'House of Sand and Fog', Director, Vadim Perelman

0:08Jawad MirHow are you doing?

0:10Vadim PerelmanVery good.

0:11Jawad MirThat's great. And where, are you in California, or...?

0:15Vadim PerelmanI'm in Vancouver, Canada.

0:17Jawad MirOh, you're from the same country as I am.

0:20Vadim PerelmanOh, you're in Canada? Awesome.

0:21Jawad MirYeah, I'm in, I'm in Toronto.

0:24Vadim PerelmanThere you go.

0:24Jawad MirI absolutely love Vancouver. I love it.

0:27Vadim PerelmanI spent a lot of time in... I went to film school in Toronto.

0:31Jawad MirWhich one?

0:32Vadim PerelmanRyerson.

0:33Jawad MirSo did I.

0:36Vadim PerelmanThere you go.

0:37Jawad MirWhat year were you there?

0:39Vadim PerelmanI w… I didn't even finish. I was there…

0:42Jawad MirNeither did I, so.

0:44Vadim PerelmanThat's good. See, there you go. That's the secret to success. I was there '85 or something like that. S…

0:52Jawad MirOkay. So way…

0:52Vadim Perelman'84, '85

0:53Jawad Mir... Yeah.

0:54Vadim PerelmanMid…'80s, yeah.

0:56Jawad MirWay before, me. I was there from '96 to 2000. First, I took IT management, and then I went back and they had a film certificate, and I did about four or five courses. It was supposed to be 10, and it was just so ridiculously expensive. Like, it was on the verge of, like, digital and film, so we were still using, like, super…

1:17Vadim PerelmanI remember at that point it was, when I went, it was, like, 1,200 bucks a year for the whole program.

1:24Jawad MirOh, no, it was, I still remember specifically for the production…

1:27Vadim PerelmanAnd I think I still owe the Canadian government that money, actually. So it's true. 'Cause I had a student loan…

1:34Jawad MirOh

1:34Vadim Perelman... And I just, I just escaped to LA.

1:38Jawad MirYeah. I think a lot of people,... What was the word? Like, a relief, a student loan relief program, like, you apply for and they

1:47Vadim PerelmanYeah, exactly. Well, I didn't apply for anything. I just took off. It was, it was, I felt, I felt that if they ever, f… you know, forced me to answer for it, I would just say the educational system failed me, so I w… I'm not happy with the results. Therefore, I shouldn't pay for it. Yeah.

2:06Jawad MirNo, that's an... Big thing. When did you go to LA? In the late '80s, or...?

2:11Vadim Perelman'91.

2:11Jawad Mir'91. Is that when you…

2:13Vadim PerelmanActually, at the end of nine… the end of '90. Yeah.

2:17Jawad MirGreat. So while we're talking about that, I mean, my first question was, like, how did you, end up…

2:24Vadim PerelmanEnd up become a famous director?

2:27Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. And how did you get into filmmaking? How did you get into filmmaking? Like, what inspired you?

2:33Vadim PerelmanWell, a… actually, I fell in love... I was never, as a kid, you know how these directors, they grow up and they, you know, they have some influence and they've had a camera in their hand when they were eight years old, and that their uncle bought 'em kind of thing. And, you know, for me, it was never film. I was never into it. I grew up in Ukraine, former Soviet Union.

2:56Vadim PerelmanAnd, I lived there till I was 14, so there was really nothing, there was no f… I didn't, you know, films were just, I don't know, one of the media, one of the backgrounds. Books were my main, my main focus and love. And so then I went to Canada. I actually immigrated to Canada from Ukraine in, '78, I believe.

3:20Jawad MirOkay.

3:20Vadim PerelmanAnd, yeah. And, in the middle of my physics, math, course, in University of Alberta, I took, like, an easy electives, easy elective, which was, like, Film 101, Film His… Film Appreciation, I think it was called. Yeah. And so it worked. I really... But, and w… the first thing they showed us, it was in the middle of the semester, the January semester. The first thing they showed us was this film by Norman Jewison.

4:00Vadim Perelman... It was a making of, Fiddler on the Roof.

4:04Jawad MirRight.

4:04Vadim PerelmanAnd it was, yeah, and it was the very first time that I saw, kind of the process of filmmaking. Be… before then it was just a mystery to me. And I saw this guy, I saw Norman, and since then I've told him this. But, I saw Norman sitting in some trailer in Moravia or something like that in the middle of Europe, and it's snowing, and the chickens are dying, and nothing is, you know, nothing is going right, and he's sitting there smoking cigarette after cigarette and writing, typing away on his typewriter, writing, rewriting the script, I guess. And I just had this flash. I just said, "I wanna be that guy." It was…

4:46Jawad MirRight

4:46Vadim Perelman... It wasn't really like, "I wanna make movies. I wanna be, you know, a filmmaker or an artist." It was like, "I wanna be that guy. I wanna, I wanna be able to create my worlds. I wanna be, I wanna be, like, this little demi-god in these worlds, and be able to, most importantly, to affect people like it affected me at the moment." You know? So that's, that was kind of my revelation, so then I dropped all my physics and math courses immediately. I'm very maximalist that way. And, took a... And I had to wait to take, to take courses for some reason. I can't reme… I couldn't take 'em right a… couldn't join them right away. Like, they already started.

5:33Vadim PerelmanAnd so I went to the library and I spent the whole semester not going to any classes, but just reading film books, and that's, that's all I did, was just read, like, theory and production and it was a great... It was actually a very well-stocked library on that topic. And I learned, kind of self-learned. And then I applied to Ryerson right away. I didn't even come back to University of Alberta. I applied to Ryerson and went there.

6:02Jawad MirNice. When, I know in Ryerson, at least when I was trying to apply, so I was trying to apply to go into film school in that mid…'90s, and they wanted, like, a portfolio and all that stuff. Was it the same thing…

6:14Vadim PerelmanYeah

6:14Jawad Mir... In your time?

6:15Vadim PerelmanThey wanted, they wanted a letter. They wanted some letters of recommendations. I didn't have anybody to write me a letter of recommendation, preferably from industry members, which is, like, I didn't have anybody. They wanted a short film, on whatever you want. Back then…

6:35Jawad MirYeah

6:35Vadim Perelman... There was no real, no real video. I think I did mine on Super 8 film. And it was very funny because I lied to get in, you know? I... The letter I wrote. It was hard to get in. It was like, I remember…

6:52Jawad MirYeah, definitely

6:52Vadim Perelman... It was, quite a, you know, competition for each place. You know, there was, like, three or four people for each place. It was a lot of applicants. And so I decided to do an end run again around all that. So I said my father... It was kind of actually half-truth, 'cause I did lose my father in a car accident when I was nine in Ukraine.

7:13Jawad MirSorry to hear that.

7:15Vadim PerelmanYeah. And, I said that he was a film director even though he wasn't, and, because there was no way of checking Soviet Union film director.

7:23Jawad MirYeah.

7:23Vadim PerelmanYou know, let's say he wasn't a very famous film director and, I just wanna become a film director to continue what he could... You know. And I, you know, dropped a bit of water on the page, seemed like tears. I'm joking, but you know, that kind of thing. And sent it in, and, it worked, so I got in, and I was really happy about that, I remember. But then again…

7:47Jawad MirThat's…

7:47Vadim Perelman... You know, once I, once I started, I spent a year and a half, maybe two, not full two years, but year and a half there, and I just got bored. I said, "You know, I pretty much know everything." It was that half a year in the library that did it, you know?

8:02Jawad MirYeah.

8:02Vadim PerelmanI said, "Well, they're teaching me things that I kind of already know." It seemed kind of, I just wanna go do it already. And, so I left with my buddy, who's a dir… you know, quite a famous director in Canada now. He was, like, my partner in all this, in crime and all that.

8:22Jawad MirWhat's his name?

8:22Vadim PerelmanAnd we sta… His name is Vincenzo Natali.

8:26Jawad MirOkay. I know that name.

8:26Vadim PerelmanHe did a film called, he did a film called Cube. I don't know, you might have heard of it.

8:29Jawad MirOh, I know Cube.

8:31Vadim PerelmanYeah.

8:31Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

8:32Vadim PerelmanSo Vince and I were kind of buddies in film school, and we left together, and we started a production company that did music videos. Struggled. Lived on, we lived on King. No, not King. On, Spadina and... We were in the, in the loft district over there. But back then…

9:00Jawad MirSpadina and Bloor area?

9:01Vadim PerelmanNo. Spadina and, like, Queen, between King…

9:05Jawad MirOkay

9:05Vadim Perelman... Queen and King.

9:05Jawad MirNear U… near UFT and, College subway station and all that stuff.

9:12Vadim PerelmanNo. No.

9:12Jawad MirYeah.

9:12Vadim PerelmanWay south. Way south by, Skydome. It was

9:16Jawad MirOh, Queen. Oh, right. Yes.

9:19Vadim PerelmanYeah. Between Queen and King. What's that street?

9:22Jawad MirSo you were in the Spadina Chinatown.

9:24Vadim PerelmanIt starts with an A. One-way street.

9:27Jawad MirAdelaide. Adelaide.

9:28Vadim PerelmanAdelaide, exactly.

9:29Jawad MirYeah.

9:30Vadim PerelmanSo it's, like, Spadina and Adelaide.

9:31Jawad MirSo you were in that neighborhood.

9:32Vadim PerelmanPretty much, yeah, on the border.

9:33Jawad MirYeah.

9:34Vadim PerelmanYeah, and by Kensington. Yeah.

9:37Jawad MirSo you were doing music videos in LA with your, with your partner, with your friend?

9:42Vadim PerelmanThis was in Toronto. We started doing it in Toronto. And, then we moved to, I... We. I, then I did a John Lennon Yoko Ono thing. I broke up the band, and I left, which greatly hurt his feelings, I think. But, you know, I was like, we were like, "Together forever." And then I met this…

10:03Jawad MirYeah, okay

10:04Vadim Perelman... Met my wife, and we moved to LA. I said, "Well, onwards. Bigger things." So moved to LA and started doing commercials, and then music videos also. Started editing. I was an editor always. But then directing came really fast. And then, you know, it wasn't easy. It all sounds easy now, but it's, it was…

10:25Jawad MirYeah

10:25Vadim Perelman... A real struggle. It was a…

10:26Jawad MirOkay

10:26Vadim Perelman... I remember it as a real struggle. And, no money, you know, the worries, the whole, the whole damnation of fate thing, where it's like, "I'm so good, and I'm so talented. Why isn't anybody giving me a chance?" You know, kind of thing. That whole thing. And so I kinda learned a lot even in that time. And then I became a very successful, commercials director. Like, I really…

10:57Jawad MirYeah

10:57Vadim Perelman... One of the top, one of the top guys in the world. And I was still young. I was still in my 20s. This was the crazy thing, you know? And I was traveling all over the world doing these big commercials. Money was great, I remember at the time. And so no worries. Had a kid and another wife, second wife already. And, I, went through Italy, and I was in an airport. This is a common story. I was in an airport bookstore, and back then I was offered all these movies like The Rock and everything that Michael Bay... We were in the same company. You know, all these same kind of things, 'cause I was, you know, Bay, Fincher, we were all offered the same stuff back then.

11:43Jawad MirYeah.

11:43Vadim PerelmanAnd, Verbinski, Gore, you know, that…

11:46Jawad MirGore Verbinski, yeah.

11:48Vadim PerelmanYeah. We were all at Propaganda. I don't know if you remember this company.

11:52Jawad MirAh.

11:54Vadim PerelmanPropaganda Films.

11:55Jawad MirI did not know that. Okay.

11:56Vadim PerelmanYeah. Yeah, that's where I was at the time. It was, like, the best director roster ever, I think. Like Michel Gondry, Spike Jonze, Fincher, Bay. Verbinski, me, some, I can't remember him, the Brazilian guy. It was, it was, like, the superstars.

12:18Jawad MirTop names.

12:20Vadim PerelmanYeah, superstars of everything, yeah.

12:22Jawad MirYeah

12:22Vadim PerelmanOf,.. And we all wanted to do films, but we were all doing commercials. I think, like, who was the first one that did a film? I think it was David Fincher did California with a K.

12:33Jawad MirDid, didn't he do Aliens 3 first, or was it…

12:35Vadim PerelmanThat…

12:35Jawad Mir... California?

12:36Vadim PerelmanNo, that was... Oh, no, sorry. Greg Gold did California, I think. I'm confused now.

12:41Jawad MirI think David Fincher's first film was Alien 3, but…

12:43Vadim PerelmanWas Alien 3. That's right. That's right. He did that one. Yeah.

12:46Jawad MirAnd then he did Seven.

12:48Vadim PerelmanNo, then it was, then it was The Game? No, that was after.

12:54Jawad MirNo, Seven…

12:54Vadim PerelmanIt was Seven. Seven. Yeah

12:55Jawad Mir... And The Game.

12:56Vadim PerelmanYeah, Seven.

12:56Jawad MirThen after that.

12:57Vadim PerelmanRight.

12:57Jawad MirYeah.

12:58Vadim PerelmanRight. Right. I remember helping him with The Game, the trailers.

13:02Jawad MirYeah. Those were fantastic films, and I have never seen... That's the only Alien movie I haven't seen. I think I'm too afraid to watch it based on what I've heard.

13:10Vadim PerelmanI'm, I'm sure, I'm sure it's formula, and I'm sure… ... They told him, they told him where to put the camera.

13:15Jawad MirBut I think there were… From what I've read, there was a, there was a lot of, studio interference, and I think that pretty much…

13:22Vadim PerelmanExactly

13:22Jawad Mir... After that he became very, like, you know, it has to be…

13:25Vadim PerelmanExactly. Exactly.

13:26Jawad MirAnything David…

13:27Vadim PerelmanAnd this…

13:28Jawad MirBut he is

13:28Vadim Perelman... And the crazy thing is that I didn't bite, you know? I was offered the same stuff, but I didn't bite because I knew there would be studio interference. And this, I'm even more averse to it, I think, than David is, you know, or I just, I just can't stand the…

13:44Jawad MirInterference. Yeah

13:45Vadim Perelman... I know you're doing a podcast about the studio, but I can't stand the fuckers. You know? I…

13:49Jawad MirNo

13:49Vadim Perelman... I don't... Yeah. But, you know…

13:51Jawad MirBut…

13:51Vadim PerelmanI... Fortunately, my experience was pretty good, which we'll get to. But

13:57Jawad MirGreat

13:57Vadim Perelman... But, yeah. But, at that time I knew that if I was gonna do something like that, it would, you know, I'd quit or I'd get fired. I mean, there was no question about it. It would be, like, that way. So I stuck, I did, I stuck it out. Didn't do it. But I kind of instinctually came to the conclusion, and it was absolutely subconsciously, 'cause I didn't think about it wasn't my plan, to actually control the material myself, you know? And I haven't written anything at that time or done, you know…

14:25Jawad MirNo

14:25Vadim Perelman... I haven't even, I haven't even tried to write a script at that time. So what I did was, I just went back to my first love, to my books, you know? And I started looking through the books, and ever since I was little, I guess, that's when I... You know, people say, "When did you become a director?" I say, "When I used to retell my books to pe… to kids in my, in my camp at night while everybody was falling asleep." I was reading a book all day, and then I would retell the story to them with embellishments and with…

14:56Jawad MirI…

14:56Vadim Perelman... You know, wh… whatever…

14:57Jawad MirYeah

14:57Vadim Perelman... Right? You know? And that was my adaptations. That was my directing. It's like a radio play kind of in a way, right? In the dark, I remember. And so that was, that's when I first, I think, I hooked it. Maybe not so much when I saw that documentary, but it was like I loved how they wouldn't fall asleep and they'd just go, "More. Tell us more." so I, so it was just, it was, I was, I had my nose to the ground already, but I, it was lucky. I was in the airport of Rome, that, and I'm constantly reading, that I was, like, spun. I went to this, English rack, book rack in the bookstore in the airport, and I spun the rack, and there's House of Sand and Fog.

15:45Jawad MirOh.

15:47Vadim PerelmanIt's a trade paperback. And I pulled it out, and I go, "Oh, immigrant story. Da." And I'm so, like, so good with books by then, so I could just right away tell if I'm gonna like it or not. It's like I opened it up, by the first page, third, in the middle, I go, "This looks really good." I go, so I bought it and I went on a plane. I was doing a big commercial at the time. I went on a plane to, I believe Indonesia or Singapore or something like that. It was shooting AT&T campaign.

16:14Jawad MirOh.

16:14Vadim PerelmanRead it on the plane, sitting there all in tears. You know, affect, especially on the plane, I think you're emotional. Like, you cry at plane, stupid movies aloud. You know, I was…

16:24Jawad MirWell, you're, you're alone, right?

16:26Vadim PerelmanYeah.

16:26Jawad MirYou're in that own, you're in that lonely world.

16:27Vadim PerelmanYeah, but I think it's also the lack of oxygen or the pressure or something like that. But it works, it works to make you more emotional. So I'm sitting there and, reading the book. Finished it, and I called this guy. I didn't have an agent. I didn't have anybody at the time. I was in commercials. So I called, this guy that I met at a party who was a agent's assistant at, William Morris at the time.

16:54Vadim PerelmanAnd I said, "Hey, listen, can you, listen, do you guys have a way of checking on the rights? Like, you know, how do I'd like to..." And he said, "Yeah, let me check. Then, you know, we have a department for that." And he calls back and he says, this is an assistant to, you know, like an intern type.

17:11Jawad MirYeah.

17:11Vadim PerelmanNo, a paid assistant. I think he was a paid assistant. And, he says, "No way." It's like, "The author won't, won't give it to anybody. He won't sell it to anybody. He won't give it to anybody. Plus it's, it's gonna be an Oprah book, and, you know, and, a lot of people, you know, are interested, but he's very protective of it, and that's a dead end." I said, "You know what? Can you..." This guy is like, he actually came through, this guy. I said, "Can you give me the author's phone number?"

17:43Jawad MirOh.

17:43Vadim PerelmanAnd he s… he said, "Well, I, oh, okay, I'll try," you know? So he found his agent, his literary agent.

17:50Jawad MirYeah.

17:50Vadim PerelmanAnd somehow, I have no idea, but I got this phone number. So from Singapore, I call Andre Dubus. And, I say, "Hey, you don't know me. I just read your book." He's like, "Okay." You know? And he's, he's, you know, I've always been very, well, always, I'm not that way anymore. When I was younger, I was very… Forcefulness.

18:15Jawad MirYeah

18:15Vadim PerelmanYou know, I could get pretty much... People say, "How did you do it?" I say, "Well, I just wanted it." That's it, you know? I... What else? What? So I pushed and pushed, and I, and I said, "Let me tell you my life story," and I told him my life story, which is pretty lustrous in a way. The youth, the criminal years, all that crazy shit I went through.

18:36Jawad MirYeah.

18:37Vadim PerelmanAnd I said... He said, "Well, it's kinda like my life story," he said to me. I go, "Really?" He goes, "Yeah, I wrote a, I wrote a book called Townie about my youth and all that." I go, "I'll pick it up and read it." And it is, after I read it's almost the same kind of delinquent, you know, youth trying to prove yourself, and finally doing it. And so I said, "I want your book." And he said, "Well, I don't know. You haven't done anything before." I go…

19:07Jawad MirYeah

19:07Vadim Perelman... "I know, but I'm... Believe me, I'm the person to do it, you know? I can… I feel it. I really do." And he s… I said, "You're g… You're right not to sell it to those guys. They're just gonna..." And I use this horrible metaphor, said, "They're gonna take your child, handcuff him to the radiator, and rape it all fucking day long," you know? The child that they're supposed to raise respectfully to, you know, to a new level. I said, "I won't do that," you know? "I'll, I'll raise him. I'll teach him what I know and so on." And so s… he just goes, "Okay, let's go for it." And whi…

19:48Jawad MirWow

19:48Vadim Perelman... Which was crazy, 'cause he wouldn't, he wouldn't, he wouldn't to anybody. Weinstein, studios, nobody. You know, he wouldn't. He says, "Let's go for it," and gave this, gave it, gave me the gift of my life, this kid. This kid, this man. And he,.. So we did. I paid him my own money for the option. I, got the two-year option, I remember, with an extension of, I think, another eight, six months or something like that after that.

20:22Jawad MirOkay.

20:23Vadim PerelmanVery expensive, actually. It wasn't cheap. And then I just started. I sat down and I, and I did what I do best, which was procrastinated for a long time, you know? I wouldn't, I wouldn't... You know, I got... "Hey, listen, I have commercials to make. I'm making money, and blah."

20:42Jawad MirYeah.

20:42Vadim Perelman"Plus I still, I have a whole year and a half and, you know."

20:45Jawad MirOh, yeah. I can wait.

20:46Vadim PerelmanOr, w… yeah, it was more... Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? It's like, especially since I've never done it before, imagine the fear, and especially having, you know, being raised and brought up on books and having this fear of, "What if I'm a piece of shit and I can't write like these guys that I, you know, that I admire?" 'Cause I always thought, you know, maybe... And I never tried, so I don't know. Maybe I'm awful. Maybe I'm good. Who knows, right? So, but the start is very scary. And

21:16Jawad MirI find it, I find it interesting that you had this art of conviction and confidence to convince the guy, and then complete opposite

21:24Vadim PerelmanIt's... Oh, yeah, but that's my whole…

21:25Jawad MirBut that's how, that's how all of us are. Like, artists are like that, right? And…

21:27Vadim PerelmanJoa, that's my whole life, man. I mean, it's, it's the, it's the dichotomy of, the bravest and the most chicken shit, and the, you know, the strongest and the weakest and so on. That's, that's, that's what... Like two magnets, that's what creates that force field in between…

21:44Jawad MirYeah

21:44Vadim Perelman... That drives it forward, you know?

21:47Jawad MirFor sure, man. For sure.

21:48Vadim PerelmanLike those trains that run on magnets, you know?

21:51Jawad MirYeah.

21:53Vadim PerelmanSo yeah, if it was two negatives, it's fucking nothing. Just get stuck together.

21:59Jawad MirRight.

22:00Vadim PerelmanRight? Or I don't know if I'm correct scientifically, but, anyway, so yeah. And then I sat in the last possible moment. I mean, it was already in Opem. There was already people offering me to buy it from me, namely Harvey. And, you know, and I told him to go fuck himself. Fucking no, and made an enemy for life. But yeah, after…

22:26Jawad MirOh, he tried to buy the book? Miramax tried to buy the book?

22:28Vadim PerelmanOh, he, yeah, he tried to buy the... He did. He tried to buy the book for Todd Field, the guy who did In the Bedroom at the time.

22:35Jawad MirOkay.

22:36Vadim PerelmanIt was like, I don't know what happened to Todd, but he was a hot director at the time.

22:42Jawad MirInteresting. And then how…

22:44Vadim PerelmanYeah, he told, he told me, I went to a meeting with this outside story. I went to a meeting at his hotel, and…

22:50Jawad MirOh, God

22:52Vadim Perelman... And there he is in his bathrobe. No. No, I went to the... It was actually around a table with his assistants and stuff. And…

22:59Jawad MirYeah

23:00Vadim Perelman... And, yeah, to this day I... Me too.

23:09Jawad MirMore like me three, right?

23:13Vadim PerelmanYeah, exactly. Me a hundred. Anyway, so I told him, "No, I don't wanna do that." He offered me a lot of money. He offered me any movie from, Miramax library…

23:23Jawad MirYeah

23:23Vadim Perelman... What I, that I wanted to do, so on. So I refused. And, so f… when it finally came to write it, I sat down and wrote it, and I wrote it in, I think, two weeks.

23:37Jawad MirWow.

23:37Vadim PerelmanThe final thing. Yeah, which was insane. It was in a hotel in Toronto, the Windsor Arms. I remember that.

23:44Jawad MirThe Windsor Arms. Where is that? I'm just trying to remember.

23:46Vadim PerelmanBloor and, that's where the festival all the time is.

23:51Jawad MirOh, the…

23:51Vadim PerelmanBloor, the little, the little boutique. No, it's a boutiquey hotel. It's like a little hotel on Bloor and, fucking what is the street that it's on? There used to be a film bookstore right on that street, little one.

24:04Jawad MirOh, the…

24:04Vadim PerelmanIt's if you go... You know where, Grand & Toy on Bloor is? And where the…

24:08Jawad MirYeah

24:09Vadim Perelman... That's historic.

24:10Jawad MirGrand & Bloor, it's near that area.

24:11Vadim PerelmanYeah, and you just go... That is by U of T. Right by U of T.

24:15Jawad MirRight.

24:15Vadim PerelmanYou go... Anyway, Windsor Arms Hotel, famous hotel. It's like... Anyway, that's where I wrote the script.

24:23Jawad MirTwo weeks, that's, that's quite

24:25Vadim PerelmanIt was q… it was quite a... Yeah. It was a, it was a fever, feverish, crazed thing. And to tell you the truth, it hasn't changed since. I mean, the script was exactly. Nothing. I edited a little bit, like, for length, but I think it's, it's pretty much what I wrote.

24:46Jawad MirAnd that, I was gonna ask you one of those questions afterwards, and it's amazing that... I haven't read the book, right? So, but I saw the film when it came out. I remember I absolutely loved it, and I had, I saw so many political layers in there. Like, if you read…

25:01Vadim PerelmanNo, I think, I think for people who are not, who are, who have some immigrant history, it's, it's, it's a, you know, it triggers a lot of things.

25:10Jawad MirYeah, it did. And then I…

25:11Vadim PerelmanYeah

25:11Jawad Mir... Saw it again last week with the fresh eyes, and even it was m… way more meaningful now. I think it's like, with the world that we're living in right now…

25:21Vadim PerelmanAmerica and…

25:23Jawad MirEverywhere. I think it's everywhere now, and it was just, what I loved about it, and at the time, this was two years after 9/11, right? Like, when things were, like in terms of like…

25:32Vadim PerelmanYeah, true

25:33Jawad Mir... Middle East and Iran…

25:34Vadim PerelmanExactly

25:34Jawad Mir... And all that stuff.

25:35Vadim PerelmanExactly.

25:36Jawad MirAnd at that time, I remember I was watching it in theaters, and I was thinking to myself, there was that sense of worry. I was still young, I was in my early 20s, is this gonna be depicted properly in terms of the Iranian family? Like, I had that question throughout, and I cannot tell you that at that time, I think that was probably one of the only films, if not the only films, where it was done in such…

25:59Vadim PerelmanYeah

26:00Jawad Mir... A balanced way. Like, everybody was broken, every character was broken, everybody had their backstory.

26:04Vadim Perelman'Cause it was, you know, it was my family. It was, you know, it's, it's, it was your family. It's, it's like…

26:10Jawad MirYeah

26:10Vadim Perelman... For me, there was... And this is what I meant when I told Andre that I'm gonna do it right, you know? 'Cause it could've been, oh, my God. E… everybody, even the plot of it seems like a Lifetime movie, you know? It's like horrible…

26:22Jawad MirYeah

26:22Vadim Perelman... You know, thing that could've been butchered to no end. And yeah, thank you. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, that, but that was, that was, you know, that, the Kingsley character, Barani character, colonel, you know, he was my stepfather, 100% modeled upon my stepfather.

26:43Jawad MirI was gonna ask you that.

26:44Vadim PerelmanThe mother, the mother was my mother. Kathy was, my first wife, even down to the Mountain Dew and all these projects that she starts around the house and never finishes.

26:53Jawad MirThat's very personal.

26:54Vadim PerelmanShe even had the same voice. And people say, "Who were you?" And I always say, "Well, I was, I guess I was the 13-year-old kid, and at the same time, I was the cop."

27:05Jawad MirOh, I was gonna…

27:05Vadim PerelmanIn a weird, in a…

27:06Jawad MirI was gonna…

27:07Vadim Perelman... In a weird way, you know? In a weird way, I was the righteous cop to, that, left this family, et cetera, et cetera. And, so yeah, so that was very personal, and I think that's why, that's why I did it with such care, I guess.

27:25Jawad MirIt was, it was done so well. I was watching with my wife. She saw it the first time, and she did not see the end coming. And, you know, like, especially when the kid turns around, I'm not gonna give it away for those who haven't seen it.

27:38Vadim PerelmanYeah.

27:39Jawad MirBut it, you know, it's, it reminds me at the, it reminded me at the time and still do t… today, like Shakespeare, a Shakespeare play essentially.

27:49Vadim PerelmanThank you.

27:50Jawad MirThat's what it was.

27:51Vadim PerelmanThat's what it was.

27:53Jawad MirAnd…

27:53Vadim PerelmanAnd a Greek tragedy in a way. I think that's why people ask me, "What's with all the fog shots and the tree shots and the bird shots and all that?" I said, "That's gods. That's the gods, you know?"

28:05Jawad MirAnd…

28:05Vadim Perelman"That's the life going on without these people."

28:09Jawad MirI mean, Roger Deakins was a perfect choice for the cinematographer. I mean, he just did a phenomenal job.

28:15Vadim PerelmanHe's always the perfect choice, the most recent.

28:16Jawad MirYeah, I mean, I'm a huge... The two cinematographers that I really look up to is, him and Janusz Kaminski, of course, like, you know, is

28:25Vadim PerelmanYeah

28:25Jawad Mir... From…

28:26Vadim PerelmanJanusz is, Janusz is great, no question about it. I thought that, Conrad Hall Sr. Was…

28:34Jawad MirHe was great too

28:34Vadim Perelman... Com… comparable…

28:36Jawad MirFor sure

28:36Vadim Perelman... Ever since you're doing the, probably doing American Beauty and stuff.

28:38Jawad MirAmerican Beauty, yeah. He was incredible.

28:40Vadim PerelmanYeah, I mean, he's, he's unreal. He's un… he's better, I think, than Deakins, he was. Unfortunately, he died just before my film.

28:48Jawad MirYeah.

28:48Vadim PerelmanYeah.

28:49Jawad MirI think, did he do Road to Perdition, or did he die after…

28:52Vadim PerelmanYes. Yeah, no, he did Road to Per…

28:54Jawad MirHe did.

28:54Vadim PerelmanThat was his last film. Yeah.

28:55Jawad MirYeah.

28:56Vadim PerelmanYeah, Connie Hall.

28:58Jawad MirFantastic. So…

28:59Vadim PerelmanSo imagine me, first time director, having written a script for the first time, and suddenly I got Roger Deakins…

29:07Jawad MirI know. Ben Kings…

29:08Vadim Perelman... James Horner. James Horner, Ben Kingsley, Jennifer Connelly just coming off an Oscar. They both just coming off an Oscar.

29:16Jawad MirBen Kings… Jennifer was in, Beautiful Mind.

29:18Vadim PerelmanJennifer, Beautiful Mind, and Ben was coming off a nomination for, or maybe he won, Sexy Beast.

29:24Jawad MirOh, yes.

29:25Vadim PerelmanI don't remember.

29:25Jawad MirHe did. I think he won that.

29:25Vadim PerelmanBut I think he won or, yeah.

29:28Jawad MirYeah, which leads to my next question. I mean, bef… obviously you got, DreamWorks was new at the time. They had been six years in business. I mean, when your studio's new, you know, they like to take chances and s… and all of that. Tell, before we go into the casting, like how did, how did it land at DreamWorks? Who did you pitch it to? Was it Spielberg or somebody else at DreamWorks?

29:48Vadim PerelmanDidn't pitch to anybody. Didn't pitch to anybody. It was, it was…

29:51Jawad MirOh

29:51Vadim Perelman... It was a weird fairy tale, the whole thing. I'll tell you how. This is all gonna sound like I'm just, you know, blowing my own horn.

29:58Jawad MirNo.

29:58Vadim PerelmanBut it, but it's actually, it actually went down this way.

30:01Jawad MirIt should.

30:01Vadim PerelmanIt's the truth. What happened was is the script was so fucking good, you know? Just because the material was so good. Just…

30:12Jawad MirYeah

30:12Vadim Perelman... Just came together. It wasn't, wasn't my genius by any means, but the script was so attractive to people, even though it's completely uncommercial and completely, you know, but it was attractive to mini majors, let's say it that way. The topic. Because people I think felt the profoundness in what you were talking about, how it's even more important now and all this. They felt that this isn't just like a quick movie. That it's a movie that'll be remembered.

30:38Jawad MirYeah.

30:40Vadim PerelmanAnd, so everybody wanted to be involved with it. I remember I was barraged by actors, by, producers, by, studios, and I was producing it myself with absolutely no experience. So I got Michael London to kind of take the brunt of that. But at a very, like, almost a late stage, you know, he came in. I already had the actors, I believe, at that point. And the studio, actually, I already had. But the way the studio came about was, you know, there was a model that was like foreign and domestic.

31:18Vadim PerelmanSo for, foreign…

31:21Jawad MirParamount?

31:22Vadim PerelmanY… no, it wasn't Paramount at all. W… I flew to... No, it was no majors. It was, it was, independent.

31:28Jawad MirOkay.

31:28Vadim PerelmanIt was, a guy named Stuart Till, company called Signpost at the time.

31:33Jawad MirOkay.

31:34Vadim PerelmanKind of, you know, like foreign sales company.

31:37Jawad MirGot it.

31:38Vadim PerelmanLater he went to, I think he was at Universal or Paramount, something. He was the head of foreign. And, so it was a private funding company kind of thing, and I met him at Cannes, and I flew there to pump the movie. Who paid for that, actually? I'm just thinking. How did I, who paid for the trip to Cannes, and the brochures and all that? Anyway, it, I m… oh no, it was already Stuart. It was already Stuart. I met Stuart in LA. I met Stuart at the Four Seasons in LA. He says, "Come to my room." I can't... People... I should just say, I just went to people's rooms. That's how I got the movie made. No. Y… you know, he was, like, busy passing through, you know, big financier guy. And he says, "Listen, I read your script." He called me, like, "I read your script last, you know, last night and I couldn't sleep all night. You know, really emotional, really. Can you come, like I'm flying out. Can you come meet with me right away?" I said, "Yeah, where are you?" "Four Seasons." So I, you know, went to the Four Seasons over there in Burton Way.

32:39Vadim PerelmanAnd, you know, he's sitting there with s… He had a suite. I sat down and he said, he had coffee, whatever, and he said, "I wanna do your movie. How much do you think it's gonna cost?" And I'm like, "You know, I've never done a movie. I have no idea." So I pulled a fucking figure out of my ass. I said just, "15 million." You know? He goes, "15, yeah, that seems..." That's exactly what it cost in the end.

33:02Jawad MirYeah.

33:02Vadim PerelmanIt was like 15…

33:03Jawad MirNo, I

33:03Vadim Perelman... Plus a little bit. Plus later they added a little bit for the score. But it was like 15 million guessed right. And he goes, "I, you know, I can probably give you nine of it for foreign rights." And he's like, I have no lawyer, I have nobody. I'm just like, I'm sitting there with this fucking commercials director and I'm going, "Okay, yeah." I put on an important face. I go, "That sounds, seems really good, nine." He goes, "And the rest you could just get domestically from whoever, the six mil." I said, "Good." And he goes, "Okay, so give me, give me together with your people." I go, "Okay, I gotta get the people first." You know? And so I got the people. Of course, no shortage of that. And I negotiated so nine million is his. Then I flew to Cannes, and then, at some point, I can't remember who's i… I think it was my lawyer's idea at the time, and he said, or my manager's idea. He said, "Let's do, let's do like, you know, like not an auction where somebody pays the most money, but who wants it more?

34:03Vadim PerelmanAnd who, among domestic people."

34:06Jawad MirYeah.

34:06Vadim Perelman"And who, you know, who has..." And this is important. This is what he told me. Thank God he told me. "Who has, like, a slate that doesn't, that doesn't have conflicting things coming up. You know, who ha… a… and who will give you the control and the freedom most important."

34:23Jawad MirYeah.

34:24Vadim PerelmanAnd of course, a better back end, whatever, you know?

34:28Jawad MirYeah.

34:28Vadim PerelmanRight? So we went into th… with that, and I remember it was like five or six mini majors all calling me, presidents. Me, a kid from fucking Kiev, you know.

34:41Jawad MirYeah.

34:41Vadim PerelmanCalling me and going, "This is, you know, this is what we can offer. This kind of a sales campaign. This kind of a, you know, like an awards campaign." Blah. I mean, just based on the script. And already attachments, I think at that point there was already attachments. Jennifer was already there and Ben was there, and, no crew yet. So, based on that, I said, "Well, DreamWorks of course." And it w… Harvey was in on that, of course, even at that stage. Later on, Harvey managed to somehow be involved. He bought England from Stuart Till. He b…

35:25Jawad MirHe bought what sorry?

35:26Vadim PerelmanAnd rel… he released it in UK.

35:29Jawad MirOh, he did? Interesting.

35:32Vadim PerelmanAfter all that, it was his... Yeah. He needed to be involved somehow, without my knowledge. Well, he bought it from DreamWorks. He bought UK from DreamWorks, I think. Yeah.

35:43Jawad MirThat's interesting you mention that because a couple of years before that, and I think it was 1999… ... At the Oscars when Saving Private Ryan had come out and Shakespearean Love was, had come out. I mean…

35:55Vadim PerelmanOh, yeah, that was a big fight. Big…

35:57Jawad MirOh, big fight. Huge

35:59Vadim Perelman... Terry Press, Terry Press, from DreamWorks…

36:02Jawad MirAt DreamWorks

36:02Vadim Perelman... Who I'm sure you know. Yeah. And Harvey's people, it was war. I mean, it was like they didn't like each other at all. And I didn't like Harvey either at all. So for me, it was, it was a, it was a pleasure to go up against his stuff. And, it was, It's interesting. It was,.. So anyway, that was part of the consideration, and so we did it. And DreamWorks gave me a kind of an unprecedented deal too, you know? They gave me, final cut, which really means nothing…

36:47Jawad MirYeah

36:47Vadim Perelman... Just so, just so you know.

36:49Jawad MirRight.

36:49Vadim PerelmanFinal cut, when the director says he got final cut, they can just say, "Well, fuck you. We're not gonna release the movie then. Do whatever you want," you know? Or, you know, "Yeah, we'll just sit on it. We have other movies to release." You know, ki… kind of thing.

37:03Jawad MirYeah.

37:03Vadim PerelmanRight? If they're a studio. That's what Harvey used to do all the time. And I got first dollar gross, which is, nobody gets that anymore. I don't think even the top stars do that…

37:20Jawad MirNo, I don't think, yeah

37:20Vadim Perelman... Anymore. You know what that means, right?

37:22Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

37:24Vadim PerelmanYeah, it means that whatever Variety shows, you get a percent of it.

37:28Jawad MirThose are that, yeah.

37:30Vadim PerelmanYeah, percent of box office, and DVD, and all that.

37:34Jawad MirI think Tom Cruise…

37:34Vadim PerelmanStill get that

37:35Jawad Mir... Still gets that.

37:36Vadim PerelmanMaybe, yeah.

37:37Jawad MirYeah.

37:38Vadim PerelmanBut not 10%.

37:40Jawad MirNo, I know. Probably 12.

37:42Vadim PerelmanWhich is what I, which is what I had.

37:44Jawad MirYeah.

37:45Vadim PerelmanI don't know if, I don't know if I'll be revealing some sort of secrets right now, but, in your podcast, but that's, that's it. That's, that was my deal. Yeah, so it was unprecedented for a first-time director to get something like that.

37:59Jawad MirAnd how... So getting, you know, Ben King… Sir Ben Kingsley on board, and Jennifer Connelly, who had, you know, who's done films like Labyrinth and…

38:08Vadim PerelmanIt was a dr… it was a dream. It was a dream.

38:10Jawad MirYeah.

38:10Vadim PerelmanAbsolute dream.

38:12Jawad MirHow, h… what was, what was it like meeting them the first time, or working on the set with them? Or any memorable story that you can remember from a scene, or behind the scene?

38:23Vadim PerelmanWell, Ben is a very, Sir Ben, I call him. He allowed me to call him Ben. But, Sir…

38:29Jawad MirHe would be humbled, but…

38:30Vadim PerelmanYeah, he's, he's a great guy. We're really good friends, actually.

38:33Jawad MirYeah.

38:33Vadim PerelmanSo he, you know, but at the, at the time I was very intimidated, I remember, even though I'm not the intimidated type. But he's, you know…

38:45Jawad MirPresence.

38:46Vadim PerelmanYeah, his presence, and his undeniable talent, and his…

38:51Jawad MirYeah

38:51Vadim Perelman... You know. And he doesn't suffer fools at all. And, you know, and here I am, first-time director, and, you know, God knows what the fuck this guy's gonna do, or how he's gonna torment me type of thing. So I might as well do a preemptive strike before that, and make sure I'm who's boss type of thing. You know, that's all the stuff…

39:12Jawad MirYeah, that's, that's what directing is

39:13Vadim Perelman... Those…

39:13Jawad MirYou gotta put your foot down

39:14Vadim Perelman... Exa… exactly. So, I was talking from his side, not me doing the preemptive strike.

39:19Jawad MirOh, okay.

39:20Vadim PerelmanYeah.

39:20Jawad MirGot it.

39:20Vadim PerelmanI didn't have the ammunition to do the preemptive strike at the time. And, so we just got along. We just, we just incredibly, it was extremely respectful, and, a lovely working relationship. It really was. And in the, in the end, we became friends bec… actually, during it we became friends. When we were, when we were promoting the film, we were together, you know, all the time. And, he was, he was extremely complimentary, like in a... 'Cause he's a genuine guy. You know, in a, in a genuine way, as far as my directing goes, which I just kinda winged it, 'cause I didn't know what the hell I was doing really that much. I learned fast. Like, about halfway through the movie I learned how to direct movies. Like, but at first, I was like, "I don't know what I'm doing." You know? But I pretended well. And

40:17Jawad MirYeah

40:17Vadim Perelman... So that everybody kinda bought it, bought my self-confidence and all that. And, so yeah, he was a good guy. A really good guy. And Jennifer was lovely too. You know, absolutely. She was in the throes of love at the time with Paul Bettany. They just met, and stuff like that.

40:39Jawad MirYeah.

40:39Vadim PerelmanBut it was... You know, I don't think Jennifer was ever more beautiful than she is in my film. You can't name any other film where she's like... You know, and she's, one of the most beautiful people in the world. And the talent, which I saw, and it's a fucking crime that she wasn't nominated for any of that, awards.

41:00Jawad MirI was gonna say, I mean, she was…

41:02Vadim PerelmanFucking crime

41:03Jawad Mir... Phenomenal.

41:03Vadim PerelmanFucking crime. These fucking assholes…

41:06Jawad MirShe…

41:06Vadim Perelman... At the Academy. You know?

41:08Jawad MirShe was, like the whole, her whole arc, the way she brought that out, you see it from the beginning.

41:16Vadim PerelmanWho the fuck, who the fuck... This is gonna be good on your podcast. Who the fuck remembers Lord of the Rings three? And what the fuck…

41:27Jawad MirI'll tell you…

41:27Vadim Perelman... Went on in that movie?

41:29Jawad MirI'll tell you what…

41:29Vadim PerelmanYou know, who the hell rem…

41:31Jawad MirI s… that's Return of the King. I'll tell you, I was talking to somebody a couple of days ago. I slept through the movie. I couldn't take it. It…

41:37Vadim PerelmanIt's a piece of shit

41:38Jawad Mir... It was too much

41:39Vadim PerelmanThe whole fucking, the whole thing is a piece of shit. That is absolutely has a fucking shelf life of three years, five years, and that's it. Now you look at it looks laughable. The effects, and these orcs, and all that stuff, it's just, you know…

41:54Jawad MirYeah

41:54Vadim Perelman... It doesn't, it doesn't have the staying power. It doesn't have the profoundness, the importance, and all that.

42:01Jawad MirI…

42:01Vadim PerelmanBut anyway

42:02Jawad Mir... I enjoyed the first one very much, and that's, I'm glad that you mentioned the staying power, and I feel that's something in our society as well as in film. We're always thinking short term.

42:13Vadim PerelmanYeah, it's disposable.

42:14Jawad MirRight? Like nobody thinks about what will it do in 10, 15 years. And then they think about it when that time has arrived, it's too late now. Right?

42:23Vadim PerelmanYeah.

42:23Jawad MirLike you don't think about the…

42:24Vadim PerelmanAnd we remember, we remember Forrest Gump.

42:27Jawad MirOf course.

42:27Vadim PerelmanWe remember, you know, we remember, American Beauty.

42:32Jawad MirYeah.

42:32Vadim PerelmanWe remember E.T And, you know, and, things like that are, that are timeless films. House of Sand and Fog, on a lesser level, but still. You know? But no… but this fucking shit, it's... I call it, I call it the McDonaldization of cinema. You know, it's all like…

42:51Jawad MirNow more than ever before

42:53Vadim Perelman... Yeah, it's nuggets, you know, hearing yum. You know? And, that's it, and we forget them.

43:00Jawad MirAnd instant lack of attention, right? Like, so…

43:02Vadim PerelmanWe eat them, we shit them out, and we forget them, you know, and that's it.

43:06Jawad MirAnd that's why I actually, personally, honestly, like, maybe once in a blue moon I'll watch something that came out new, like Top Gun, the new Top Gun that came out. After a long time I saw a good movie in theaters. A long time.

43:20Vadim PerelmanThat's nos… nostalgic value.

43:23Jawad MirYeah, but it did have, it did have a good, s… simple story. Like, there were some emotional scenes, there were... I m… it was done properly. It wasn't, it's not awesome or…

43:30Vadim PerelmanI just made... Do you know what? I just made a good one. I just made a movie that…

43:35Jawad MirExactly

43:35Vadim Perelman... That is, I think, comparable. I'm not talking about House of Sand and Fog. That was, that was my first. I just made a film that completed House of Sand and Fog. You know, it's, it's been released…

43:45Jawad MirReally?

43:45Vadim Perelman... All over the world, 50 countries. It's ex… it's called Persian Lessons, in a strange

43:51Jawad MirOh

43:51Vadim Perelman... Kind of a coincidence.

43:53Jawad MirThe Iranian and the Jewish? I gotta see that. I saw it online…

43:57Vadim PerelmanThe con… the concentration camp film. You should see this film. I'll send you a link after, if you want.

44:02Jawad MirYeah, I would love to. I would love to see it.

44:03Vadim PerelmanYeah. And it's released in 50 countries, like, even despite COVID, and it fought its way through. It was released in China, 23,000 screens.

44:11Jawad MirWow.

44:11Vadim PerelmanAnd it was... Yeah, and it was, nominated for their first foreign Oscar, and, the Anthony Hopkins film, Father, I think won. So it was one of the five non-Chinese films that they chose from the world. You know, it was premiered Berlin Film Festival, played all over the place. Won, awards all over the place, you know, here.

44:36Jawad MirFantastic.

44:36Vadim PerelmanYeah. It's a good film.

44:39Jawad MirAnd…

44:39Vadim PerelmanI'll send it to you.

44:39Jawad MirNo, I would love to check it out.

44:40Vadim PerelmanIt'll never be released. I don't think it'll be released in the States. I don't, I don't know what they're doing with it. It's, Cohen Media, and they are,.. I'm doing a lot of Jewish film festivals and winning them, you know, for what it's worth.

44:54Jawad MirOh, of course.

44:54Vadim PerelmanThey said that might have, might have been, might have been a good, like, run up to... We were, we were up for an Oscar, for an Oscar, and then they disqualified us because we submitted it from Belarus, and, there wasn't enough people from Belarus in the film, even though we shot it there, and all the extras and support and, you know, all that was Belarus. So I guess i… it, we tried to get around, you know. So, and they, so they disqualified us. It, but it did really well. It was nominated for best film at the European Oscars and so on. It was a good film.

45:33Jawad MirI would love to, I'd love to see it. Yeah, we can definitely exchange later.

45:37Vadim PerelmanYou are gonna love it. Because if you loved House of Sand and Fog, you're gonna love it. You'll see.

45:40Jawad MirI…

45:40Vadim PerelmanYou'll see, you'll see.

45:41Jawad MirI will…

45:41Vadim PerelmanMany things similar

45:42Jawad Mir... I will send you a link.

45:45Vadim PerelmanOkay

45:45Jawad Mir... One of the two films, one of them is about, an Afghan who speaks Persian, and that's all I'll say. It's, it's a crazy story. He leaves his,.. He's an Afghan filmmaker, and he comes under threat from Taliban, and they give him basically, like, you know, a death threat. So he fled Afghanistan without saying goodbye…

46:04Vadim PerelmanIt's a documentary?

46:05Jawad MirYeah. But it's, it's, it's narrative. Without saying goodbye to his, family, like, he just walks out. Wife, kids, father. Try... This is around the, 20... This was 2017, 2015 when the refugee crisis happened, and he ended up in Europe's worst refugee detention center, Moria camp in Greece. And then he secretly documented inside, and I kinda come… we both co-directed it, and I wrote it. And you would love it. You would absolutely love it.

46:34Vadim PerelmanOh, send it to me. Send it to me.

46:35Jawad MirYeah. We got shortlisted…

46:37Vadim PerelmanYeah

46:37Jawad Mir... At Hot Dogs and a few other festivals, and we're just now going through the whole distribution process. But anyways, yeah, would love to exchange that.

46:44Vadim PerelmanVery cool. Yeah, Persian Lessons is, Persian Lessons is like a Hollywood movie. It's, it's, it's slick. It's slick movie. But now it has become, a, it's like it's entered the pantheon, which is kinda cool. The Pianist, Schindler's List, and…

47:02Jawad MirYeah

47:02Vadim Perelman... Life Is Beautiful pantheon. Like, it's in there with those, on that scale, which is pretty cool for me.

47:09Jawad MirI'm, I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward to it.

47:12Vadim PerelmanYeah. You're welcome.

47:13Jawad MirI wanted to ask you about cinematography. I mean, every director works differently, and this is for the audience, maybe I'll learn something out of it too, is a lot of directors work differently, right? Like, for example, Quentin Tarantino, he likes to be right next to the cam… cameraman, working with the actors. Then there are directors, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just personal style, you know, who would not be involved in the camera as much, but more with the actors, and they would sit i… in front of a monitor. How did you work with Roger, and what was it that... Like, were you, hands-on at camera at every time? Or was it just like, "Okay, go"?

47:51Vadim PerelmanNo. No. I tried to be, because that's kind of my nature, you know? But then he hissed at me like a cat, just went, "His." And I, and I backed off. And rightfully so. I mean, he's Roger Deakins. Fuck am I gonna tell him? But, you know, but I tried to be involved, you know, somehow. It's, it's, it's a sign of a inexperienced directors, when they try to be, try and affect every step of the thing.

48:18Jawad MirYeah.

48:18Vadim PerelmanYou know, trying to justify their presence there, right?

48:23Jawad MirBut I think my... And I'm like that too, like I... Because before you become a filmmaker, you're a cameraman, right?

48:31Vadim PerelmanExactly. Exactly.

48:32Jawad MirLike we all, we all have. So that's kinda, like, engraved in our head…

48:37Vadim PerelmanYeah, but we're shitty cameramen.

48:38Jawad MirI know, for sure.

48:38Vadim PerelmanThat's, that's what we have to remember. We're not a good cameraman.

48:42Jawad MirWe... But we think we're great cameramen, right? So in our head…

48:45Vadim PerelmanRight

48:45Jawad Mir... We think like that.

48:46Vadim PerelmanRight. Right. No, actually…

48:48Jawad MirRight

48:48Vadim Perelman... It's funny because I, you know, I worked a lot in Russia, in the last few years, and, their system of working with a, they call them operator, which means operator, different, but operator means DP in Russia.

49:04Jawad MirYeah.

49:04Vadim PerelmanAnd, yeah, and, it is an inc… it is a co…, absolute, you know, co-working, co-whatever. It's, it's a partnership where they, you know, you let him set the shot, you know? And that's kinda, that's how I work with Roger. That's not how I worked with everybody, but that's how I worked with Roger, yeah, because, you know, let him, you know, a lot of respect and all that. And so he did, and it's, it's, just comes so easily to him, you know?

49:38Jawad MirOh, I can imagine.

49:39Vadim Perelman'Cause I have to, I have to rack my brain, you know, just even blocking the scene. You know, I've been doing commercials at that time for, you know, maybe a decade and a half, maybe more, you know? And, but I've never done, like, four people, like the eviction scene. You know, I've never done, you know, people crossing the thing and him going, sitting down there, and she's, and this guy's there, and that guy's there, and she's walks over here and says something. Like, I don't fucking know how to cover that even. I don't have the... I, and I do now, but back then, I you know, I had no idea. And the way we work, if you wanna know the actual process, what Roger taught me was... And this is, I'm sure it's not unique, but it was unique to me at the time, is, we get into the set, and let's say it's, like, the eviction scene.

50:31Jawad MirRight.

50:32Vadim PerelmanAnd it's me, Roger, first AD, sound guy, maybe the art director's there, and so on. And the actors, before makeup even, get them all in there. Get everybody the fuck out of the stage so there's no talking, no noise. You know, they're all out there smoking and doing whatever, and we have this, you know, the house to ourselves, the room to ourselves. And we just... And I say to the actors, "Show us. Show us what you're gonna do in this space." Like theater, you know?

51:04Jawad MirYeah.

51:04Vadim PerelmanAnd yeah. A… and they, and they walk, and Ben goes, "Well, I don't know. I pick this up, or you know, I'd, I'd..." You know, the, he's, he's feeling the space. He's creating as much as I am as a director in the, in the moment. Not just movement, but even, like, I think it'd be better, you know... I, and I'll, and I'll say, you know, "I think this would be better back lit." You know, the whole thing where you're, like, this person's more threatening as a silhouette type of thing. You know, just so if I had a choice of doing it like this or like that, let's do it like that, you know. Back is against the window. And go, "Okay. Well, let me rethink the whole thing." And meanwhile, Roger's sitting there watching it all ha… with one eye, and the AD and me are writing down to have a diagram writing the little c… angles of cameras, you know? And then thank you at the end, and everybody go to makeup, you know. And Roger goes to read his newspaper, which he does every morning.

52:07Vadim PerelmanSits in the corner of the stage on a chair, on a, one of those stools, and opens up the LA Times and reads it, you know. And I'm standing there going, "How the fuck am I gonna film this?" Right? And now I'm left alone, which is, like, the worst fear of every director, I think, at some point. And before I, before I had the experience of how to film, like, multi-person scenes with movement and so on, it's harder than you think, you know?

52:35Jawad MirYeah, no, I... It's great…

52:36Vadim PerelmanI watched Steven. I watched Ste… Steven brought me to the Terminal set one time.

52:41Jawad MirI was gonna say, he does blocking and

52:43Vadim PerelmanAnd my God, I've never seen anything like it in my... How easy it comes to him. He's a savant. I mean, he's a fucking savant, you know?

52:53Jawad MirHe…

52:53Vadim PerelmanHe really is.

52:53Jawad MirIf you…

52:54Vadim PerelmanYeah

52:54Jawad Mir... If you remember Minority Report, this somehow is the only scene that is engraved in my head. When, Colin Farrell's character pushes Tom Cruise's character in the elevator, and it's all one shot, and the way the camera moves, you can't tell if the camera's moving or the people are moving.

53:12Vadim PerelmanOr they're moving. Yeah.

53:13Jawad MirYeah. And that, and that's craft, right? Like, that's just…

53:16Vadim PerelmanSteven reacts to this. After he saw my movie, he said, "The one shot, oh, wow." He was like, "Oh, wow, one shot." I'm going, "Which one? Like, what the... " He goes, "When Kingsley comes into his apartment, goes to the washer, comes back out, checks the mail..." It was a one shot too.

53:36Jawad MirYeah.

53:36Vadim PerelmanChecks the mail, a… and then the kid comes in with bloody knees, you know. And that's, that was one shot, and I show their whole world, all their photos and everything. In the meantime, he walks u… out of the shot, and I go along the photos and so. And I do this all the time in all my films, but back then it was my first time. He goes, "Wow, Vadim, wow." You know? He said, "Great shot." He loves the one, the one shot deals.

53:59Jawad MirYeah, it…

54:00Vadim PerelmanYeah

54:00Jawad Mir... And you're right. It's so amazing. You can say so much by not saying anything, by just showing visuals, right? Like, it even…

54:08Vadim PerelmanPlus it, plus it's, it's easier.

54:11Jawad MirEven... Yeah. It, well, yeah, but at the time you're thinking…

54:15Vadim PerelmanIt is.

54:16Jawad MirBut at the time you're thinking that, well, is this something that's gonna convey emotion or what you're trying to do to the audience? Like, even…

54:22Vadim PerelmanWell, it can't be just a stupid shot for the sake of a shot.

54:24Jawad MirNo, I know. I know.

54:25Vadim PerelmanIt has, it has to have content and meaning.

54:28Jawad MirBut even Jennifer Connelly's backstory, Kathy, her character, Kathy's backstory, you don't meet her mom. You don't meet her brother. You don't meet her ex-husband. But in that scene where she's lying down on the bed in the beginning, I think that's when she was introduced, you figure out her entire…

54:43Vadim PerelmanYeah, you know everything And you know she's lying to them, and you know... Yeah.

54:47Jawad MirYeah.

54:47Vadim PerelmanYeah. Yeah, I wrote that. That's not in the book. Yeah, I wrote that.

54:52Jawad MirGood for you.

54:53Vadim PerelmanYeah, that was pretty cool.

54:54Jawad MirThat's awesome.

54:55Vadim PerelmanYeah. I'm pr… you know, that's the, that's exposition. Subtle exposition, you know, where you have, you're just telling about the characters s… without using, devices like, "Well, you know you're the best student in the class." You know, things like that. Where the mother says to the kid, whatever.

55:17Jawad MirThere was a... I don't know if you ever seen that show, people were s… the OJ Simpson, the one that, came out four, five years ago with John Travolta.

55:25Vadim PerelmanOh, with, what's her name? There was Tonya Harding. She played... No.

55:30Jawad MirNo. No, I don't

55:31Vadim PerelmanSomebody played, s… somebody played the prosecutor, Marcia Clark's scene.

55:36Jawad MirI know exa… I don't remember her name, but she's a very famous actor. She was in

55:40Vadim PerelmanYeah

55:40Jawad Mir... She was in The Post with Tom Hanks and Spielberg, so she had a very small role. But there was a scene, ba… basically, the prosecutor and the defense, they were doing crazy things to each other behind the scene, and the judge told, Johnny Cochran's character that, "You need to put an end to this." So he goes out in the, in the courthouse, and there's a balcony, and she's smoking there. He goes out, he stands right next to her, he gives her a coffee, he walks back, and…

56:08Vadim PerelmanTo the prosecutor?

56:09Jawad MirYeah. And s… and he walks back, Johnny Cochran walks back, and he looks, opens the door, and he looks across just to look at her, what she's doing, and she nods, and that's it. Like, they just came at peace in that one, and that was so wonderfully done. You know? It, like, matter of minute, not even, and instead of having a long dialogue, "Well, you know, I apologize for that, and I apologize for that." It was just great.

56:31Vadim PerelmanIt's a great moment. Yeah. I haven't seen it, but it, that sounds great. Yeah.

56:35Jawad MirIt's, it's a, it's on

56:36Vadim PerelmanYeah

56:36Jawad Mir... Disney Plus. You can check it out.

56:38Vadim PerelmanEconomy. Yeah, if you can, if you can do the film as a silent film, try that.

56:46Jawad MirYeah.

56:46Vadim PerelmanThat's the way I always look at it.

56:48Jawad MirYeah, well, at first…

56:48Vadim PerelmanTry that. Turn off…

56:49Jawad MirYeah

56:50Vadim Perelman... Turn off the sound when you're editing, 'cause I edit most of it myself, too. You know, and go turn off the sound and look at it, see if it works. If it doesn't work, if you need the sound to make it work, then, you know

57:03Jawad MirThen it's not, yeah.

57:04Vadim PerelmanIt's not.

57:05Jawad MirI think Stanley Kubrick used to do that, too, if I'm not mistaken. I think.

57:09Vadim PerelmanYeah, I didn't know. I didn't, I don't... You know, I don't... It's a crazy thing. I don't emulate anybody. I don't like to emulate.

57:16Jawad MirNo, that's, that's, that's really good, and…

57:18Vadim PerelmanBut I'm sure it is.

57:20Jawad MirWell, the thing is, I think for people, some people, there's inspiration, right? You emulate, you emulate at a certain point, but then after, if you're not finding your own voice, then you're not you. Like, you get inspired…

57:32Vadim PerelmanExactly.

57:33Jawad Mir... But then you gotta figure out who the heck you are, what's your story, what are you trying to say?

57:36Vadim PerelmanThis is shameful for me. It's shameful. I remember I was very, and it was an absolute accident. You probably are gonna write about that. The pier scene.

57:47Jawad MirThe which scene?

57:48Vadim PerelmanWhen... The pier, when Jennifer's on the pier.

57:51Jawad MirYeah. At the end.

57:51Vadim PerelmanIn House of the Sun and Fog. Yeah, with the birds and all that.

57:54Jawad MirYep.

57:55Vadim PerelmanThere's three films, two films before that, where Jennifer Connelly was on a pier with exactly the same angles, everything. One was The Crow, another one was, what's the Aronofsky film? You know, with the Aron…

58:11Jawad MirRequiem for a Dream?

58:12Vadim PerelmanRe… and the other one is Requiem. Exactly the same. Loo… look at, look it up online, the pier shot from House of the Sun and Fog, and the pier shot from,.. And I was the third and last. But…

58:24Jawad MirWas that…

58:25Vadim Perelman... I had no idea. I didn't see…

58:26Jawad MirOh, you didn't know?

58:27Vadim PerelmanI don't, I don't remember. I never saw The Crow, so I don't, don't know that. But, I don't re… I saw, Requiem for a Dream, but I don't remember it, didn't remember it. It didn't stick in my mind, the pier shot. Maybe somehow it did. I don't know. You know, so it was one of those weird, like, coincidences.

58:45Jawad MirThat's crazy.

58:46Vadim PerelmanYeah, like karmic coincidences, where Jennifer Connelly, in a, in a fucked up state, is on a pier. You know? From her back, she's, like, walks onto the pier. And, I remember how mine came about. That shot was not scripted. It was not in the schedule, that whole scene on the pier. That scene saved us. I remember it was one of the moments where Roger indulged me, 'cause we were waiting, we were waiting to shoot at, on this beach in Malibu. We were waiting to shoot, the bathroom, where she shaves her armpits…

59:21Jawad MirYeah

59:21Vadim Perelman... And, you know, and washes herself, and changes, whatever. And, we were waiting for dark, 'cause he didn't wanna black out that whole little bathroom. It was like a, you know, like a tourist bathroom. And so we s… had the whole time of, like, nothing, and I looked at this pier. We're sitting around doing nothing.

59:40Jawad MirYeah.

59:40Vadim PerelmanI looked at the whole... I looked at the pier. I said, "Let's shoot on this pier. Look at all those pelicans and stuff, and, like, all these birds, and if she walks, I think they'll all fly up." Right? You know, 'cause she'll scare them, and as she walks, they'll all fly up.

59:54Jawad MirYeah.

59:54Vadim PerelmanIt was my music video commercial thing. And he said, "And then what?" Roger goes, "Then... So we'll shoot from the back." I said, "And then you get on the thing with her, and we fuck up her eyes so that she looks haunted, and we'll just spin around her. You'll just, like, walk around her." He goes, "I have the whole fucking unit here, Vadim." You know, "We're gonna spin around her. The whole parking lot behind the pier is our trucks and, you know, our…"

1:00:19Jawad MirYeah

1:00:19Vadim Perelman... "... Whole thing." I go, "We got the time. Let's get rid of the trucks. Put them up on the highway on PCH." And so it was, like, one of those, Roger goes, "All right." You know? And we did it, and that wasn't, that shot was not supposed to be in the film at all, and that shot came about from Steven's note, when he saw the cut. I had a scene… This is, this is inside knowledge. I had a scene, where Virani drives home…

1:00:53Jawad MirYeah

1:00:53Vadim Perelman... From the hospital, from the hospital…

1:00:55Jawad MirYeah

1:00:56Vadim Perelman... With his, with blood on his hands…

1:00:58Jawad MirAnd blood on his shirt

1:00:58Vadim Perelman... And the ring and all that, right? And drives home, and he walks in the house, and as you remember, Nadi was in the, in the bedroom, "I have a headache."

1:01:10Jawad MirYeah.

1:01:10Vadim PerelmanShe'd left when they were sitting there together, and, Jennifer was on the couch like this. Kathy was on the couch, and she looks up at him and sees the blood on his shirt, and blood... And he walks in. I have this scene filmed. It's on the DVD deleted scenes. And he goes, he goes like this, he just spreads his arms like this and walks towards her. And for the umpteenth time in this film, you think, "Oh, they're gonna... Everything's gonna be okay, they're gonna make up." You know, like, you know, th… they're gonna come together, America…

1:01:39Jawad MirYeah

1:01:39Vadim Perelman... And the foreign people, right? And he walks towards her like this, and she kind of rises up to meet him, and he puts his hands around her neck and throws her down on the couch and chokes her to death. I mean, literally fucking breaks her neck. You c… c… like you can hear her, and he's an animal. And I filmed it down, like all through this, her legs are scrabbling around, she's scratching his arms. I mean, like all this stuff. This insane…

1:02:08Jawad MirWow

1:02:08Vadim Perelman... Scene with one light through the windo… Look it up. Look on the deleted scenes.

1:02:11Jawad MirI'm gonna check it out.

1:02:13Vadim PerelmanYeah. And I had that. Then he goes to the bathroom cabinet, takes the pills…

1:02:20Jawad MirChange

1:02:20Vadim Perelman... And therefore the end. Then she wakes up on the couch, I had that filmed, which never sat right with me, but okay, she didn't die, right? She wakes up, this is in the script, and walks to the bedroom and weeping and same thing. So R… Steven says, "Fucking enough already," he says. It's like, because it is so pow… it's more powerful, it's probably the most like, hold your breath moment when he's killing her, that I feel this s… it ended up being so fucking powerful. And he, Steven says, "Listen, maybe it's too much." I mean, like, it's too much to have the bag scene…

1:03:05Vadim Perelman... The kids scene, the hospital scene. The, you know, it's like waves of horror…

1:03:12Jawad MirToo much going on

1:03:12Vadim Perelman... And tragedy, like horror and tragedy just washing over you and beating you. Like, it's like, you know, like stop the fight kind of thing already. The, you know, the guy's knocked out. And I said, "Yeah, maybe you're right, but how the hell am I gonna get her, where is she gonna be when he comes home? You know, if she's not on the couch, like, you know, conceptually, where's she gonna be?" And I said, "Oh, I have the pier scene. I have that thing that I did spinning around on the pier." So if you notice, she never actually opens…

1:03:51Jawad MirYeah, that's right. Yeah

1:03:51Vadim Perelman... And closes the door. I just had her, like, had her come from... The geography of the place was when she came from the couch, she stood with her back to the front door for a second…

1:04:00Jawad MirYeah

1:04:00Vadim Perelman... Looking down the hall, and that's when I put a sound of the kachunk, of the closing door there, as if she walked in, you know? And

1:04:09Jawad MirThat's cool

1:04:09Vadim Perelman... And that's how I got around the whole thing. The pier thing…

1:04:11Jawad MirSo…

1:04:11Vadim Perelman... Came in handy

1:04:13Jawad Mir... Was that scene in the, in the book originally, the way he

1:04:17Vadim PerelmanYeah. Yeah.

1:04:18Jawad MirOkay.

1:04:18Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:04:18Jawad MirSo it was in the book.

1:04:19Vadim PerelmanYeah, it, yeah, it was in the book. Yeah. It was in the book where he…

1:04:23Jawad MirAnd why... What I found in the ending, the pier scene, so the whole film was very…

1:04:29Vadim PerelmanPier scene was a save. Pier scene was like a, you know, a long passage.

1:04:36Jawad MirNo, I mean… ... I mean, it was the o… if, correct me if I'm wrong, it was the only scene that was handheld, right? Like, when the camera's going around her.

1:04:48Vadim PerelmanTrying to remember.

1:04:51Jawad MirNot the, not the long shot of her standing at the pier, but…

1:04:54Vadim PerelmanYeah. Roger doesn't really like handheld, but it was not…

1:04:57Jawad MirI was gonna say, because it…

1:04:59Vadim Perelman... 1917. 1917. But we never had Steadicam. That's one thing I know, 'cause I hate Steadicam too. And so... And I learned it from him, to hate it. I learned a lot from Roger. You know, hush.

1:05:14Jawad MirSo you just do your dolly?

1:05:16Vadim PerelmanYeah, always dolly and always an arm, and always remote head. You know, he had these little wheels, pretty good at it, you know? And he always had, he had, I don't know how he works now, but he had his, he had his black and white monitor, not even a color monitor, that he looked at, and he sat there and did the wheels. And, he had, Harry, I can't remember the guy's name. Terry, you know, the guy pushing the dolly was a special guy, and the guy holding the head was a special guy, to come down, go up. And he would get these incredible invisible moves with these guys, where he's just controlling the head, this guy's controlling the tilt and the swing of the arm, and the other guy push, is the speed of the arm, speed of the dolly. And so it's like three-man show, plus Andy on the focus pull, who's, like, never seen anything, in my years, been shooting now for 30 whatever years, and before that, all these commer… never seen anybody pull focus like that.

1:06:17Vadim PerelmanThat, he's a god.

1:06:19Jawad MirThat's, that's…

1:06:20Vadim PerelmanAnd he'll come down…

1:06:20Jawad Mir... That's a very skillful and underrated job.

1:06:23Vadim PerelmanYeah, without a monitor.

1:06:25Jawad MirYeah.

1:06:25Vadim PerelmanLike, now they're all staring at their little monitor and doing the thing.

1:06:28Jawad MirYeah.

1:06:28Vadim PerelmanDon't know what they see in this monitor, you know? He's just standing, sort of just going like this by eye, you know? It's unreal. And the camera is always moving. If you watch, House at the End of the Clock…

1:06:40Jawad MirYeah

1:06:40Vadim Perelman... Always floating. It's floating invisibly, you know? Like, really beautifully and subtly.

1:06:45Jawad MirBut I think that's a combination of writing and performances, right? Like, when you're, when you're enjoying, when you're connected to the characters… And if the camera, it... Obviously, all credit goes to Roger, but i… it becomes seamless…

1:06:59Vadim PerelmanNo, not all credit. Not all credit to Roger. I have some credit.

1:07:02Jawad MirYou know, you know what I mean, right? Like, in terms of the movie…

1:07:04Vadim PerelmanBy the end of the film, I start designing the shots too. Yeah. But anyway.

1:07:08Jawad MirOkay, I'll give you credit.

1:07:09Vadim PerelmanThank you.

1:07:10Jawad MirBut what I mean is…... The performance really draw you in, right? Like, you forget…

1:07:15Vadim PerelmanOf course

1:07:15Jawad Mir... About everything else.

1:07:15Vadim PerelmanOf c… it's about the people, of course.

1:07:17Jawad MirYeah.

1:07:17Vadim PerelmanThat's why we shot it so simply. I mean, you know, it was, it was... There was no like, "Look at us. Look how fucking cool we are."

1:07:24Jawad MirYeah.

1:07:24Vadim Perelman"Look at, look at me, I'm Roger Deakins," you know? Like, and, "Look at me, I'm Vadim. We shot, like, hundreds of commercials that are pretty cool looking." It wasn't like that.

1:07:33Jawad MirGood.

1:07:33Vadim PerelmanNo, it was, it was, very much it's all about the actors, it's all about the performance, and you wanna be respectful of them.

1:07:40Jawad MirAnd their space.

1:07:41Vadim PerelmanYou don't go, "Look at me, look at me." You don't wanna go like, "Look what I can do." Like, you know, like the idiots directors that I think, you know?

1:07:50Jawad MirI…

1:07:50Vadim PerelmanThe, "Look how fucking cool, look how cool, this bullet stops mid-flight." Or like, "Oh, da," you know. And then they look up, and then they look down, and then it's like, "I'm from... I'm under the table shooting the scene." You know, it's so off. What are you... You know? That's, that's what's wrong with movies. That's what makes them disposable now. 'Cause it's not about the story, it's not about the emotion anymore.

1:08:12Jawad MirYeah.

1:08:12Vadim PerelmanIt's about, it's about the…

1:08:14Jawad MirVisual

1:08:14Vadim Perelman... Remember that, you're Canadian, you remember blow it up real good, right? When they had that SCTV

1:08:21Jawad MirYes

1:08:21Vadim Perelman... SCTV critics, and they go, "Blow it up real good." Yeah.

1:08:25Jawad MirYeah.

1:08:25Vadim PerelmanThat one blow it up real good.

1:08:27Jawad MirNo, it's, it's true, because now it's, like, all, you know…

1:08:31Vadim PerelmanRight

1:08:31Jawad Mir... Effects and... Story has become secondary, and whenever, like, people like Martin Scorsese or Francis Ford Coppola or Steven Spielberg, or, you know, like the legends that we grew up on, they talk about…

1:08:44Vadim PerelmanYeah

1:08:44Jawad Mir... Again, I'm not attacking superhero films, but I don't watch superhero movies at all. I have no interest in them.

1:08:48Vadim PerelmanI don't either.

1:08:49Jawad MirDo you... Do you... Are the only ones…

1:08:50Vadim PerelmanI don't even know. I have no idea what, like, who these people are.

1:08:53Jawad MirNeither do I.

1:08:54Vadim PerelmanBut, yeah. Yeah.

1:08:55Jawad MirIf you wanna call Christopher Nolan movies superhero movies, I don't. I... That's the only one that I've watched, and I saw The Ten Commandments.

1:09:02Vadim PerelmanThat's different. That's different.

1:09:02Jawad MirYeah. Very different.

1:09:03Vadim PerelmanChris… Christopher is a, Christopher is an auteur.

1:09:06Jawad MirYeah.

1:09:06Vadim PerelmanHe's, he's a filmmaker. He's not a…

1:09:08Jawad MirFor sure

1:09:08Vadim Perelman... Fucking sausage factory guy. Yeah.

1:09:11Jawad MirYeah.

1:09:11Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:09:11Jawad MirSo… ... But it's just the market has just become s… so saturated now. I don't even watch anything that comes out, unless it's, like, a miniseries or something like that.

1:09:21Vadim PerelmanYeah, I like the stuff. Some of the TV is good. Yeah.

1:09:25Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

1:09:26Vadim PerelmanSome of the series is good.

1:09:28Jawad MirPost-production, you worked with, Lisa Zeno, right? Is that her name?

1:09:32Vadim PerelmanYep., huh. Trigen.

1:09:35Jawad MirHow involved were you in that? Like, were you physically with the…

1:09:40Vadim PerelmanWell, I was an, I was an editor.

1:09:42Jawad MirRight. Okay. You were the…

1:09:43Vadim PerelmanBefore I, before I became even a director of commercials…

1:09:46Jawad MirYeah

1:09:46Vadim Perelman... And then I edited a lot.

1:09:48Jawad MirYeah.

1:09:48Vadim PerelmanAnd I'm a pretty good editor, you know. Not so much narrative, you know, more like music video and stuff like that back then.

1:09:55Jawad MirSure.

1:09:56Vadim PerelmanSo yeah, a lot. A lot.

1:10:00Jawad MirYeah.

1:10:01Vadim PerelmanA lot. So…

1:10:02Jawad MirAnd how... Sorry, go on

1:10:04Vadim Perelman... But she did, she did 95% of the work.

1:10:08Jawad MirYeah.

1:10:08Vadim PerelmanI just, I would take it home and, you know…

1:10:12Jawad MirAssemble it and everything, and…

1:10:14Vadim PerelmanNo, just to try different things and bring it back, and she'd just take the time code and put it in as a direct... Hands on. That was hands on. It's…

1:10:24Jawad MirWorking with…

1:10:24Vadim PerelmanPersian Lessons, the film, the film you'll see, Persian Lessons, I cut the whole thing. She did the first pass, the editor, just assemble, and then I fine cut it.

1:10:35Jawad MirOkay.

1:10:35Vadim PerelmanIn film. Here, where I'm sitting right here, on the edit room.

1:10:40Jawad MirAnd in terms of... Like, I started off as a editor and then cameraman myself, and I know... And I've edited feature docs for other people, but I've done mine as well, and with an editor. But at the same time, what do you... What was, like... When you're, when you're editing, and I know it's a very great time, but also it can be, like, very much stressful, right? Like, when you're two different minds and the editor's giving the work.

1:11:06Vadim PerelmanIt's a beautiful time.

1:11:07Jawad MirYeah.

1:11:07Vadim PerelmanIt's a beautiful time. I'll tell you why.

1:11:09Jawad MirAnd you're, you're basically putting a life together, in my view, right? It's a…

1:11:14Vadim PerelmanI'll tell, I'll tell you what you're doing, in a very cool, way, I hope. Especially when you're a writer as well, and when you're a director and editor. When you're wearing all those hats. You know, when you write something on the script, it's limitless. It's, it's open. You know, it's fuck… it's perfect, right?

1:11:37Jawad MirYeah.

1:11:37Vadim PerelmanHopefully. Like, you see the thing perfectly, right? When you're filming it, even with Roger Deakins, even with those actors, even with everybody, there's always a disappointment. There's always... There's sometimes pleasant, sometimes pleasant surprises, where you go, "Oh, wow, I didn't know this would turn out this good." You know, or, "I didn't know the light would hit just right here. I didn't know he would give me..." give, not me. That's a mistake. "He would, he would bring this moment, as an actor to this emotion and this things." There's always pleasant surprise. But most of it is disappointments. Most of it is like, "Oh, fuck, we didn't have enough time to do that." And then, "Fuck, I wish I did it from this angle," and, "Wish..." You know, "I wish I..." You know, "I wish I held onto this longer," blah. "I wish it didn't rain. I wish it rained." You know, et cetera, et cetera.

1:12:28Jawad MirYeah.

1:12:28Vadim PerelmanYou know? And so that's where from that 100% that it was when you, when you said, "Fade out," at the end of the script, you know, that's when it became hopefully somewhere in the 90s, but quite often somewhere, like, in the high 80s. If you had to put a number to it as far as quality. And the edit process is getting it back up to 100. When you sit there and you try and get it back up to 100 using the pleasant surprises, the f… the faults, and the original stuff that's same as the script to get it back up there. Somewhere to the high 90s, hopefully. Never 100, but, you know, somewhere there. And sometimes 100. Sometimes you think, "Oh, this has fucking now become even worse. It's now 70," you know?

1:13:24Jawad MirYeah.

1:13:24Vadim PerelmanAt the end of the edit, and then you see it with an audience going, "Oh, no, it actually works. It actually, you know, wow, I was, I was an idiot to think so. It actually, like, I, they actually feel it." And you go, "Okay, 95." You know? Whatever. That's kind of my mind.

1:13:41Jawad MirNo, it's, it's true that you mention that, because there are moments... So for my two films that I finished simultaneously, we're doing screenings everywhere all over the world, and every time I go and sit and watch this with the audience, and then they react and they ask question, it's always the things that I felt, "Oh my God, you know, this was, this was gonna have an impact on people," those moments never do. And it's always the ones that I never thought in my wildest dreams…... Would have an impact, they do. So it's amazing how the audience is a psyche group.

1:14:13Vadim PerelmanWell, no, this is, this is, I'm, I'm afraid to say, this is a product of your talent. For you to become better and to be more talented, you've gotta see the shit beforehand. You've gotta feel the shit beforehand.

1:14:27Jawad MirYeah.

1:14:27Vadim PerelmanAnd never make that mistake. That's, that's, that's reaching your personal best, is when you can go, "I can feel it, therefore, I know how to make them feel it."

1:14:38Jawad MirYeah.

1:14:39Vadim PerelmanDo you know what I mean?

1:14:40Jawad MirNo, I know.

1:14:40Vadim PerelmanAnd then you're, and then you're sure. You're sure, "Oh, this'll make them..." Like, I'm cutting, w… when I'm cutting the final scene in Persian Lessons, you know, I'm sitting there cutting it. I have tears in my eyes.

1:14:52Jawad MirYeah.

1:14:52Vadim PerelmanEven though I've seen it, I fucking, I know every goddamn, you know, inch of this thing. You know, I have tears in my eyes and I go, "This, if it fucking still works on me, it's gonna work on them." So I know it's gonna work.

1:15:05Jawad MirNo, you're, you're, you're right. And the same thing.

1:15:07Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:15:07Jawad MirLike, you know, when you're cutting an emotional scene or the ending, and it's emotional, and you're crying, but then sometimes you're wondering, have I become so close to... Like, do you ever feel that it's, you've become so close to it to…

1:15:19Vadim PerelmanOh, of course. Of course. But if it can, if the emotion of the scene can cut through that to you, which happens to me, you know, often, not because I love it so much or love my work so much.

1:15:32Jawad MirNo, I know.

1:15:32Vadim PerelmanIt's not about that at all. You know? But more, like, you know, holy fuck, it like, it affects me still to this day. Like, that one note when it hits, and the way he raises his eyes, still, I still get that jolt. I said, "Then of course it's gonna work on the audience. That's not, you know, you know, dulled by repetition of this thing." And that's, and that's, that's what I always... And that's, that's your fucking, that's your talent. That means you haven't reached the talent yet. If the audience, you always have surprises from the audience, but if you, if you know that this should work, this better work with the audience. Otherwise, you know, otherwise you're just shooting in the dark. You know?

1:16:14Jawad MirGot you.

1:16:15Vadim PerelmanTrying to... Do you know what I mean?

1:16:17Jawad MirYeah.

1:16:17Vadim PerelmanYou gotta be, you gotta be a little more, little more controlled with it, and saying, "I know this'll work."

1:16:22Jawad MirGot it.

1:16:23Vadim PerelmanAnd then have it confirmed, you know, there.

1:16:27Jawad MirNo, that's, that's, that's a great advice. I appreciate that.

1:16:30Vadim PerelmanI've had, I've had, with my latest film, I didn't, it's a, it's a Holocaust movie. It takes place in a concentration camp. And the audience laughed probably half the film. In Berlin. It was my first, like, public showing in this giant fucking Berlin palace, and they laughed. Germans.

1:16:52Jawad MirWow.

1:16:52Vadim PerelmanIt was hilarious. They laughed at this poor Jews fucking, you know? And everything. I went, "Oh, my God, what have I done? I'm fucking..." You know? I completely missed the thing. And then the lights came on, and I saw the tears in their eyes, and the 15-minute ovation and all that, and I went, "Oh, okay. Well, it's good. Yeah, I meant for them to laugh." You know? Yeah. "Oh, yeah, it was all planned out." Yeah.

1:17:25Jawad MirYeah.

1:17:25Vadim PerelmanYou'll see what I mean when you see the film.

1:17:26Jawad MirNo, I…

1:17:27Vadim PerelmanIt's just…

1:17:28Jawad Mir... I'm looking forward to, I'm looking forward…

1:17:30Vadim PerelmanYeah

1:17:30Jawad Mir... To seeing your film. What would, just couple of more questions, and then... What would, what advice would you give to people who are watching it, who are either trying to break into the film industry or s… still in it and, you know, just kind of going through the struggles like all, we all do?

1:17:53Vadim PerelmanAdvice, to what end?

1:17:56Jawad MirJust personally, like what…

1:17:57Vadim PerelmanRemember, do you remember that great line? I think, I can't remember who it was. I think it was Bette Davis or, like, one of those, like, sharp-tongued old actresses, and they said, "What advice do you have for a starlet coming to Hollywood?" And she goes, "Always take Fountain." Which is like the street for traffic. When you come to Hollywood, it's better to take Fountain than, Santa Monica or Wilshire.

1:18:22Jawad MirGot it.

1:18:23Vadim PerelmanSo, no, but, no, not got it. I'm not, I'm not sliding off the question, but I'm just... More specifically, to become a director. To what? To be able to what? W… Advice to what end?

1:18:35Jawad MirWell, to be, to…

1:18:35Vadim PerelmanTo what end?

1:18:37Jawad MirTo an, to an end, like, whether it's screenwriting, it's not generalizing, but just I f… I feel that whether you're a sound, like a boom person, or a cinematographer, or an editor, the struggle is all the same, right? Like, you're, you're gonna get knocked down, you're gonna get pushed down, you're gonna get rejected thousands…

1:18:54Vadim PerelmanWell, it's like every job. Yeah.

1:18:55Jawad MirPardon me?

1:18:56Vadim PerelmanIt's every job. I mean, it's, it's, you know, every career that you choose, you know, you have a, you have an upward path. You have, you need to get in… unless you're entering a family business or something like that. And then, and then you need to, need to prove yourself, you know?

1:19:13Jawad MirNo, y… y… you're right. But, like, in terms of, like, okay, if you, if you compare it to, like, a 9:00 to 5:00 job, there is that sense of security, right? Like, you have, okay. But are you happy? Probably not. So a lot of us, like, people in arts, or even if you start your own business, nothing... It has nothing to do with entertainment, you know…

1:19:29Vadim PerelmanSame thing

1:19:29Jawad Mir... You're gonna, you're, you're gonna, you're gonna have tough days. You're gonna have tough years maybe. And how do you overcome that?

1:19:36Vadim PerelmanI've had nothing but tough years. Yeah.

1:19:39Jawad MirWe all do, right? And it never ends. Even if you're, like, someone like Spielberg or Scorsese, you will struggle. It just never ends. So, and people like Spielberg or people like yourself or Scorsese, you know, they've kind of got adapted to that thing. That's just the lifestyle. But people who are not, and they're not used to that, no matter what it is, like, how do you, how do you feel, I mean, they should overcome that? Just keep trying?

1:20:03Vadim PerelmanOkay, I'll tell you what the difference is between Spielberg, Scorsese, me to a certain extent, not quite as much as those guys obviously, but, you know, is that we have proven to ourselves at one point with results at some point that we're good, okay? Or that we can sometimes be good or what… whatever it is, right?

1:20:26Jawad MirYeah.

1:20:27Vadim PerelmanWe have proven that to ourselves. You as a beginner, you have not proven that yet. So what I suggest in answer to your question is that you blindly believe in that before you, before you have the actual results. And when you blindly, like I did, I did that. A… and you blindly believe, you fool yourself, and if you can fool yourself really well, you can fool the others. You know? They'll, they'll think, "Oh, this k… kid is fucking..." I left Canada, to tell you a great example, 'cause I was always the same, like I said, really pushy, really, you know, always, you know, believing in myself blindly. And then later at night by myself not believing in myself at all, of course. But, you know, that's where... But the front was that I believed in…

1:21:12Jawad MirYeah

1:21:12Vadim Perelman... Myself tremendously. In Canada, they didn't like that shit. In Toronto actually.

1:21:19Jawad MirOh, yeah.

1:21:19Vadim PerelmanThey don't like that shit at all. They, "Who is this cocky fucking..." You know?

1:21:24Jawad MirI agree.

1:21:24Vadim Perelman"Who is this cocky... Who do you think you are?" It's that British almost a caste system.

1:21:29Jawad MirYeah.

1:21:29Vadim PerelmanYou know, where you have this, social system where you have the, "You get in line, boy." You know, look at all these, like, you know, people. You get in line, and you work your way up, and you know, you fucking kiss ass, and you, and you work hard and da, right? The same person, in 1990 I came to America, came to LA, same methods of trying to make it, quote, unquote, right? And they went, "Who is this self-confident kid?" You know what I mean? The cocky…

1:22:01Jawad MirYeah

1:22:01Vadim Perelman... Just from a negative, cocky just became a self-confident kid, and they'll give you a chance. That's the States. They'll give... They'll go, "Prove it. Prove it." My first commercial, they gave me a chance. I don't know, my first film, they gave me a chance. The writer gave me a chance. DreamWorks gave me a chance. You know, Roger gave me a chance by signing on to the film. The actors, you know, they gave me a chance, you know. And but then you have to prove it, otherwise you're fucked. Nobody will ever give you a chance again.

1:22:31Jawad MirYou are 100% right because, and I agree with you about that thing about Canada and US, is this is, this is not even in the film business, it's just in general. You know?

1:22:40Vadim PerelmanIn general, yeah. Yeah.

1:22:41Jawad MirThere are just way many opportunities in the US, and people believe in you. Even in my,.. So the film that I talked to you about, Citizen Amorya, aside from that I did this, another film called In Search of My Sister, which is about a Uyghur American activist whose sister goes missing in Chinese concentration camp, and the person who actually believed in me was an American.

1:23:03Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:23:03Jawad MirAnd he backed me up, and he... And Jeffrey Katzenberg said this really well, and I absolutely made that my motto: If you don't believe in yourself as to what you're able to achieve, how the hell are you gonna convince anybody else that you can?

1:23:20Vadim PerelmanThat's what I just said. That's what I...

1:23:22Jawad MirNo, you're right. You're right. You're right.

1:23:23Vadim PerelmanThe answer to your question was you have to blindly believe in it.

1:23:25Jawad MirThat was not for…

1:23:26Vadim PerelmanEven as a fool

1:23:26Jawad Mir... That was not for me. I was, I was just asking for the audience.

1:23:29Vadim PerelmanEven if you seem like a fool, even if you seem like a fool.

1:23:32Jawad MirYeah.

1:23:33Vadim PerelmanYou know, it's not bragging if you can prove it.

1:23:36Jawad Mir100%.

1:23:36Vadim PerelmanIf you can prove you can do it's not bragging.

1:23:39Jawad Mir100%.

1:23:40Vadim PerelmanIt's not saying, "Watch me fucking jump up three feet, you know, grab that branch up there." People go, "Oh, come on. It's a branch." And suddenly you do it, and you go, "Not bragging anymore," right?

1:23:52Jawad MirYeah. And that's what it is. Like, when you have something to back yourself up. I, when I asked you that question, I was just asking anybody who is, like, you know, there's a lot of young people who are trying to get into the film business and other stuff, and it's very, sometimes it can be discouraging. But I, my whole theory with that is if you really want something, you are gonna go through mud. You're gonna go through garbage. You're gonna have to…

1:24:15Vadim PerelmanPretend you're not afraid

1:24:18Jawad Mir... But people do though. That's the thing. That's, that's the difference between people who are super successful in this world and people who are not, the fear factor.

1:24:26Vadim PerelmanExactly.

1:24:27Jawad MirThat's it.

1:24:27Vadim PerelmanIt's the difference in Elon Musk and a million other people…

1:24:31Jawad MirYeah

1:24:31Vadim Perelman... You know, who were afraid to do their thing.

1:24:33Jawad MirAnd it's not like they were born into some kind of, you know…

1:24:36Vadim PerelmanSteve Jobs and a million other people that, you know?

1:24:39Jawad MirYeah.

1:24:39Vadim PerelmanPretend you're not afraid.

1:24:41Jawad MirThat's all it is.

1:24:42Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:24:42Jawad MirNo, that's, that's great, man. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you…

1:24:47Vadim PerelmanThank you

1:24:47Jawad Mir... For being honest and, blunt. And, I will,.. So should I send, any of the links to your agents or

1:24:56Vadim PerelmanNo, send, put them right here in the chat. Or you know what? I will give you my email.

1:25:02Jawad MirSure. That'd be lovely.

1:25:02Vadim PerelmanJust, email is very simple, vadimperelman@gmail. You can cut that part out of the podcast.

1:25:10Jawad MirYeah, of course. Of course. I will. Just give me one second. God.

1:25:19Vadim PerelmanIt's my first name and last name in Gmail.

1:25:22Jawad MirP-E-R-E-L… I mean, I just wanna make sure I got that right. Okay.

1:25:26Vadim PerelmanYou better.

1:25:28Jawad MirYeah. And, you said, are you in still in touch with, Gore or Michael at all?

1:25:34Vadim PerelmanNo.

1:25:35Jawad MirNo, you're not. And how about Ben?

1:25:38Vadim PerelmanYeah. Ben, still in touch. Yeah.

1:25:42Jawad MirI… I'm just putting it out there, and I think it can, it can work if you feel comfortable. We reached out to Jennifer and Ben's, agents as well. We haven't heard back. I don't know what the protocol is for that, if that's something that if you feel com…

1:25:56Vadim PerelmanNo to the agents. No, I'm not gonna ask them for you.

1:26:00Jawad MirAll right, no problem.

1:26:01Vadim PerelmanYeah, no, okay.

1:26:03Jawad MirHey, I tried.

1:26:05Vadim PerelmanYeah, it's fine. Of course. No problem.

1:26:08Jawad MirGreat. I will send that over to you in a little bit, and then, we'll keep you posted about the

1:26:14Vadim PerelmanOh yeah. What you could do is you could tell, you could tell them through the agents, if you have another conversation, you could say, "Vadim really enjoyed it and, recommends it to a certain extent." you can say that.

1:26:25Jawad MirI will do that then. Fantastic.

1:26:27Vadim PerelmanJennifer, I haven't stayed in touch at all with, but, Ben…

1:26:30Jawad MirOh, Ben is, Ben…

1:26:31Vadim PerelmanBen, yes

1:26:31Jawad Mir... Ben is good enough too. Where are you in Vancouver? In Surrey, Burnaby, or...?

1:26:36Vadim PerelmanNo. Surrey?

1:26:38Jawad MirI'm joking, man.

1:26:39Vadim PerelmanNo. I'm, I'm in Gastown. I'm right in the center of it all.

1:26:43Jawad MirIs that near Whistler area, or no?

1:26:45Vadim PerelmanNo, it's downtown. It's

1:26:47Jawad MirOh, downtown

1:26:47Vadim Perelman... The old, the old area where the clock is.

1:26:50Jawad MirOkay. Okay. Okay. Great, man. Perfect.

1:26:55Vadim PerelmanOkay, so send me your links, and I'll respond to that with the link to the film, and you get to see.

1:26:59Jawad MirI will.

1:27:00Vadim PerelmanBut then you better write me your opinion.

1:27:03Jawad MirWhat was that?

1:27:04Vadim PerelmanYou better write me your thoughts on the film.

1:27:07Jawad MirI will.

1:27:07Vadim PerelmanThe Persian lesson that I listened.

1:27:08Jawad MirAnd I, and I expect, and I expect the same from you.

1:27:13Vadim PerelmanThat's good. That's, like, fucking cocky. You're so cocky. All right. All right.

1:27:20Jawad MirAll right.

1:27:20Vadim PerelmanThanks, man.

1:27:20Jawad MirThank you so much. Take care.

1:27:21Vadim PerelmanBye-bye.

1:27:22Jawad MirBye-bye.

1:27:23Vadim PerelmanYeah.

1:27:25Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.