well. So there's, you know, they go into that. But then they go on a sort of much more... Well, of course it's this, the fifth one is being set in Russia, so it's the first time it's taken…

28:38James Mottram... McClane out of his natural habit…

28:41Jawad MirComfort zone

28:41James Mottram... Habitat.

28:42Jawad MirYeah.

28:43James MottramAnd you know, and it, you know, and it, and he's, he's sort of on this wild ride with his son, which perhaps you could argue, you know, didn't work as well. I mean, yeah. I could assure you the fifth one was definitely the most difficult to write about, in the s… in the book.

29:00Jawad MirWhy is that?

29:01James MottramWell, because you... You know, I think most people would put the fifth one at the bottom if they were ranking the five films.

29:08Jawad MirYeah.

29:08James MottramBut when you write these books, you've, you know, you've gotta find positive things to say. You're not, you can't… Well, you know, you're not there to…

29:17Jawad MirI get it

29:17James Mottram... To…

29:17Jawad MirI get it

29:18James Mottram... To sort of like…

29:18Jawad MirYeah

29:19James Mottram... Rip the film apart. And, you know, a… again, the fifth one's got some great set pieces in it. There's that kind of, you know, there's huge, traffic sequence sort of all the way through Moscow, I think it is. And, you know, th… there's this, there's some great stunts in it. There's that kinda one where they're flying down a building and things like that. I mean, the… there's plenty to enjoy, but it's just whether you felt McClane out of, you know, you know, McClane out of, out of New York or out of America really worked. That said, I do think it has the best tagline of the five, which was…

29:59Jawad MirWhich one? What is it?

30:00James Mottram"Yippie-ki-yay, mother Russia." Which…... Which I think's pretty good. I mean, you know. That someone…

30:08Jawad MirYeah

30:08James Mottram... Some… it was almost like they thought of that tagline and thought, "Well, we've gotta have him in Russia 'cause that's really clever." But, and it is clever. I mean, you know, you can't really…

30:17Jawad MirIt…

30:17James MottramYou can't swear on posters, but that's coming close.

30:20Jawad MirRight. And it's, it's amazing that entire saga, I mean, j… saga, Bruce playing, Bruce Willis playing John McClane, almost 30 years Right? And I don't know, I ha… I don't, honestly don't remember the fifth one. I'm sure I've seen it. I am completely blank on it. But I wonder if sometimes those, like, people, if the age thing kinda comes into play too because now Bruce Willis obviously, you know, he's ill and then everything. But having to play that character for that long, I mean, I don't even... You know, Tom Cruise hasn't played Mission Impossible, has he? Almost. Yeah, it's almost similar. 1990…

31:00James MottramIt is. Although I guess in a way with Cruise, well, for a start he's probably had more successful films than Willis.

31:08Jawad MirYeah.

31:08James MottramJust because he's Tom Cruise and he's just…

31:10Jawad MirYeah

31:11James Mottram... Y… you know, he... But I don't know. If you, if you said to a Tom Cruise fan, you know, name your, name his most famous character, I'm not sure if people would say Ethan Hunt. They might. I mean, he's obviously done now what… whatever it'll be, seven or eight films by the time…

31:27Jawad MirYeah

31:27James Mottram... The Mission series is finished. But I think Willis is so i… inextricably kind of linked to McClane, I think most people would say John McClane is his most famous character.

31:39Jawad MirYeah.

31:39James MottramYou know, you could say Butch the boxer from Pulp Fiction, maybe, but i… you know, that was a o… that was one film, so... And you know, Moonlighting of course was a TV show, but that's not really repeated anymore. I think, I think most…

31:53Jawad MirUnbreakable. Unbreakable is one good one.

31:55James MottramYeah. That's true. The Unbreakable, The Unbreakable character, which he kind of reprised, didn't he, a couple of times more recently. So maybe that would get some traction amongst sort of, M. Night Shyamalan…

32:08Jawad MirYeah

32:08James Mottram... Fans, I guess. But I kind of think, you know, even now, I mean, I'm amazed that, you know, now we've, like the last few years it was, it, I've, it felt like it started around the time we were sort of writing the book, but it was probably going on before, where they were constantly talking about Die Hard being a Christmas movie. Is it a Christmas movie?

32:26Jawad MirYeah.

32:27James MottramI don't know when that dialogue started, so it was probably before the, we were writing the book. But it felt quite intense around that time. And it, you still get it now every year. And now you think it's, it's quite hard for a film, a film's legacy to survive, you know, 30, 40 years, whatever.

32:45Jawad MirYeah.

32:45James MottramI mean, it happens of course with, you know, s… Star Wars or Raiders of the Lost Ark or whatever. But the, there aren't so many films. And…

32:52Jawad MirYeah

32:53James Mottram... Yeah, for this, you know, for Willis, that i… that is his legacy, is John McClane. I mean, he's been in some fantastic movies of course. I mean, I'm a huge 12 Monkeys fan, the Terry Gilliam film.

33:04Jawad MirOh, God. That's an amazing film.

33:04James MottramYeah.

33:05Jawad MirThat's a…

33:05James MottramJust as an example. But that, you know, so, you know, I would pick that as one of my favorite, Bruce Willis performances, 'cause he's fen… he's phenomenal in it. But, and he's obviously great in Pulp Fiction too. But yeah, it's just something about the Die Hard legacy, perhaps because it spurred on the action movie in a way we hadn't seen before. And, you know, people still revisit it every year perhaps because of the Christmas connection.

33:29Jawad MirSure.

33:29James MottramYou know, the, it's, you know, it, you have all these obvious Christmas movies like Elf and, which is, you know, fantastic but…

33:35Jawad MirHome Alone

33:36James Mottram... Yeah, all of these things. But, I guess Die Hard is a slight alternative. You know, I will always vote for it to be a Christmas movie of course. I mean, lots of people have that, tradition of, you know, come Christmas Eve or whatever…

33:51Jawad MirSure

33:51James Mottram... Break out the eggnog, put on Die Hard, you know, wrap up your presents. Why wouldn't you? I mean, it's, you know, it's all set on Christmas Eve. I mean, it's, it's very Christmassy.

34:02Jawad MirNo, it's so true. It, you know, families would watch Home Alone one and two. And but Die Hard is just one of those films that, you know, just being in the comfort of your home with a blanket and while it's snowing outside and you're watching this guy trying to, you know, free hostages. And it's just an incredible series. Y… y… you said, you know, you came later on in the book, when you were writing the book. How was that different, if at all, than something that you sort of started, you know, from scratch?

34:32James MottramIt was very different. I mean, at the time it was, a bit of a kind of bring me on, can you get this done quickly. You know, they'd been working on it for a year and a half, the editor and he, and he, you know, like I said, he'd done loads of interviews. I had all this material sent to me, you know, via email, sort of Google Drives and things. Lots of research, lots of, transcripts of interviews. The manuscript had been written. Bits of it worked really well, some of it less so. Y… I think what, you know, the, one of the big, things that they hadn't got at that point was McTiernan. They tried for a long time and it hadn't happened for various reasons. And then as I say, the other author had to sort of move on because he had, you know, other work commitments.

35:23James MottramAnd my editor had somehow, I'm not quite sure how, but he'd secured McTiernan, you know, s… and it, that was pr… pretty much my first task, was, you know, read the manuscript very quickly, and then y… you know, do a long interview with McTiernan. And I was literally on the phone with him for something like two hours. He w… he was lovely. He was really nice, you know, gave me everything I needed to know. I mean, it's one of those y… you kinda wish you'd had a bit more time to sort of sink yourself…

35:58James Mottram... Into the Die Hard universe before landing the big fish, so to speak. But…

36:03Jawad MirYeah

36:04James Mottram... So that was kind of a bumpy start. Or not, well, not a bumpy start, but a kind of, whoa, that's, like, you're really having to get up to speed quickly. And yeah, it's, it's tough taking over someone else's manuscript and kinda trying to make it your own, and trying to improve what needed to im… be improved. Yeah, it was difficult. It was definitely one of the more difficult things I've ever done. You know, there were some, there were some brilliant passages in there, that David had written. And as I said earlier, he did, he did some great interviews, got some great people. And, you know, and, always with those Ultimate Visual History books, they, you know, they... You want them to be really good. You know, they are for the, for the fans basically. I think I... The last time we spoke, I think I mentioned this to you. Hang on one second.

36:58Jawad MirSure.

37:03James MottramI know this isn't gonna work for a podcast, but I can at least show you this. So, right, so this is a little poster I'm holding up called Yippee Ki-Yay.

37:11Jawad MirOh.

37:11James MottramSo this is basically... I'm gonna plug this because it's nothing to do with me, but it's quite interesting. If any of your listeners are in the UK, hopefully, maybe they'll bring it to America. They should do. So this is by a guy called Richard Marsh who…

37:25Jawad MirOkay

37:25James Mottram... It's a one-man show. And it's all based around the original Die Hard. He's playing various characters, but he's al…

37:35Jawad MirRight. You told me about that.

37:35James MottramYeah, I did tell you about it. And he's al… But at the time, so I did a... He's performed it a number of times. He performed it at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. He's been performing it in London. I went and did a Q&A with him. That was after we last spoke. And he's even got another guy now doing, you know, for s… for some shows that he can't do, he's got, like, a, another John McClane, so to speak. So he's…

38:01Jawad MirRight

38:01James Mottram... He's playing all these different roles, including McClane, Gruber. But the neat thing is it's kind of, it's also about his sort of l… relationship with his, the woman who becomes his wife, who becomes the mother of his children, and how they bonded over Die Hard originally. They kinda met on a Reddit forum. You know, that's, that's the narrative within…

38:22Jawad MirOh, nice

38:23James Mottram... The show. So it's ve… it's, it's a, it's as much about the Die Hard movie as it is about our kinda shared passion for films like Die Hard. So I just literally saw this the other day. I haven't spoken to him for a while, Richard, but he's now performing it at the Royal Albert Hall, which you probably know is one of our huge grand venues in London. And, it's part of the, there's a festival here called the London Action Festival, Action Film Festival…

38:53James Mottram... I think. And last year they had McTiernan at this festival doing a kinda big, you know, Q&A thing. This time they've got, the, one of the Die Hard writers, Steven de Souza, and I think he'll be performing it in front of de Souza basically.

39:10Jawad MirOh, wow.

39:10James MottramWhich would be so cool for him to sort of, you know. I, you know, they tried…

39:14Jawad MirYeah

39:15James Mottram... They tried to get people before, to, you know, for people connected to the film to see it. But, you know, McTiernan's not gonna fly from the States to London to see it. But for whatever reason they brought over de Souza. He's gonna get to see it. I think that's very cool. So

39:31Jawad MirThat is

39:31James Mottram... I've, I've gone on a complete tangent. I can't remember what you originally asked me.

39:35Jawad MirNo.

39:36James MottramBut…

39:36Jawad MirThis is, this is good. I actually would love to speak to Richard eventually when he, when he gets his

39:40James MottramI can certainly put you in touch with him because

39:42Jawad MirYeah, that'd be great 'Cause it sounds very fascinating

39:44James Mottram... And you'd, you'd love the show. It's, it's genuinely, I've seen it twice now. The first time I was literally in Edinburgh just as a, you know, doing my day-to-day film journalism work, and I was w… aimlessly wandering around the city as you do, and I just saw a poster for it and thought, "Well, I can't not go and see that." And it was... You know, 'cause often you can see these Edinburgh shows and they're not always so great, but this was, it, very fun. And you know, it worked second time around just as well. So I hope some of your listeners get a chance to see it. As I say, it's called Yippee Ki-Yay. I've got no skin in the game beyond the fact I did a Q&A with him. But, yeah, it's, it's, you know, but it shows you how, like the people, the audience that was there, certainly for the second time I saw it, there were so many Die Hard fans in the audience, you know. They got all the jokes. There's obviously a ton of references, of course, to the actual movie. And that, again, it shows you the, you know, well, like we know, we talked about Jurassic Park not so long ago, and I think…

40:47Jawad MirYeah

40:47James Mottram... Perhaps the fandom for Jurassic Park is bigger than Die Hard, but…

40:50Jawad MirSure

40:50James Mottram... The Die Hard, the Die Hard fandom is still huge. You know, the, I think it goes back to people's, well, childhoods, teenagehoods as it does…

40:59Jawad MirYeah

41:00James Mottram... As it does for me, you know? And

41:01Jawad MirSure

41:02James Mottram... The, it's, it, the first film I think is just ingrained in people's psyches, I guess. I mean, like, probably more than most 1980s movies.

41:14Jawad MirYeah, because up until then, a lot of movies that came about hostage were more so on the planes, like, you know, hijacking a plane, and I think that was the first one, I could be wrong, where it was like a building, right? Like, you're, you're not... And there was, it w… and the, well, like we talked about a lot of other things. But, you know, I, if I'm in London next time, I'm definitely gonna go check that out and,.. Because, and I think the reason that works, I haven't seen it obviously, but from what you just told me, we live in a day and age, and I think we always did, but now we're more aware of it, where if you can wrap around something, if you can wrap around a bigger piece, Die Hard in this case, around your personal journey, it just clicks with the audience way more than you just trying to, you know, perform Die Hard, and I think that's what works with that, is because people can probably relate to it in other films like Star Wars or Jurassic Park, that how their family life is affected and how the wife probably thinks that you're a nut job because you're, you know, watching Star Wars all the time or going to these conventions.

42:17Jawad MirSo I think that's the main thing that clicks among many other things, for sure.

42:22James MottramYes. No, definitely. No, yeah, I do hope you get to see it 'cause it's a lot of fun.

42:26Jawad MirI will.

42:26James MottramBut yeah, it…

42:27Jawad MirI will

42:28James Mottram... Just shows you that… yeah, Die Hard doesn't die really. It's, you know, it's, and then there were people…

42:34Jawad MirThat's a good tagline.

42:34James MottramThere you go. It's not as good as the Yippie Kayay, Mother Russia…

42:38Jawad MirYeah

42:38James Mottram... But it's, it, we'll work on it. But yeah, there, it was, you know, it was a sweet experience 'cause there were people there, like they didn't really advertise me being there, they just said there was gonna be a Q&A, and then there was a girl in the audience who was like, "Oh, I've read your book, you know, I really liked it," and 'cause they're all Die Hard fans, so a lot of them had probably bought it at some point or another.

42:56Jawad MirYeah.

42:56James MottramBut, yeah, so that's kinda like, that's one of the pleasures of doing these kind of books is because there's such intense fandom for the film, you know, you know people are gonna buy it and read it and, you know, you're trying to give them as best a story, you know, behind the scenes story as possible.

43:15Jawad MirYeah.

43:15James MottramBut, yeah.

43:17Jawad MirAnd I think it's also because had these books come out, let's say, 20 years ago, the audience for that probably, because now I think, you know, all these books that are coming out, the ones some of them you have worked on, especially from the films in the past, it kinda like takes us back to our childhood and we want, we want to sort of relive it and, you know, maybe in the middle somewhere we forgot about those films for whatever reason, life and work and everything, and family. But I think now it's that, and I'm so glad that these books are coming out. I just enjoy them so much. I don't enjoy as much as the ones that are coming out on current films. Don't get me wrong, I like them, like Avatar, Jurassic World, but there's just something about nostalgia, right, of older books and which leads me to my last and next question, not that what you're working on, but what film series would you like to work on if there was market for it, if there was audience for them that you would love to dive into and do research on?

44:17James MottramWow, that's a really good question. Well, let me think. Yeah.

44:24Jawad MirNo worries. Take your time.

44:25James MottramYeah, no, it, well, this is a TV show, but I don't even know if you'd know it because I don't know how familiar you'd be.

44:32Jawad MirName it, maybe…

44:32James MottramIt's a British T… it's a British TV show called Peep Show. Does that mean anything to you?

44:37Jawad MirNo.

44:37James MottramOh, no.

44:37Jawad MirNo.

44:37James MottramThere's no reason why you would, although they've tried to remake it in America about three or four times and failed miserably. But you will know, Succession presumably, the

44:47Jawad MirYeah

44:48James Mottram... Yeah.

44:48Jawad MirYeah.

44:48James MottramSo Jesse Armstrong, who is the creator of Succession, who's, who's British, Peep Show was his breakout TV show basically, which he create, co-created with a guy called Sam Bain, and it's, it's about two sort of, 30-something male flatmates, and it's, you know, it's, it's about, it's a sitcom about their life. But the sort of the selling point you could say is you can hear the interior monologues of both characters at a certain point, usually with them cursing each other out over various things, and that's just a TV show I've become... I was pretty obsessed with it when it was on, and it finished in about 2015 after nine seasons.

45:31Jawad MirYeah.

45:31James MottramAnd, it, because it's on Netflix, certainly in the UK it's on Netflix, I'm not sure about overseas, but…

45:39Jawad MirIt's on Prime, Amazon Prime here in the States

45:41James MottramOh, is it on Amazon Prime? Yeah.

45:42Jawad MirYeah.

45:43James MottramSo yeah, it, because it's just, it, you know what these streaming things are like, they're so easy just to sort of click and watch another episode. So I've just become quite obsessed by that show. But I, it, but that's not really a kind of a making of film franchise. But I would like to, I've often thought about I would like to do a book on Peep Show just because…

46:04James Mottram... Maybe it'll, maybe it'll purge me of this complete obsession over that TV show. What else? Well, I'd love to do a book on, Heat, the Michael Mann. It's not a, it's not a film franchise obviously, although it kind of is…

46:19Jawad MirNo

46:19James Mottram... Because there's LA Takedown, the original one, and then, and then there may be Heat 2 if they, if they get their, you know, if they get…

46:30Jawad MirIsn't there some sort of a prequel of Heat maybe?

46:32James MottramWell, there's a, there's a book that he's written…

46:35Jawad MirYeah. All right

46:35James Mottram... Which is kind of a prequel and kind of a sequel, and they are in severe talks to have that made into a film. I mean, there's lots of casting talk at the moment. You know, o… one can never tell if these things will happen.

46:47Jawad MirYeah, I know. Yeah.

46:48James MottramBut sudden… suddenly Heat becomes kind of like a mini franchise. I mean, you know, you could say Star Wars as well because I grew up on Star Wars, but I'm, like I've got this... Where is it? No, I can't see it. It's on my floor somewhere. Someone sent me a Return of the Jedi screenplay book where it had all these alternate, dr… references to the alternate drafts. You know, that kind of stuff I find fascinating, but Star Wars is such a monster now of a kind of franchise.

47:22Jawad MirYeah.

47:22James MottramYou know, I watch all those Disney+ shows, and yet I've not really watched any of the ani… animated cartoons and things. So I still feel like even though I've watched a lot of Star Wars, I still feel like I don't know anything anymore because the universe is so vast.

47:37Jawad MirYeah.

47:37James MottramYou know, there's so many books and comics and video games and all of that stuff. So I think doing a Star Wars book would be very difficult.

47:46Jawad MirIt, and there is a lot of stuff. I mean, there's, I don't know if you've seen this series, by Vice. I was talking to the producer director of it. It's called Icons Unearthed. It's literally, I've only se… I actually saw it done with my kids when we watched the first two episodes. I think it has four or six, but it dives into so many things. I mean, if you love Star Wars, watch it. It, especially the first episode, like it was just unheard of stuff that I did not know about. And it ta… and it, they interviewed George Lucas' ex-wife, who was the editor on the first film and it's a lot of new stuff. But, you know, that, having said that, I think Heat would be great. I actually watched it recently, and three and a half hours long… I mean, imagine that being made nowadays with some exceptions, and it's still such an amazing scene, film with that, bank robbery scene towards the end. I mean, that shootout is incredibly crafted. It's similar to what Die Hard would do, but in a very artistic way by Michael Mann, of course.

48:50James MottramYeah. I mean, I, haven't revisited Heat for quite a while, but I have revisited Thief, the movie he made with James Caan not that long ago where I got a chance to see it on the big screen. And, yeah, I mean, Thief is just, you know, mag… I mean, all of his, nearly all of his films are magnificent, but Thief is just a brilliant spectacle. And yeah, it's... I don't know. Now I'm thinking about it, you mentioned Mission Impossible earlier. That I did think about, pitching to the guys behind the Ultimate Visual History series. But now there are so many, now there's effectively, what, eight? Well, there will be eight movies.

49:35Jawad MirYeah. You have to make like three books or two books.

49:38James MottramYou would have to. Well, you'd definitely have to split it in two.

49:40Jawad MirYeah.

49:40James MottramAnd then you suddenly think, "That's a lot of work." and of course, you would have to get Tom Cruise. You can't not do one of those books without him.

49:50Jawad MirYeah, it's impossible.

49:50James MottramNo. Not only because obviously he's the star of all of the movies, but he's so integral to how those books are, sorry, how those films are made. And yeah. Any…

50:02Jawad MirIt's funny you mention that because when I asked you that question, in the back of my mind I was thinking about Mission Impossible.

50:07James MottramI think it would make a brilliant couple of books because…

50:10Jawad MirIt would be incredible

50:11James Mottram... And also you have s… n… never mind, his contribution, you know, you think you've got De Palma, John Woo, J.J. Abrams

50:24Jawad MirBrad Bird

50:25James Mottram... Brad Bird, and then we get into the sort of McQuarrie…

50:29Jawad MirYeah

50:29James Mottram... Chris McQuarrie years. And, you know, that's a lot of interesting directors behind all of these movies. You've obviously got a fantastic cast all the way through. No, there'd be a lot to cover. You know, obviously they, probably nearly everyone has got some unbelievable stunt or several stunts that would be brilliant to sort of pick apart in the way that you do in those books. But yeah, it would be a lot of work. That would be a, that would be an epic project, basically.

50:55Jawad MirI sure hope they consider it because next year is the last film, at least with Tom Cruise, or it's gonna be for a long while. And I mean, that would be just incred… Not that the film needs any publicity. I mean, I think Mission Impossible 7 at least is gonna beat out Avatar and Top Gun in terms of box office, the way the buzz is and the way the trailers and all that stuff is. But still, having to know in a compilation of one or two books or three books, what went through it. I mean, yeah, there's interviews, there's all these DVD features, but still, you know, having a physical book in your hand and just learning about that masterful franchise which keeps getting better film after film…

51:38James MottramYeah

51:38Jawad Mir... Would be incredible.

51:39James MottramYeah. I mean, how they push themselves with each film. It, yeah, it, they, each... I think, you know, n… the, funnily enough, the second one was kind of not great, and then the third one I quite enjoyed, but some people were quite critical of it. But after that…

51:54Jawad MirI loved the third one.

51:55James MottramYeah, I really like the third one.

51:56Jawad MirI loved that.

51:56James MottramI mean, you know, you've got Philip Seymour Hoffman as the villain.

51:59Jawad MirYeah.

52:00James MottramYou can't go wrong there. But i… in terms of, I suppose, the craziness of the stunts, they've got more and m… the older Cruise has got, the more, the more crazy he's…

52:12Jawad MirI know

52:12James Mottram... Sort of become in terms of doing those stunts. And they've just been... You know, hanging off the side of an airplane is just insane, basically.

52:21Jawad MirI think that's the worst one he has done in terms of safety. Like, that's the crazy, because at least with the motorbike one or the most recent one that's coming up, he had a parachute and everything. Yeah, it's not safe, but with that one, I mean, they were just literally just hanging off a plane.

52:36James MottramYeah. I mean, the other, I suppose the other franchise that would merit one of those Ultimate Visual History books, and I know we've talked a bit about this before, is the Indiana Jones franchise.

52:46Jawad MirYeah.

52:46James MottramBut again, it would be difficult because you'd, you'd need to get time with Harrison, you'd need to get time with Spielberg. You know, they're…

52:53Jawad MirOf course

52:53James Mottram... Not impossible, but not easy either. So, you know, the… these are the kind of things you do have to consider because you want, you know, you want, you want your reader to have the best access possible.

53:05Jawad MirYeah.

53:05James MottramAnd that's not... And the older these people get, you know, it's not always easy to get them.

53:11Jawad MirI know. So how does it work? It's just kind of my last thing. When you pitch something to the publisher, like do they go to the licensing department of the studio? Do they sta… do their market ser… research first to see if there is a market for it? Or what's the process like?

53:25James MottramWell, it's, it's often been more that they will have struck deals with various studios or had conversations with them, and they will probably be pitching to them, "Well, how… ... About a book on the Die Hard franchise, or how about a Jurassic book?"

53:41Jawad MirYeah.

53:41James MottramAnd then they'll choose their author, and, you know, they're, obviously they're trying to select someone who's gonna have a, you know, certain amount of enthusiasm, of course, for the project.

53:51Jawad MirSure.

53:52James MottramYeah, so it's not that I've not really... I've, you know, I've mentioned different things to the editor in the past of things that would be... Like I mentioned Mission Impossible, and I think that's something they might have talked about at one point, but I don't know how far that got in the conversation. Again, like I say, you need to have, you know…

54:12Jawad MirAccess

54:13James Mottram... The be… the best access. So, yeah, it's, it, I suppose the pitching thing is not really my conversation. It's more one that they're having…

54:21Jawad MirRight

54:22James Mottram... With the studios. You know, and they, you know, they're all about fostering good relationships with the studios c… you know, and I think their books speak for themselves. They're, you know, they're beautifully laid out. They're beautifully sort of designed and, you know, hopefully the text is, you know, is good as well. So…

54:41Jawad MirYeah

54:41James Mottram... Yeah, that, I think that's why they get repeat business, let's say, from the, from the studios because…

54:47Jawad MirSure

54:47James Mottram... You know. And it's a great way of, I suppose furthering interest in the franchise. I mean, you know…

54:53Jawad Mir100%

54:54James Mottram... These movies are only, you know, made every few years, so, it's always quite good to have these things come out in between the films and to s… stimulate interest, yeah, in the, in the franchise even further.

55:07Jawad MirSure. Thank you so much for your time, James. I appreciate it.

55:10James MottramNo worries. Cheers. Take care.

55:10Jawad MirHave a great evening. Bye-bye.

55:11James MottramYou too. Bye-bye.