'Transformers, Rise of the Beasts', Editors, William Goldenberg & Joel Negron

0:08Jawad MirWell, thank you so much for joining. I really, wanted to speak to you about the most, recent Transformers, film, Rise of the Beasts. And, you know, before I sort of dive into it, I just sorta wanna give you guys a little bit of a context of how much I've appreciated both of your work over the years working on different films, you know, like Air, Argo, then Michael Bay films like Transformers and Pain & Gain. So truly great to be, y… you know, enjoying both of your work over the years.

0:44Guest 2Oh, thank you.

0:44Guest 1Thank you. Yeah.

0:47Jawad MirGreat. I would love to... Normally this is the first time I've had, like, two guests. It's always been one, so this is gonna be something a little bit, different. I always like to sorta get started with the background of each individual as to how they got into the industry and what their story and journey is. So whoever sorta wants to take on that, and then followed by the other, that'd be, that'd be super cool.

1:13Guest 1Yeah. Sh… I'll go f… first.

1:16Jawad MirOkay.

1:19Guest 1I went to film school in Philadelphia, and fell in love with editing there, and, came out here to try and be an editor, and, you know, got jobs. You know, first non-union jobs and then got into the union and worked my way up as an apprentice, and then, and worked on films like... I w… I got to work on The Breakfast Club and, Firestarter and some, you know, o… o… really old films. And, then I got a chance to work as Michael Kahn's first assistant, who's been Steven Spielberg's editor for 50 years at this point…

1:59Jawad MirYep

1:59Guest 1... I think.

1:59Jawad MirYep.

2:00Guest 1And I worked for him for four years, and, he sort of trained me to be an editor, you know, in, you know, how to cut, how to handle the politics, you know, how to think about s… you know, scenes and drama and, you know, he really was, like, the world's greatest graduate school. And then I was able to... He... I worked on a film called Alive with him, and, I was the first assistant, and, he knew, it was, it was time for me to start cutting on my own, so he moved me up on that film to share credit with him. And, then he left after the director's cut, and I finished the film with the director, and I've been cutting since then. And, my f… fourth film I think I cut was Heat, and, after that happened, things started to really take off for me. And, so it's been... I think I've worked every day since, I'm pretty sure.

3:02Jawad MirI'll, I'll come back to you or some of your films in a second. Bef… I just wanna get ahead to... Joel, would love to hear your background and how you… ... Got into films.

3:12Guest 2Well, like, I was, kinda grew up in the film industry 'cause my dad was in the film industry. He was a illustrator and a conceptual painter, and he did... He worked, in the '60s on movies like, Tora! Tora! Tora! And, the original Dr. Dolittle. He worked for Disney for a while. So I kind of knew the, knew the business a little bit, and I was in the business. But I went to school for radio, TV 'cause I thought I might wanna get into radio, TV, and I started, doing music videos for my friends 'cause I, you know, had video cameras and things like that. And, I started... I did, I went out and shot and directed and made these music videos for my friends, and, my friends' bands. You know, I had a bunch of friends that were in bands. And, I decided that I didn't really like going as much. I didn't like going out there and shooting 'em and setting the cameras up. My favorite thing was to come back and do the editing, and I really enjoyed that, and I, and I decided that's what I wanna do. I wanna be an editor. And, I was pretty young at the time, and then since my dad was in the movie industry, I did some work for him.

4:15Guest 2I met some people through him. In fact, I met Billy one day. I think I was still in college. I can't remember. He was work… He was an apprentice editor, and I wanted to, I wanted to meet the editor, and I wanna meet the team, and I went, and, what movie was that? Jojo Dancer?

4:31Guest 1Yeah, it was Jojo Dancer, Your Life is Calling, which I was an apprentice. I r… I met, I met you and your dad way back.

4:39Guest 2Yeah.

4:39Guest 1I don't know what year it was.

4:40Guest 2And Don... And I went and met Don Cameron, who was the editor, and I saw his setup and I thought... And that's when I really was definitely get… getting interested in editing. And then I just, started, just working my way up. I started out, working on trailers and TV spots for, you know, different, independent trailer companies. And, this is a little bit of a longer story, but I learned the Avid because, people weren't really using it in features. They were using it more in commercials and music videos.

5:15Guest 2So I learned how to use the Avid Media Composer, which is a editing system that

5:19Jawad MirYep

5:19Guest 2... Is in, is the standard today. And so, I started training, some other editors on the, on the Avid. In fact, Avid Technologies hired me to train editors. So I met, a few editors. I met this guy, Sidney Wolinsky, who, hired me to be his, slash trainer, assistant, and, that was for, a TV sh… a TV movie of the week. And then from there I went and, I met Conrad Buff, who was, you know, a pretty big-time editor who's done a lot of, a lot of features.

5:58Guest 2Started working for him, then I started working for this guy, Chris Lebenzon, and then I just started moving my way up the rank. We did a lot of Tim Burton movies, and I went from being an assistant to an additional editor on the Tim Burton movies. And then, and then eventually I got my own movie to cut and over the years, all of the producers and directors I've met, t…

6:19Guest 3Came back, you know, that I've met came back to me, and they were interested that I was editing, so then they hired me to edit some of their movies. One of them was Joel Silver, one of them was Neil Moritz, who, does all the Fast and Furious movies, and, Jerry Bruckheimer as well. Would, you know, once he heard I was been editing, he called me in to do some work for him, and then Michael Bay called me to do some work for him. And I did because I had done, as an additional editor, I had done, Pearl Harbor and Armageddon. So he called me to do the first Transformers, which I couldn't do. I ki… I think I turned him down 'cause I had something else, and which…

6:57Guest 3... You know, maybe that was a mistake, I don't know. But then I did the second and the third Transformers after that, and then been working ever since, as Billy said. Every day, every s…

7:07Jawad MirWonderful. So B… Billy, can I call you Billy, or is it William, or…

7:10Guest 3Sure. Yeah, everybody does.

7:12Jawad MirYeah, well, first of all, I, after a long time, it's so funny you mention those three names, Breakfast Club, Alive, and Heat. I had seen those films when they first came out. In fact, Heat was something that I studied, as part of film school myself, but all those three films... And Alive, I think, was directed by Frank Marshall, right?

7:33Guest 3Yeah.

7:34Jawad MirYeah. So different from each other but so well put together, and bre… especially I think Breakfast Club seems to be the easiest film to cut, but I, in my view, I think it's probably the most challenging one, among the three titles that you said, at least for me, the way I look at it. Because difficult to move that story forward, you know, being in just in one, i… in a school essentially over a course of a day, I think, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, so…

8:00Guest 3Yeah, they were in…

8:00Jawad Mir... Just wanted to…

8:01Guest 3... Saturday detention for the day.

8:02Jawad MirYeah. Just wanted to mention that the, I mean, very different films but very well put together.

8:07Guest 3Well, let me just make it... I didn't edit The Breakfast Club, but Dede Allen did, who was, a legendary…

8:13Jawad MirOkay

8:13Guest 3... Editor. And, I, was the apprentice, and it was a big, you know, I was so charged up about working…

8:20Jawad MirGot it

8:21Guest 3... For her. She's cutting Reds, and she cut Dog Day Afternoon and Little Big Man.

8:25Jawad MirYeah.

8:26Guest 3You know, Bonnie and Clyde, and she's, was a legendary editor and a legendary personality. I mean, she had a very l… large personality and, you know, would break o… would s… say, you know, we do edit things, and, like, they would, she would go, "Well, this is, they say you can't do this 'cause it's against the rules." And then she would, whatever I, whatever it was, and then do it anyway and laugh because she, you know, she just thought she was a very rebellious-type person. And even though I was the apprentice on that film, I get more... People react more about that than anything I've ever done. Like, a… any feature I've cut myself or whatever, anything. If I say I worked on The Breakfast Club, everybody gets really excited. I mean, it's, it really is a movie that is, withstood the test of time, and it was hard to edit. Those, there was a tr… the first cut was, like, three and a half hours long, and there was a tremendous amount of footage and a tremendous amount of improv and a lot of, you know, then they were shooting on film so the magazines…

9:26Jawad MirYeah

9:26Guest 3... Were 10 minutes long, and almost every take was 10 minutes long. You'd just run the magazine out and then g… you know, and then load up again. So it was, there w… a… and she really cut that film by herself, too. I mean, John Hughes was there every so often, but that was Dede.

9:43Jawad MirYeah.

9:43Guest 3She was incredible. Now I should make…

9:46Jawad MirAnd I, as much as I, you know, I appreciate that, and thank you for that correction. As much as I don't ever wanna see it, but it'd be curious to see if that original three-and-a-half-hour cut can be tu… turned into a miniseries. Like, you know, nowadays everything is a series. It would be, it'd be fascinating to see. But yeah, I mean, it's a great film, and then, Joel, on the Armaged…

10:05Guest 3I actually, I actually have the three-and-a-half-hour cut.

10:07Jawad MirDo you really?

10:08Guest 3John Hughes' wife and me have the, have the... I, when I…

10:11Jawad MirOh, wow

10:11Guest 3... When we were packing up for the show, I said to D… it was all on VHS, you know, and I'd asked Dede, "Can I keep this?" I kept the first cut, and I kept, like, the final cut with, before the visual effects and before the real music was in. I have them on VHS, and I think I've had them transferred to DVD as well. And as far as I know, I think John Hughes' wife has the copy, and I have a copy.

10:37Jawad MirWow

10:37Guest 3... That no one, now, no one knows until now, I guess.

10:42Jawad MirWell, that, I mean, that's, that's gold, right? Like, to have something like that in your possession and of such a great…

10:48Guest 3Yeah

10:49Jawad Mir... Film as well, and John Hughes was an amazing, filmmaker. And, you know, J… Joel, your earlier work was Armageddon, I think you mentioned. I… you worked with Richard Francis, right?

11:03Guest 3Richard Francis-Bruce.

11:04Jawad MirYeah.

11:04Guest 3No, he was, Richard Francis-Bruce was on, he wasn't on Armageddon, no. He was on, The Rock. He did the whole

11:12Jawad MirI think he was on Armageddon as well. Maybe I'm mistaken.

11:15Guest 3There were a lot of editors. I don't think he was one of the editors on that.

11:18Jawad MirOkay. Okay, because I spoke to him a few times about Shawshank, Green Mile, and The Rock, so I... And IMDb, I think, says, too, Armageddon. I didn't speak to him on Armageddon, but I remember the credits, so that's... IMDb sometimes is not accurate about information.

11:33Jawad MirBut, you know, working with Tim Burton as, you know, working on his films, not as an editor but assistant editor, what did you… ... Learn working on the, o… on films like his? Like, they're just completely different films, right? Like, he has a very unique touch and approach to his…

11:48Guest 3Yeah, I, yeah, I was, I started out as assistant editor, but then t… toward the later films I did with him, I was an, I was an additional editor and also got an editor credit on Sleepy Hollow. The thing I learned, the best thing about working for Tim, or what I, what I really learned about working for Tim, is just how he's, he's got a, an amazing eye for design. And every single shot, if you look at any of his movies…

12:12Guest 3... Every single shot is a beautiful, well-designed, image. And he's also, he also comes from animation.

12:23Jawad MirYeah.

12:23Guest 3So if his movies, you can't really tell, but there's not a whole lot of coverage.

12:28Guest 2And there's not a whole lot, he doesn't do a whole lot of takes either. He's just, you know, what he'll do is he'll do a wide shot and say, "Okay, from this line to this line." And then he'll go to a medium shot and another medium shot, this line to this line. It's basically, well, how, very much how animation works. And, you know, the editor I worked with, Chris Lebenzon, would say, "Oh, well just cut the slates off, and then just put the scenes together." And that's, it wasn't really like that, but it was very close to doing that. It was, it was, well planned out, well designed. And what happened, what happens with Tim is you kind of get the gist of his, style, and you just go with it. And that, and the rest of the crew kind of follows along, too, like the production designer, the costume designers, the DP, you know, everybody just kind of knows his... He's got a very unique style that, you know, you put some, a frame up of one of his movies, you'll say, "That's a Tim Burton movie." And I kind of realized that after the first couple of movies I did with him.

13:32Guest 2And I thought, that's super, it's, I was, I felt really privileged to be working for a guy like that, because there's very few directors like that. You know, there's, there's, like, maybe, you know, Steven Spielberg, or there's some of the classic directors from the, you know, the '40s and '50s, where you go, "Oh yeah, that's a, that's a John Ford movie," or, "That's a…

13:52Jawad MirYeah

13:52Guest 2... You know, that's a David Lynch movie. So anyway, it was just, it was really m… it was really, I felt really privileged to e… to be starting my career. 'Cause Mars Attacks was the first Tim Burt… Mar… Tim Burton movie I did, and that was my second or third feature ever. So, and, I just felt really privileged to be starting out that way.

14:17Jawad MirI gotta tell you, Mars Attacks is one of my favorite alien films ever made. It's, it's, one of the best movies, to date. You know, it's a totally different film, but it's typical Tim Burton style. So a wonderful film to work on, for sure.

14:29Guest 2Yeah. My son used to come into the cutting room and I used to show him scenes when he was three, and he would, he would, w… he'd run around the house shooting Martians all day. Hopefully he's okay. I mean, he's, he's older now, and he seems okay. Hopefully didn't ruin his, you know, his childhood, but I think he's okay.

14:48Jawad MirYou know, one of the things you mentioned about was coverage, right? And that's something I noticed in Transformers: Rise of the Beasts, that y… you talked about wider angles and I, when I... I hadn't seen it in theaters though, because honestly, when it first came out, I thought, "Here we go, another Transformers movie." That was my initial reaction. But I actually sat down with my kids because I had heard it was really good, and I was very impressed by the way it came out. And coverage was something I really appreciated, and I've s… sort of mentioned this over and over again on this podcast to different people I've spoken to, is that nowadays tighter shots, because they hide certain things, and cut… cutting back and forth really is a very common thing, and I didn't find that in this film. Was that something that you guys worked with, Steven the director on, or was it more, like, both of you together? What was that process like? Was it, was it a lot of coverage on the other, like, in tighter shots as well, or was that what you got?

15:47Guest 2Yeah. Do you wanna go, Billy?

15:49Guest 1No, you go. I'm sorry.

15:51Guest 2Well, I would, I would say coverage for most of the work that I did o… on, Rise of the Beasts, 'cause I came in, Billy started it and I came in and finished it. And, it was, it was done with the visual effects and the animation, you know? So what we did is we saw what we had, and then we, w… every t… if we needed additional shots or we needed a wider shot or we needed to tell the story with a slightly different angle, we would get a previs artist to, design the shot for us, and then we would cut that in. Steve, Steven, the director, had a, has a pretty good eye, and he had a, he had a pretty good sense of what angle need… we needed to get to tell the story. But a lot of it was told, you know, later on in animation. A lot of the, a lot of the pieces were put together later on. Like, the entire third act was all done…

16:50Guest 2... Post, the principal photography. So, it, you know, we ended up, you know, trying a lot of things, doing a lot ex… experimenting with, storyboard artists and with previs artists. And then we, that's how we came up with the patterns that we used to cut the, at least the final battle.

17:13Guest 1I mean, Machu Picchu, he was very, you know, obviously... First of all, the robots are huge, and Machu Picchu's such a, you know, cinematic place that he did get a lot of coverage there, especially, you know, to, you know, set the pla… you know, set the place and the environment and, you know, get a vibe for where they were. You know, and y… and Michael Bay as well, you know, you get... I don't think anybody shoots more coverage than Michael.

17:42Jawad MirThat's true

17:42Guest 1... It's shocking how much he, coverage you can get. But, you know, they both directors really pay a lot of t… attention to the environment, because they're shooting in, you know, both those movies, or all those movies, I mean, they shoot all over the world in these incredible places. So they're very, you know, they're, both directors are very cognizant of getting, you know, big wide shots to, you know, let the audience enjoy the place as well as the story.

18:10Jawad MirRight. Okay. And both of you guys ca… never worked simultaneously, right? It was more like one came in and then the other?

18:17Guest 1Yeah.

18:18Jawad MirAm I correct?

18:18Guest 1Yeah.

18:19Jawad MirAnd…

18:19Guest 1Like, right, yeah

18:21Guest 2Like, weeks, you know, maybe two weeks after he left…

18:24Guest 1Yeah

18:24Guest 2... I came.

18:25Guest 1I…

18:25Jawad MirAnd that,.. Sorry, go on.

18:27Guest 1Oh, I was, I had a, you know, obligation on another movie, and…

18:30Jawad MirYeah

18:30Guest 1... The, originally the film was gonna come out, the Transformers movie was gonna come out in June of 22, right? It came out June 23rd.

18:39Guest 3Yeah.

18:39Jawad MirYeah.

18:40Guest 1Yeah, and yeah, so I was on to, you know, then, and then it went, they p… it was an unmakeable schedule, based on th… you know, this, getting the story right, getting the visual effects done. So they pushed it a year because those movies always come out basically the same time, same part of the time of the year. So they pushed a year, so I c… I was obligated to do another film, so I had to, I had to leave, and that's when Joel came on.

19:06Guest 3That, but you said…

19:07Jawad MirWas this…

19:07Guest 3... You said that we never worked together, but we kinda did because when I, after I came on, I was in constant contact with Billy, and I would... You know, he knew the history of everything, and he knew, you know, he had done the orig… the first cut, so then I would ask him, you know, about other cuts that he did, and I'd ask him about what the director thought of certain things. So we were, we were not physically sitting in the same room editing together, but we were, collaborating even after he was off the movie.

19:38Jawad MirWhen you say collaborating, it wasn't like he had Avid on his system and you did and you were collaborating over that? Or was it just more like from a story standpoint?

19:46Guest 3Or like a form of, you know, I would call him, and he knew the scenes… ... And I would say, you know, I would ask him, things like, you know, for example, let me think of one. The scene when, Mirage is in the warehouse, and he's talking to…

20:04Jawad MirRight

20:04Guest 3... To, Noah for the first time. I would just say, "What's the history of this? I mean, where, you know, this is how you've left it. Is there a reason why, you know, Optimus comes in at this time, or is there a reason why, you know, things happen in a certain way?" And he just, he knew it because he had been working with it, and he cut it, and I just came on. So that type of thing, and then we would talk about the story, and then I think you saw a couple cuts too, Billy, while we were, you know, afterwards, and…

20:32Guest 1Along the way, yeah.

20:32Guest 3You know what? That's, I mean…

20:33Guest 1It wasn't a lot

20:34Guest 3... Joel and I have worked together on what? How many? Two or three of the Transpor… other ones?

20:40Guest 1Just t…

20:40Guest 3Two

20:40Guest 1... No, just Transformers 3. That's the only other one.

20:43Guest 3Just three?

20:44Guest 1No, yeah.

20:44Guest 3Oh, wow. And you know, so we were, and we've been friends since then, and so it was very comfortable, you know? And ... Like the car, like Noah chasing around in the port in Mirage when he first meets Mirage, you know, there were... You, Joel would call you, "Why was this taken out? Why was this, you know, why is it this way? Why was it rest..." You know, so it was able to sort of, it's, it gave him, you know, a lot of backstory so he knew why things were the way they were, and then at the same time, he was able to have a fresh point of view on the film. So to the film's credit, he was able to, like, ma… there were some jokes and things and funny moments that for some reason Steven was shying away from but then went back in the film because Joel had a fresh look at it and, you know, was able to restore some of that comedy that, you know, because you sort of get, you know, when you're doing it and you sit in front of the Avid, sometimes you get tunnel vision.

21:39Guest 3And you sort of go with the flow, and then Joel was able to come in and have a totally fresh point of view, and I think it really, it really for the, made the film way better than it would've been.

21:50Jawad MirRight. And working with Steven for both of you know, he's worked on Creed, I think Creed, the second one or the third one? I'm not, I think the second one.

21:58Guest 1I think it's the second one.

21:59Jawad MirYeah.

22:00Guest 3Yeah, Creed 2.

22:01Jawad MirWhat, I mean, both of you have worked with different directors like, you know, Michael Bay, Ben Affleck, and then working with Steven Caple, on this film, how was that different working with him? Because he has his own vision, right? Every director comes with a different, bag of tricks.

22:21Guest 3Yeah, he wanted to do his own take on Transformers, and he, you know, in terms of robots and visual effects and humans fighting, you know, alongside of robots, and he had a learning curve. There was a learning curve for him to kind of catch up, and, I think he did pretty good. But he did, he was always pushing for his own, you know, he, the robots have a little bit different design. I don't know if you've noticed…

22:51Jawad MirYeah. Yep

22:51Guest 3... From the other two mov…

22:53Jawad MirYep

22:53Guest 3... Movies. And he was pushing for different music. He was pushing for more kind of, the casting is completely different than Michael Bay would do. Michael Bay would have some, you know, you know, half-naked girls in it or whatever. But anyway, no, I'm kidding. But anyway

23:13Guest 1Not really.

23:15Guest 3Not really. But he, that was the one thing he brought to it. He brought, he did, he did bring his own... He kind of, he wanted his own take on it, and you know, and he wasn't that experienced with visual, big visual effects movies, and I really, I hand it to him. He really was, you know, pushing and pushing to make it, you know, kinda his movie, not a Michael Bay lookalike movie, you know? So, and I think he did, and I think it does look... It's not, it doesn't, doesn't look like one of the Michael Bay, directed movies. It looks completely different, and it feels different, too.

23:50Jawad MirYeah. No, I…

23:51Guest 1Yeah

23:51Jawad Mir... Go on. Please, go.

23:52Guest 1I was gonna say, he, you know, he really did instill it with his own personality, and the thing that was always amazing to me, he knew the Transformers lore like backwards and forwards. I mean, he knew, he would refer to stuff, and I've done, w… this was the fourth one I've done. A… and he knew the stuff about Transformers that I never had any inkling of. I mean, he just, he really, he really had did the homework and was able to draw on, you know, the history of it, you know, the lore, all the comics and all the cartoons and the movies. And so it was, so he was able to instill his own take on it but stay true to the series, you know, stay true to this, all the different versions of the series. So it was, I think it was a really good combination and, so he's leave, able to leave his stamp on it, but still at the same time it was true to the history of the f… of the franchises.

24:46Jawad MirRight, and, a… and I so much agree with that his voice is in the film. I mean, I don't know anything about his, you know, background in terms of what he went through as a individual, but you could see... The amount of time the film takes to set up is a very rare thing to see nowadays. And I really appreciated that, and you could see there is his own life elements in there, somehow hidden in there, and you can pick on them. And I really f… felt that and sp… even the robot design, I noticed that with Optimus Prime. It just felt, like, very retro. At least some of the shots that, you know, and a… again, I mean, you guys men… said it already, but, I was just so glad that it wasn't trying to mimic Michael Bay, otherwise they would've just crashed a… and failed miserably…

25:33Jawad Mir... Because he just stuck with his own voice.

25:36Guest 1Yeah, I mean…

25:36Guest 2I think, I think also the c… the comedy too. He, it does have a, it does have a different type of comedy. I mean, I know the movies, the movies that I did, two and three was all Shia and it was all kind of this kind of almost, I don't wanna say slapsticky, but kind of a little bit more broad comedy. And I think the comedy that we brought into, Rise of the Beasts is more character-driven. Like Pete Davidson really brought Mirage to life, you know? And he's really funny. And we, you know, so I, that is something that Steven brought to it that i… that is separated from a Michael Bay Transformers movie, for sure.

26:15Jawad MirAnd I think in terms of comedy, aside from the word slapstick, I find that with Michael Bay films, especially the Transformer ones, I absolutely admire his work, but in terms of comedy, sometimes it becomes to a point where you can't watch it with family. And with this one…... I, with this one, you, I could. Like, I could sit with my kids and watch it, and there wasn't anything like that. Which I, again, it goes back to the way the films used to be in the '80s and the '90s in terms of comedy and humor.

26:42Guest 2Well, did you see Pain and Gain with your family?

26:45Jawad MirNo. That I did not. That I did not.

26:49Guest 2That one, yes.

26:51Jawad MirI don't think I've, my kids have seen any Michael Bay films aside from the first Transformers. That's what, that was it.

26:56Guest 2Yeah.

26:57Jawad MirThat's it. They really wanna see The Rock and The Crimson Tide, but I'm like, "Not yet." "Not yet." but…

27:03Guest 2Yeah

27:04Jawad Mir... Go on. Sorry, Billy.

27:06Guest 2I was gonna say, how old are they?

27:08Jawad MirThey're 13 and 11, but

27:10Guest 2Oh

27:10Jawad Mir... I mean, I actually…

27:10Guest 2They're good.

27:11Jawad MirYeah, I think I show, I showed them Saving Private Ryan, which I thought was a very, you know, from a historical standpoint, and I'd warned them, like, it's gonna be very gutty and violent, not because it's…

27:23Guest 2Right

27:23Jawad Mir... Gutty and violent, but because there's emotional attached to it. So they were able to sit through it, and they were able to watch it, and watch it. But, you know, g… g… going forward, I mean, you guys have worked on Air recently, and Cocaine Bear, and what sort of plans do you guys have ahead, in terms of what's coming up? Are you working on something that you can talk about or, right now is it a little off time?

27:47Guest 2I've been, I've been picketing. I'm k… I'm kidding. I haven't…

27:51Jawad MirI know you're not.

27:53Guest 2I'm not pi… I'm working on something now. I don't know if I could... I guess it's okay. I'm, I'm helping out a little bit on the Transformers animated feature, so just helping out a little bit on that, which is in progress now. It's like a, they've been, they've been working on it for the last two years. But, yeah, it's, there's not a whole lot happening. I've got a couple projects…

28:14Jawad MirYeah

28:14Guest 2... That were supposed to start in October, and everything's been pushed to January now.

28:19Guest 1Yeah.

28:20Guest 2Because of the strike.

28:21Guest 1I actually was in, I was, 12 days into m… I was directing my first feature.

28:28Jawad MirAh.

28:29Guest 1And I was 12 days into a 31-day schedule, and we got shut down by picketers, so that's on hold. And, you know, this is, Ben Affleck's new company, Artist Equity, who also did Air as their first movie.

28:41Jawad MirYeah.

28:41Guest 1We were supposed to be the second movie, but now we won't be. But, so we're on hold with that until the strike's over, and meanwhile, I've been recutting a documentary that the company's doing about the making... Jennifer Lopez has a new album coming out, and, she made a long form, an hour-long-form video, based on each of the songs just sort of strung together with, some dialogue scenes. And it's these gigantic visual effects, and it's actually really good. And they did a behind-the-scenes, a documentary about the making of that video, which sort of also tells sort of the history of Ben and Jennifer's relationship a little bit. And it's actually shockingly really good and, really fun and kind of emotional. So I've been recutting that for the last kind of s… five, six weeks, and which s… ha… just happy to be... It's actually been the first documentary I've ever worked on as an editor, and I've consulted on a couple but never really cut on any, so it's been really a learning experience and, you know, just happy to have a job because so few people…

29:53Jawad MirYeah

29:53Guest 1... Are working right now, and I'm just thrilled to be working. And, you know, working for Ben is always fun. You know, we've known each other for 17 years at this point, so it's pretty comfortable and we always try and make it fun.

30:05Jawad MirI was gonna ask you, because direct... Not directing, sorry, editing feature documentaries is a completely different beast. I mean, that's, that... I direct documentaries, feature documentaries, but I've co-edited two of my own, and it's a completely different beast. Going from that narrative world to the documentary world, how, despite the fact that you served as a consultant, how challenging was that?

30:30Guest 1The beginning, it was kinda scary. Luckily they kept a couple of the editors on that had been on the film who have way more experience than me. But you know, at a certain point, it is really figuring out what... You're, you're kind of writing, as you know…

30:45Jawad MirThe sto… exactly

30:46Guest 1... And writing the film as well as editing it, and, You know, once we sort of, sort of figured out what the story wanted to be, because I think the original cut was just really off-base, it was very repe… r… repetitive and sort of dry and not very fun and not really very interesting, and there was f… there was 450 hours of material, and a lot of that material was on mine, so we found a lot of really wonderful stuff, and you know, figured out what the story wanted to, wanted to be and then figured out the structure, and then we've gone in and, you know, really tuned up each scene. And I've had so much experience cutting sort of a lot of verite footage because of working with Paul Greengrass and Kathryn Bigelow.

31:30Guest 1And actually, m… my film too is shot that way. It's c… the editing of it was, that part of it was actually n… a little easier for me 'cause I have so much experience cutting with, you know, sort of unconventional footage and unconventional camera work, so that was actually, came sort of second nature. But the, just the overwhelming amount of ways you can go…

31:53Guest 1... There's no script, so you know, you can go down these rabbit holes. You find, this, you f… find all this footage that like, "Oh my God, look at this little storyline," and we can, you go down these long rabbit holes, and sometimes it's worth putting in the film and sometimes it's not. So it's really been... It really is overwhelming in a way, but luckily for me, I have a really good team with me, and they, and so it's made it a little more comfortable because they're more experienced than me. But, I really enjoy it, actually. It's, now that I've been in it for like six weeks, I really am having fun. At the, at the beginning it was just, I, it was really frightening, actually.

32:30Jawad MirYeah.

32:30Guest 1But now I feel like I've, I'm, you know, got, I sort of got thrown into the deep end of the pool because it was like, "We need a cut in four weeks, and you've never cut a documentary. Okay, go." You know? So but now I feel pretty comfortable, and it's, it's, I'm having a great time.

32:47Jawad MirYeah, it's, it's funny you mention that, the rabbit hole and the different ways of tackling a story and, you know, it's, it's challenging and it's hard, but at the same time, I was telling this to somebody, one of the things I love about what I... Well, you know, storytelling, documentary directing, is that I don't, I, it scares the hell out of me, how am I gonna do this? But it also excites the hell out of me that I'm gonna do this. And it's a very tough, it's a tough situation and you have to figure out and navigate how to get there. And this poster right behind, Citizen Amory, one of the films that I did, my last, the first two thirds of the film took two years to shoot and edit, and the last act took two and a half years because the story kept shifting.

33:32Guest 1Right.

33:32Jawad MirIt just kept going back and forth, so I completely empathize with that. Joel, you mentioned Transformers feature film, the animation one. Is it something similar to what Spider-Verse or Ninja Turtles in terms of animation is, or is that something you can't discuss?

33:49Guest 1Yeah.

33:49Jawad MirIs it?

33:49Guest 1Yeah, it's fully animated, Transformers movie, yeah.

33:51Jawad MirBut is it similar type of a comic kind of a feel that, are you aware of that, or you're not allowed to talk about that? I'm just kind of curious.

33:56Guest 1I don't know if I don't know. I signed, I signed an N… NDA, so I don't know…

34:00Jawad MirOkay

34:00Guest 1... How much I can talk. Sorry.

34:02Jawad MirGot it. No, that's okay. I'm just, I just love the new form of animation that Spider-Verse has sort of initiated and…

34:09Guest 1Yeah. Spider-Verse is, yeah, the, I've, I've done work with Phil Lord and Chris Miller. We did, we did, 21 Jump Street together, a… and then I did, a TV series called The Afterparty, and then they als… they produced Cocaine Bear. So, they are, they're very, you know, talented and they have, their, vision is really, it's great. They have a great, visionary, sense, you know? And, yes, they asked me to work on Spider-Verse. I d… I, was, I couldn't do it, I was doing something else, but that would've been fun too, to do that.

34:49Jawad MirYeah. Billy, you said you're directing your first feature. Are you allowed to talk about it, what it is about? What's the premise?

34:56Guest 1Yeah, sure. It's a film called Unstoppable. It's based on, this guy named Anthony Robles, who was a college wrestler. He wrestled for Arizona State and won the national championship in 2011, and he was born missing his right leg. So he competed against able-bodied people and... But, you know, the story's more about his overcoming an incredibly difficult life. You know, abusive stepfather, you know, growing up in poverty, having to turn down the only scholarship he got offered to wrestle because he was, and he won the high school national championship and only got one scholarship offer because of his, having the one leg. And he had to turn that down and work three jobs to stay at ASU to protect his mother and, you know, s… so it's the story of him overcoming all these challenges and ending up being a champion. And Anthony is quite an extraordinary per… he's only 34 years old, and he's, so he's

35:54Jawad MirWow

35:54Guest 1... He's quite an extraordinary guy, and he's a motivational speaker now, and he's, works for ESPN doing commentary for wrestling, and also is a Nike athlete. And you know, so, and we had a really wonderful cast with Jennifer Lopez playing Anthony's mother and Jharrel Jerome playing Anthony and, Bobby Cannavale and Don Cheadle and Michael Peña. So we have a…

36:20Jawad MirOh, wow.

36:21Guest 1Yeah, so we have a really terrific cast, and the film looks great so far. And so it was so devastating to have it…

36:26Jawad MirYeah

36:26Guest 1... You know, stop, and it's just... I mean, for a first time director, I think it's probably not a great i… you know, it's like to have months between the first third of it and the second two thirds. I, we'll find out. I mean, we'll find out what that, what that brings to the film, but, luckily everybody's on board to keep going. You know, my, I have a f… wonderful crew and I'm ho… you know, hoping, like I think I'm gonna get them all back. And but it's been a really fun experience and… and it's been super difficult, but at the same time really rewarding and exciting, you know?

37:06Jawad MirYeah.

37:07Guest 1Be able to, be on that side of it, you know? I've worked with so many unbelievably talented directors, I just, you know, try and steal everything I can from every one of them.

37:16Jawad MirOf course.

37:16Guest 1You know, I've had long talks with Michael Bay, long talks with Paul Greengrass, long talks with Ben Affleck, long talks with Michael Mann, you know, asking a million questions, and hopefully some of that comes up on the screen, you know? But

37:30Jawad MirYeah. I w… I was gonna ask you how did you come to learn about the story, but I'm guessing is there a Nike connection because of Air?

37:36Guest 1No, actually it's completely coincidental. The... I was, you know, after I did Argo, a bunch of people came to me and they asked me if I was interest… interested in directing, and I was. And then the f… a m… a friend of mine who's also a producer produced, Gone Baby Gone and this movie Concussion that I did. He heard that I was looking for s… He brought me the story, and they had a screenplay, but it wasn't very good, so he brought a new screen… screenwriter in and rewrote the script, and that was like five years ago. It took a long time to…

38:08Jawad MirRight

38:09Guest 1... To get it going. And then, I gave it to Ben when they started Artist Equity and asked if he would read it. I said, "I don't... I'm not asking you to make it, I just wanna know your opinion." And, he loved it and, Matt Damon loved it, and everybody at the company loved it, so they decided to make it and Ben did a rewrite of the script and, which was obviously terrific. And, it was a very strange experience giving him notes, which was, you know, he did a draft of the screenplay and I had to give him notes, and he's doing the fil… all this time I've been doing it…... And now he's doing mine. It was a very weird experience.

38:47Jawad MirRight

38:47Guest 1... He's been a great partner. He and Matt have been amazing, you know, really supportive and, you know, I got that cast because of them, I mean, not because of me. I mean, it's a really great script and a great story, but, you know, I'm a first-time director and I wouldn't have gotten those actors without Hi… without those guys. So

39:04Jawad MirSure

39:04Guest 1... You know, certainly wouldn't have gotten Jennifer. And that's, you know, I mean, Jharrel Jerome is, who plays the lead, like I said, is ama… an amazing actor and, but Jennifer is a superstar, you know? So Amazon bought the movie and, they're, they're, they've been really terrific as well, I mean, really good partners and, you know, have done... They did Air as well, so they, you know, knew Ben and knew the company and felt pretty solid about it. So it's been, it's been great so far.

39:32Jawad MirExcellent. Joel, one of the things that I'm always curious about, and, this is a question for both of you, but we'll start with Joel, is that is there a specific film that you said no to because of your conflicting schedule that you wish you had worked on? Not necessarily a regret, but just one of those things that you wish you were part of that film, whether it was successful or not.

39:55Guest 2Oh, That's a really good question. Well, I did say no to Transformers One, but I don't know if I... I mean, I... Yeah.

40:08Jawad MirMaybe we can, maybe we can go to Billy while you think about it.

40:13Guest 1Well, there was... I got sent a script for Chicago, and I f… I think it was, I think it was an offer, but I'm not 100% sure it was an offer, because I was r… halfway through the script, Gary Ross, who directed S… Pleasantville and Seabiscuit, it was after Pleasantville, before Seabiscuit. Gary Ross had a film that he was gonna do, an adaptation of a Noel Coward play and I'm, I'm, I'm blanking on the name of it, actually. And I, so I turned the Chicago down to do that film and then the film never got made. So that was disappointing. Again, you know, I... There have been film like I wasn't, I was... I wanted to do The Town with Ben, and he wanted me to do it, and then I got caught in a weird thing with my schedule and I ended up having to do a different movie, and I couldn't do The Town, and, you know, so that I really regretted not being able to do that. But at the same time, it also worked out.

41:14Guest 1Like, you know, I used to get really bent out of shape and freaked out about stuff like that, but now I feel like, you know, it... A long car… your career's a long time, and things happen for a reason, and like

41:26Jawad MirYeah

41:26Guest 1... You know?

41:27Jawad MirYeah.

41:27Guest 1So it doesn't... You know, I miss things along the way, but n… it doesn't bother me anymore. I'm just happy to have what I have, you know? And…

41:36Guest 2Yeah, I agree with that too, 'cause there is cer… there are certain things that I've, I've missed because... Or certain things that I've wanted to do and I couldn't do and, you know, like I was supposed to do, the Star Wars movie that Phil and Chris directed…

41:52Jawad MirYeah

41:52Guest 2... And they ended up getting fired on that movie or quitting, and so it all worked out for me, you know? I mean, all worked out for the best really. But, yeah. I mean, I would say if there's a movie that goes away or a movie that I can't do, there's always something else coming…

42:09Jawad MirYeah

42:09Guest 2... And something else that's better or more fun and, you know, I'm happier to be on.

42:15Jawad MirI think, I think the key thing is that both of you sorta said, is sometimes losing something helps you gain something down the road, whether it comes in the form of another project or time with family or anything else. Could be health. And it's, it's…

42:29Jawad Mir... Tough for sure. And i… I sorta wanted to sort of wrap up with cou… one more or two more questions, with both of you guys, is that what... Currently I know you guys, edit on Avid, which is the industry software, and I've done editing on the old Final Cut, Premiere, Avid, and DaVinci Resolve. And now Avid has been sold to I think another company, and it's still obviously gonna be around, but do you feel as an editor ever, with the rise of… Not necessarily in Hollywood as much, DaVinci Resolve, do you feel there might be some sort of a shift over or split in some capacity, from an editor's standpoint? Or would you like that, to see that or you're happy where your world is right now?

43:21Guest 2I think there will be for sure. I think there will be for sure. The most m… a lot of people are still using the 2019 software, the Avid software because they…

43:31Jawad MirYeah

43:31Guest 2... Liked it better. Avid came out with a whole new... They…

43:34Jawad MirYeah

43:34Guest 2... Redesigned their whole, platform, and a lot of people aren't happy with it. And they pretty much haven't really done much in the last 20 years really, have it? N-noth… there hasn't been any breakthroughs or any new design in their software that makes things much different. It's kind of been the same software for as long as I've been using it, pretty much. I mean, they've fixed things and they've fixed bugs and they've, they've made tiny improvements, but there hasn't been like a, you know, like a big, you know, epiphany or some… you know, something that completely changed the way that, people edit on

44:18Guest 2... Digitally. I don't know if Resolve does that, but I think that's, that's something that we need right now, and I think that's gonna happen. I think, you know, more and more people are shying away from Avid. And what happened when people switched over from film…

44:36Jawad MirYeah

44:36Guest 2... To digital, it started out with commercials. It started out with, you know, music videos and smaller things, and then it, and then it moved into television, and then it moved into features. And I think that's kinda what's happening right now with the DaVinci Resolve and with also Premiere. P… people... And also a lot of the film schools use Premiere. They don't use Avid. And you know, they're not,.. You know, if you talk to a film student, they'll say, "Oh yeah, I know Premiere but I don't know Avid." So I think it's gonna happen. I don't know when, but I think, you know, a couple of big movies, if they start cutting on a different platform, then it'll just start... You know, it'll, it'll take over. That, at least that's my opinion.

45:22Jawad MirYeah.

45:23Guest 1You know, it was funny, when I did, I did Air, m… Ben wanted me to cut it on DaVinci Resolve. And I met with, I met with them and I met with an ed… I talked to Pamela Martin who had cut, w… had helped out on a movie that was cut on Resolve. And they both... Or they didn't, the people at Resolve didn't seem... You could just tell it wasn't ready for a feature, and then by a confirmed by Pam Martin and her assistant that, you know, there's a lot w… it'll, it'll be there one day, but right now I don't know what your experience was. But, you know, the... And the editing itself and how you m… friend of mine is Brett Reed actually, who is cutting my movie, has been sort of experimenting with it. And it's, i… it isn't quite there for feature film editing. And in terms of having multiple editors and assistants on the same storage and speaking to the sound editors and speaking to the, you know, the interface interfacing with the sound editors and the music editors and the finishing houses, it's really not there.

46:28Guest 1But, you know, the whole idea of being able to do, like, visual effects and color timing and everything all in the same thing I think is amazing. And plus, you know, you can cut a really high resolution. You can flick back and forth between resolutions. So I think that whole idea is really appealing and will, and I ho… I hope it happens faster because it's, you know, it's still not ready. I mean, we're, we, my m… this guy Brett who I've mentioned before is, he's experimenting with it now, and that's, you know, about a year and a half after we've done Air, and it's still not improved enough

47:02Jawad MirYeah

47:03Guest 1... To, for it to really be for... It just creates, it solves a lot of problems, but it creates even more. But it…

47:11Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

47:12Guest 1But to what you were saying…

47:13Jawad MirYeah

47:13Guest 1... Avid is just like, it, they, it's getting worse not better. But they just, actually the two… 2023, upgrade, they just came out with y… your, they have something now called Avid Classic.

47:27Guest 2I know, I heard about that.

47:28Guest 1Have the same interface you had on the old version, which is…

47:31Guest 2Yeah

47:32Guest 1... Because I've had to go in my Avid that I'm working on now and, like, set it up as close as I could to the old way because I don't f… find the improvements. They go sideways. They don't go forward, you know? It's, it's…

47:45Guest 2And have you tried the title tool?

47:47Guest 1What's that?

47:48Guest 2Have you tried the title, have you tried the title tool? It…

47:50Guest 1No

47:50Guest 2... It's just, it's a joke.

47:52Guest 1Yeah, no, I, we had, the guy…

47:54Guest 2Heard about it

47:55Guest 1... Matt Figare from Avid in the, in the cutting room last week, and everybody in the cutting room, all the editors, every, all the assistants, Ben, were hammering him about the titles tool, like, because it, they took something that worked fine and ruined it.

48:09Guest 2Yeah. Exactly.

48:11Jawad MirI think that's what happened with, I remember with Final Cut, back in 2010 when they announced the new one. Everybody was so excited. I remember I was even there for the launch, and then it just kinda, like people switched to Premiere, including myself. And now Premiere, like the entire Adobe Suite, not for studio that's not really expensive. You know, paying 70 bucks a month, for, whatever it is, 60 or 70 bucks a month. As opposed to DaVinci, I think it's like 299, that's it. Like one time fee. I think that's one of the reasons that people at the, you know, base or medium level are switching to that more so from cost standpoint. But also I find Premiere, I edited two of my features, or co-edited my two of my features on Premiere and it crashed all the times. And, now DaVinci, I'm, working on my next feature and it hasn't given me any issues. I wanted to do it on m… Avid, but it's just… I just find DaVinci's interface is a little bit more convenient for my liking as opposed to Avid.

49:16Jawad MirBut yeah, we'll see. I do think DaVinci has come a long way in the last, you know, 10 years or even five years.

49:22Guest 1Yeah, sure.

49:22Jawad MirSo it'll be interesting.

49:24Guest 1I hope it... I'd love to be able to do all that in the same thing and, you know, i… in the same machine and it would be, i… you know, it would just make our jobs easier and we'd have more control over what the product looks like, you know? Like, be able to tweak the color timing in a way. The Avid color timing thing is just, you know, not great and, you know, so it's... Like, the film I'm working on now is obviously, it's a d… like I say, a documentary and a lot of the stuff's, like, you know, some of it's shot with a commercial camera, so it's like, you know, the... They aim towards a window and the density changes all over the place.

50:00Jawad MirYeah.

50:01Guest 1So it's like... And it's, you can't really fix it because you can't defeat the color timing that's already on there. You know, so it just... It would be nice to have control over stuff that I feel like I should've had control over, you know, 10 years ago, but, hopefully they get there soon.

50:19Jawad MirRight.

50:20Guest 2Yeah, I would like, I would like to say, though, I was around, I'm sure, Bill, you definitely were around when, everything switched over from film to Avid, and it went, you know, switched over from film to digital and the technology at the time w… was growing. It was in its infancy, and it was getting better and changing. And for me, I don't know about for you, because I was an assistant, so it was just super exciting. It was really exciting 'cause it was all new. I was all... I was learning. You know, I was learning about, different technical aspects of, you know, computer, editing and also bringing... 'Cause I knew video editing and I knew film editing, so you bring... I brought those both together to do digital editing, and it was an exciting time. There was a lot happening. There was, you know, movies that were... You know, there was a lot of problems and a lot of issues and you would, you would have to get little patches, you know, for your computer to make d… for your, software to make things work.

51:20Guest 2And

51:20Jawad MirRight

51:21Guest 2... But, you know, things were changing and people were learning, and people were using this new technology. And then a feature would use it, and then a bigger feature would use it, and then there was competing, systems. There was the Lightworks and the Avid and the Montage, and I, for me, that was an exciting time because there was... It was just, it was, technology changing, you know, breaking the system, changing the system, disrupting the system. Technology was doing that, the old film editing system. And, I know it was hard and it took a while but, you know, it's working. It got to work. And I wouldn't mind something again like that, you know, something that just changes the way things are done and makes it better and makes it easier and makes it more exciting. 'Cause a… at the time it was, it was fun to be, you know, be around…

52:11Jawad MirSure

52:11Guest 2... During that time. Yeah.

52:14Jawad MirThat makes sense.

52:14Guest 1Yeah, I remember, you know, I cut, like, two films I think on film, and then everything cha… started changing over to digital and I remember saying, "Nah, I'm gonna stay on film. I can do it just fine on film. I don't wanna do the digital." I was scared of it. I was scared just editing in general, let alone having to learn a new thing and then once, when I started u… using it was clear every… everything was, you know, gonna change. And when I started using it, I was like, oh, it was, like Joel said, it was, it was so…

52:40Jawad MirYeah

52:40Guest 1... Groundbreaking. It was just so fun to be able to do things and make a million copies and try a million versions and, you know, ma… see the disso… see, you know, basic, you know, dissolves and fades even, you know…

52:53Jawad MirRight

52:53Guest 1... In real time and not have to send it out, you know, and send the film out and get a optical made and, you know, all that stuff went away. And it was... And being able to do the sound work and add m… and, you know, so much more sound work and music work, it made it much... It made it really fun, you know, a lot more fun and less tedious than before. So, it didn't take long to fall in love with it, you know? But like when…

53:17Jawad MirYeah

53:17Guest 1... We did Heat on the Lightworks… And it was, you know, it was too much film for the machine, you know? We did it, but it was, well, it was a nightmare. I mean, we just had so many problems and it was just so... You know, the assistants didn't organize it well, and crashing, and, you know, we... One editor couldn't work for, like, three weeks until we finally figured out it was 'cause he had a halogen lamp plugged into the same outlet that the A…... That Lightworks. It was some crazy thing. Like, it was drawing too much power. It was like... I mean, all the little things you're just trying to run around and chase and figure out. It was, you know, it was, you know, like, all... Like, a lot of technology, so it wasn't quite ready, but you're using it anyway, and then, you know, so you have to sort of figure out all the workarounds and, you know, so it was a lot of fun, and frustrating at times, but it was also fun and it made... When we, like I said, on Heat, we were cutting on the Lightworks, and at one point Michael Mann said, "You know, I'm sick of this computer and let's just... Let's go back and work on film for a minute," 'cause we had all the film printed.

54:21Guest 1"And, let's work on film and, like, we'll do that for a while." And we worked on film literally for, like, four hours one day, and he was like, "Okay, let's go back to the... Let's go back to the Lightworks." He said, "I can't. It's too slow." You know, so.

54:35Guest 2Yeah, when I was on, when I was, when I was on True Lies, we had three editors. The systems wouldn't talk to each other. We had the RMAGs only hold, it held, what, 500 megabytes? So we had 74 RMAGs that had all on these shelves, you know, and, we could only play about 20 minutes at a time I think, or maybe less than that. And, so I was, I was in charge of all the Avids. I was, you know, I was kinda helping all the editors. And, every time Jim Cameron would come in you'd have to shut the entire system down and, to put in a new sequence. So every time you had to switch the, switch the RMAGs you had to shut the h… the system down, and then it took... It felt like it took…

55:17Guest 3Forever for it to start, to boot back up while Jim's sitting there, you know, waiting

55:22Jawad MirYeah

55:23Guest 3You're always just waiting for him to just get mad and get frustrated because it's slow, and he never really did. He got mad ab… about other things and frustrated about other things, but he was always really patient with the technology. But it was…

55:35Jawad MirYeah

55:35Guest 3... It was scary. It was scary being the guy that, you know, if something goes wrong, they all look at me, so.

55:42Jawad MirIt's, it's funny you guys both mention about the technology evolving at the time, and I think we're at that same spot now with AI, right? Which is what all this picketing, strike is about. And I've seen... I don't know if you guys have seen this. I saw this on Instagram somewhere. There's a plugin apparently, I haven't seen the results being that great, but the fact that it's in the early stages, where it will recognize three camera shot on a timeline, and it would play it back automatically and it will start cutting it by itself. Now, that to me was scary as hell, but at the same time was very fascinating, and I wonder how that will play into the world of post-production, i… if it does in a very deep way. Yeah. I mean, I'm scared about that too.

56:32Guest 3I'm scared there's gonna be, you know, s… software where they say, "Just cut the film from the point of view of this character." Boom, you know, in 20 minutes it's got it done. I don't know what... You know, that's... I hadn't heard about what you said. I don't know what the state of that is, and I... It is, it is scary, but I don't think... You know, I don't... I'm not that worried about it now because I don't think... First of all, I don't think the technology's quite there to…

56:58Jawad MirYeah

56:58Guest 3... To really cut. Strangely enough, I was talking to a friend of mine who's an agent at CAA who's, you know, trying to get, trying to do what he can to try and get this strike settled. He said the a… the writers aren't worried about AI as much as the public, as m… as much as the, media says. They're... You know, they wanna have it, you know, a human must write it, you know, is…

57:21Guest 3... In their, in the contract. But they're not, they're more worried about, like, the nuts and bolts, you know, the kitchen table stuff, you know. They're much more worried about the residuals and being able to feed their families and, you know, and that kind of thing. They're not as freaked out about the AI as, according to him, freaked out about the AI as the media's making it.

57:42Jawad MirInteresting.

57:42Guest 3It's not what their nego… stick, sticking points are.

57:46Jawad MirBecause I've seen a lot of interviews with the actors especially, not the writers, where they specifically talk about AI.

57:52Guest 3The actors are terrified.

57:52Jawad MirYeah, actors. I think actors are more te… I was just watching a video of Sean Austin. He was saying the exact same thing, that, you know, it's, it's, it's possible. I mean, I even think, like you're right about editors and post-production or even cinematography being not at that stage yet. But if things are moving fast as they are, I think we're probably within the 10 years of realm where that might start to happen.

58:18Guest 3It's like, as somebody said to me a couple weeks ago, the technology always wins, you know? They... Everybody will have to adapt. I mean, that's just... It's gonna happen. I mean, you can't…

58:30Jawad MirExactly

58:31Guest 3... There's no way to stop it.

58:32Jawad MirExactly.

58:32Guest 3I think, I just, I think of it as, one of those, I don't know which episode, but either a Star Trek episode or a, or a, one of those old, you know, Twilight Zone episodes where there's a computer and the computer's running everything and it's so smart, but it just doesn't have, it doesn't have a spirit. It doesn't have, you know, it doesn't have a soul, and it just can't do it. And then computers will never be able, be able to... They don't have, you know, the... They'll never have a, like, a brain like a human has. You know, they could probably think like a human, but they don't, they don't have the, you know, the soul that a human has so that they can…

59:12Jawad MirThe heart

59:12Guest 3... You know, be creative, the heart and the soul. And, yeah, I think I'm gonna go back and look at some of those old, Star Trek or, Twilight Zone episodes…... 'cause I know there's one that has this exact same story.

59:25Jawad MirOr I think it's Twilight Zone.

59:27Guest 3Was it Twilight Zone?

59:27Jawad MirI think there's... There i… there is an episode, and I don't know if you're talking about TNG. Are you talking about TNG or the Next Generation? The Star Trek?

59:35Guest 3No, I'm talking about the original series.

59:36Jawad MirOh, the original one.

59:37Guest 3Yeah.

59:37Jawad MirOkay. So there is an episode in TNG where there's a character named Berkeley. I don't know if you remember... Berkeley or Berkeley. He used to have a small guest role, in one of the episodes he actually became the computer of the Starship Enterprise, and he controls everything, and it just kind of becomes…

59:54Guest 3Oh, interesting

59:54Jawad Mir... Like the whole A… A… AI approach. And I forget the episode, but there was a whole episode on that. But you know, moving on from AI, I just wanna ask you guys one more question, and I know you have to go. Which director that you haven't worked with that you would love to work with, and why?

1:00:13Guest 3Go ahead, Billy.

1:00:14Jawad MirBilly, I needed a minute.

1:00:15Guest 3Oh, wait. Oh, Billy Goldberg. Okay.

1:00:19Jawad MirRight. Why? That's a good... Yeah, the tone of that why is why? You know, I've been lucky that I've worked with some of the, some of the... Like, I remember, several years ago I was thinking I'd love, God, I'd love to work with Paul Greengrass, and then I did, so I was like, "Oh, well, I got that one. Check that off." I don't know. I mean, I, f… obviously the easy answer is, like, Martin Scorsese.

1:00:46Jawad MirBut, you know, like, I... Like, it would be interesting to work for, like, those guys who did Everything Everywhere All at Once. I mean, you know, like, I don't know them really, but, like, some of the younger directors who are really doing things that are outside the box m… would be really fun to do, you know? But, you know, I w… I really wanted to cut Maestro, you know, Brad… with Bradley Cooper.

1:01:11Jawad MirThat Bradley Cooper directed, only 'cause I... He's really good friends with Ben Affleck, and I met him at Ben's house one time, and I was sh… shocked, but I was so impressed how he's so smart

1:01:26Guest 1Like really intelligent and like, you know, incredible vision, for cinema and I thought, "Wow, that's... You know, I'd love to cut one of his movies." And I unfortunately didn't get to but he seems like he's... You know, I like working with nice people. He's also... I mean, he seems like a nice guy and he seems collaborative. And I, you know, I think that was one I really, you know, I'm a fan of Leonard Bernstein, so I've... Would like to have done that film. But again, like it's not a like…

1:01:57Jawad MirI get it

1:01:57Guest 1... Jealous thing.

1:01:58Jawad MirYeah.

1:01:58Guest 1It's just like that'd been nice, 'cause it seems like a cool project, but... I dunno. What about you, Joel?

1:02:05Guest 2Well, I was just thinking again while you were talking. I think that what you said, just working with nice, creative people, that's huge. That's really big and I'd like to continue doing that. But, if... Cur… current directors, I would say maybe Chris Nolan because, it'd just be interesting to see how he approaches working on, movies. 'Cause he cuts on film, which is interesting, so that would, you know... And, I think I like, I like his... I think he's a good director. I'd like to work with him. Other directors, you know, a… again, it's just, you know, someone who's talented and nice. I'm a huge fan of, classic movie directors, but they're not living anymore so I can't work with them. But, yeah, I'm kinda blank. Nothing real… no one else really comes to mind now.

1:03:03Jawad MirRight.

1:03:03Guest 2But, you know, just, nice, talented people is what I'm interested in.

1:03:11Jawad MirWell, that makes sense. And, you know, on that note, I think one thing I've... I'm sure you guys have seen it, but Bradley Cooper, what was it called? Inside Actor Studio, have you seen that episode where he was a guest before he became an actor? He's a…

1:03:26Guest 1Oh, I saw one where he was…

1:03:28Jawad MirHe o…

1:03:28Guest 1... Asking Robert De Niro questions. Is that the episode?

1:03:30Jawad MirQuestion, yeah. And then how he became one of the guests eventually. I mean, it just goes to show that how if you keep working at it and, you know... And he's a very intelligent guy. I mean, his, what's his film that he directed with that Lady Gaga? I always forget the name…

1:03:43Guest 1A Star Is Born

1:03:43Jawad Mir... Of that fi…

1:03:44Guest 1A Star Is Born. Yeah.

1:03:46Jawad MirYeah, that... Such a simple, but a, what an amazing film and the performance and direction and everything. Yeah, truly a talented guy, for sure. I hope to…

1:03:54Guest 1He is

1:03:55Jawad Mir... I hope that you get to work him in a future film, and I hope, Joel, you get to work with maybe an AI former director…... From the '60s.

1:04:04Guest 1John Ford.

1:04:05Guest 2That'd be amazing.

1:04:07Guest 1John Ford.

1:04:09Jawad MirThere you go.

1:04:10Guest 1That'd be amazing.

1:04:11Jawad MirThere you go. Well, perfect. Thank you so much, guys. Anything you wanna add? I mean, I've, I had a great time chatting with you. I hope, this time was useful for you guys, too, just to talk about…

1:04:20Guest 1It was fun

1:04:20Jawad Mir... What you guys do.

1:04:22Guest 2I got to hear stuff…

1:04:23Jawad MirGreat

1:04:23Guest 2... About Joel I didn't know.

1:04:27Jawad MirWonderful.

1:04:27Guest 1Yeah.

1:04:27Jawad MirI would, I would love to chat with you guys again sometime down the road about other projects, maybe individually. If you guys are interested, I will reach out to your agent and…

1:04:35Guest 1Oh

1:04:35Jawad Mir... We can do that.

1:04:36Guest 1Let us know.

1:04:36Jawad MirBut truly had, truly had a great time. Thank you so much, guys.

1:04:39Guest 1Thank you.

1:04:40Guest 2Yeah. Pleasure.

1:04:41Jawad MirTake care. Bye.

1:04:42Guest 1Bye. See you, Joel.

1:04:43Guest 2It's good to see you, Don.

1:04:45Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.