'Jurassic Park', Creature FX Supervisor, John Rosengrant

0:08Jawad MirNice to see you.

0:09John RosengrantGood to see you.

0:12Jawad MirYou know, just right off the bat, I'm just gonna say, I knew you had worked on Jurassic Park films, but then after looking more into your profile, I mean, the stuff that you have done is pretty much everything most people grew up with, you know? Aliens, Terminator, Edward Scissorhand, Small Soldiers, Sixth Sense. I mean, incredible resume. So thank you so much for creating such wonderful, memorable films as your talent…

0:42John RosengrantOh Thank you very much.

0:46Jawad MirWhere are you based? In LA?

0:50John RosengrantNo, I've just recently retired. I, after f…

0:54Jawad MirOh, my God.

0:54John RosengrantYeah, after 40 years, I thought, you know, I've, I've done it all, and I finished up with, four seasons of The Mandalorian or three seasons of The Mandalorian and one of Book of Boba Fett, and I don't know, it felt like a good bookend way to finish and it was just…

1:15Jawad MirYeah

1:15John Rosengrant... Time after 40 years, you know?

1:18Jawad MirYeah, no, I mean, you know, if you get that feeling, where you're becoming complacent, you know, and you've done everything, then the best time is to hang the, hang the boots.

1:28John RosengrantYeah. I felt like I was starting to repeat myself a little bit, you know? Y… you know, when directors cite your movies and say, "Can you, have you ever done an effect like this?" And you go, "Yeah, that's the one I did." You know that you've sort of done it all.

1:48Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, it's, it's great to have you. I'm really looking forward to chatting with you. But before I get into anything else, I would love to know your journey into the industry and into the, effects work that you do, just from, you know, from the top, just we have an hour so…

2:08John RosengrantWell, I, you know, always wanted to do this since I was five years old. I was in… into monsters and dinosaurs and, you know, I remember going to the New York, Natural History Museum and seeing the dinosaur exhibits there and, went to the World's Fair. I just dated myself. Saw that e… exhibit with the animatronic dinosaurs where I think you got in the T-bird or the Mustang, you know, you went back in time, and I don't know. And I was always a fan of the horror movies and I w… watched, you know, Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein, and Frankenstein and Dracula, and King Kong, and all those things and they were big deal to me and I always wanted to make monsters or creatures. And then, we moved from the East Coast, moved down to Louisiana and, you know, people wanted to be helpful, but they really weren't.

3:11John RosengrantThey was like, "Well, I think people do that already out in California," and, so I don't know how you're gonna get into that. So one day, I just decided to get into that. So I packed up, moved out to California with, you know, like 1,000 bucks and thought I would get into the industry a lot easier than it actually happened. But, you know, worked a bunch of odd jobs and, got a job at Gelson's Supermarket and I worked part-time so I would have time to go out and meet people and do things. And I got a meeting with Stan Winston and, my first meeting with him, he sort of looked at my book and flipped through it and handed it back to me, and it was about that quick. And, he said, "Ah, reminds me of me when I was starting out. Well, have a look around." So I stayed there for two hours, looked at every square inch of that shop and the sculptures there and just molds and everything, and just sort of absorbing it in.

4:23John RosengrantAnd, you know, it just really made me wanna get into that. So I would bug Stan all the time and, I ended up going over there working for free on a video, a rock video. Styx video to be, precise. And I don't know. And I never got hired right away, but about a year later after I did get a job at Makeup Effects Lab, which was my first movie, The Destruction Of, Metalstorm: The Destruction of Jared-Syn in 3D. So that was my start. But what was amazing about that is I was getting paid to work in film and, you know, in a very small shop like that, you get to do everything. You know, you sculpt, you paint, you run foam, you, work on scenery, you work on props, you...

5:28John RosengrantSo it was a great education and, you know, th… thanks to those guys for hiring me. But l… a… and all the connections that you make are important because a lot of these same people ended up putting in a good word for me with Stan when he was trying to crew up for The Terminator. And, he goes, "Oh, I think I know that guy." You know? And so anyway, long story short, he ends up calling me to work on The Terminator. So I get hired and go there for about a month, and then The Terminator got put on hold. But luckily, Stan had other work going on. He was working on a TV show called Manimal, so we had to do some reshoots and then we did some stuff for some other episodes. And then kind of parlayed into some other little small stuff.

6:29John RosengrantAnd so I became one of Stan's guys, and then The Terminator came back, so then that was my first big movie to work on. And that was, that was my film school. It really was, 'cause you got James Cameron wrote, directed this thing for s… $6 million. And the story was Stan got the job because Dick Smith recommended him, because originally Jim had reached out to Dick Smith to do it, and Dick goes, "I don't do that kind of stuff. Stan Winston's really good at robots. He can do it." And, he had to tell Jim a few times, and then he took a meeting with him. And, then we met Jim, and he came in with all these drawings and paintings, and he really had this thing figured out. And I mean, that's... If you know Jim at all or if anyone really gets to know him, he can do anybody's job as good or better than you.

7:38John RosengrantSo, he was a great one to learn from because it was filmmaking 101, and we got to intimately really know him. And, you know, S… Stan was full of great ideas. And so that was a great learning experience which sort of launched a 25 care… year career for me with Stan. Never got laid off, never stopped working for him, and had the opportunity to work on all those great movies. And then after his untimely passing, we formed Legacy Effects and, you know, carrying on his legacy.

8:21Jawad MirPhenomenal. I mean, it's just so incredible that, you know, people in the world of film, with my background in film too, and I'll get to that later, is that we always think that, you know, we are going to get some work and it's gonna be so easy, but you really have to bust, you know…

8:42John RosengrantYeah

8:42Jawad Mir... Your time and your body and everything. And it's always that never giving up attitude that some people get it in 10 years, some people get it in two, whatever that is. And, you know, you kept at it. And I think the timing, you know, as they say, timing is everything along... But you only... Timing is only everything be… if you really work hard for that time. And…

9:04John RosengrantYeah

9:04Jawad Mir... You entered in it…

9:05John RosengrantYeah

9:05Jawad Mir... Exactly at that right time.

9:08John RosengrantIt was at the right time. I remember seeing the movie Alien in the movie theater. And it's like, "Wow, what am I doing?" 'Cause now I was watching this movie. It wasn't a B movie or, you know... It really, it had amazing performances in it, amazing creature work, the way it was shot. It was like, it really was an eye-opening thing for me, and it started to get the wheels turning that I need to get out to California. And so I got out there in '82, with that movie come out in '79. It took a few years, but it was, that was the impetus to really get me moving and get, you know, "You gotta do this." And my mother was very supportive. She always said to me, "What's the worst thing can happen? Is if you don't go out there and do it or try to do it, you'll never know whether or not it was a thing, and you'll, you'll never be satisfied.

10:19John RosengrantYou'll always have some job and think in the back of your mind, what if I did that," you know? So…

10:26Jawad MirThat's so true.

10:28John RosengrantYeah. So I thought, "You know, I'm single and I don't have a family. I'm not married, nothing. Let's just go do this. Go do this." You know, and there's some trying times when after I worked on Metalstorm, which was supposed to be a two-week gig and it ended up being four and a half months or four months. Then after that ended, it's like, "oh, now what?" You know, 'cause I didn't have the job at the grocery store anymore. And, you start picking up odd jobs. You do whatever you can to sort of extend your time till you get the next thing. And, you know, that was some, there were some times there when you're, you're starting to question your own sanity. What am I doing?

11:22Jawad MirNo, I mean, we always have those times. There's nothing wrong with that, but it moves us forward, right? It's just…

11:27John RosengrantIt does move us forward and it makes us stronger, and it makes you appreciative and grateful for when you do finally get there. And, yeah, I always look back and I am grateful for those opportunities. And I think you're, you're right in that you have to make your opportunities. Timing might be there. There's doors you can go through, but you gotta go through them. You've gotta, you gotta do it or else it's not gonna happen. No one's gonna hand it to you on a silver platter.

12:03Jawad MirYeah, 100%. You know, one of the things that your mom said is something that I live by, is that… It's not just in my film career, anything in life, whether it's relationships, work, whatever it is. Every s… decision that you want to make, you better make it thinking that in 40, 50 years when life is about to come to an end, I don't wanna think back and saying, "What if?" You know?

12:28John RosengrantNo.

12:29Jawad MirTry it. Even if you fail, at least you know you tried.

12:32John RosengrantRight.

12:33Jawad MirRegret is, regret is the worst thing, and people... You know, a lot of people I've, I've seen old people and their eyes, like how much regret they have, and it's the worst possible feeling in the world.

12:47John RosengrantI feel that. I don't have any regret, which is, a good thing. But I didn't want to have that, and I thought, "What's the worst thing that happened, is I fail miserably and come back home and know that, 'All right, that path wasn't for me'?" But that's not the case. And you do have to stick to it. A… and what, something I realized when I got to Los Angeles was a feeling... You know, growing up I was blessed with, you know, artistic talents and things and, you know, you're like the, one of the best artists in your high school or whatever. And then I went off to college and you realize when you're in a room with all the other artists, well, they're all there for the same reason you're there, 'cause they were the best in their high school or whatever. And it sort of makes you wanna up your game. You see other people's work. Well, the same thing happened to me when I got to Los Angeles. You realize, "Wow, the competition is, you know, exponentially.

13:51John RosengrantThey leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at." And I think, that sort of, I don't know if you wanna call it an ass-kicking or whatever, but it's a wake-up call…

14:03Jawad MirSure

14:04John Rosengrant... That is like, "Okay, I've still, I've got a lot to learn." And at that point in time I sort of decided the minute you stop learning and stop growing, you're, it's over. Because there is so much more to learn and to do, and you have to, you have to keep pursuing things and keep getting better at what your craft is. And, for me anyway, that's how I grow and continue. And you know, something that Stan, said, you know, after we worked on Jurassic Park, which is, you know, related to what we're about to talk about, was, you know, the onset of the digital and how, you know, it made some people feel like dinosaurs and ready to quit. And for Stan it was like, "No, we need to embrace this."

15:04John RosengrantIt's like if you look at, you know, when the synthesizer came around or digital music or whatever, did people stop playing the piano or guitar? No. They didn't. So there's a way to incorporate this into our tool set and m… make it part of what we do. And instead of being anti-digital, i… it was the mindset was to embrace it and see how it can help us. And I mean f… flash forward to The Mandalorian, all the stuff that we're doing with Baby Yoda, thank goodness for ILM's help removing all the rods and cables and all of that. It just frees you up to create more and to control that puppet, more hands-on, in a way that you couldn't do before.

16:09John RosengrantYou know, it reminds me of a funny story. It was a young director I was working with who asked me, "So in Aliens, which scenes were digital and which were practical?" And it's like, "Okay, well, none were digital." The only digital that was going on during Aliens I think was, what was it? Young Sherlock Holmes had just come out and there was some scene where, I don't even remember what it was, the stained glass comes to life or something. I don't quite remember it. It wasn't all that good, but you know, that was what was going on. But back on Aliens we had to do everything the hard way. And, that queen alien when she comes down out of the drop ship, I mean, it was a giant marionette basically. And, Jim had to photograph it and we're spray painting out the wires and he's lighting it so you hide all of that.

17:15John RosengrantBut you learned how to do it the hard way so that when you get the digital help it, you've got that background of that old school magic trick or a marionette, and you combine it with some digital technology and things that you can do and you create something, sort of a hybrid between. I think it was Jurassic Park III that we really started embracing some of that hybrid, technology where they added on a digital tail onto the Spinosaurus or... You know, so it opens up a new way of thinking.

17:55Jawad MirRight.

17:57John RosengrantInstead of being defeated by, you know, this other technology, trying to figure out how to make it work.

18:05Jawad MirIt's funny you mention that. You know, we're at that same stage now again with AI. I mean, with the strike and all that stuff that's going on. And not just even in that. Like, I'll give you an example. ChatGPT came out, what, maybe eight months ago now? Probably November, December, I remember. In a matter of two months, transcribing jobs literally pretty much disappeared.

18:33Jawad MirI mean, now there are so many AI tools that let you do that. They're not 100%. People, big companies will still use transcribing, but how do you adapt AI? Now, that's a big question. Like, you know, what you're saying is absolutely right too, because this has been going on from the beginning of mankind, like, you know, especially in the last 100 years.

18:52John RosengrantYeah.

18:53Jawad MirWhat if this happens? What if that happens? So we'll see how that goes. But going back to Aliens, one, I just, I saw it recently. I've been watching a lot of old films because I'm not crazy about what-what's coming out, you know…... In the last, 10 years. So I saw Alien, Aliens, Alien 3, The Covenant, and…

19:14John RosengrantOh, so you saw the whole, the whole thing.

19:17Jawad MirI saw the whole thing.

19:18John RosengrantYeah.

19:18Jawad MirWhat I loved about the first one was it was a very minimalistic approach by Ridley Scott by showing less of the alien.

19:27John RosengrantYeah.

19:27Jawad MirWhich worked, which was really great. Aliens, I didn't find Aliens scary. Aliens, I remember the first time I saw it, I was probably 15, 16. I was petrified by that movie, and had there been any kind of digital effects, I guarantee that wouldn't have that ef… it wouldn't have that same effect on me because, you know, just seeing the queen alien, the, and just the teeth, the detail, and everything in that film is just so incredibly done. And the finale scene when it actually comes down the elevator, I was watching it recently.

20:04Jawad MirI'm like, "Holy crap." You know, I never thought about it back then when I saw it from the technical standpoint, but now I sadly have to assess everything from a technical standpoint. Which is good and bad, but it was phenomenal. I mean, it, if, like you said, if it was anything digital in there, digital in there, it wouldn't have worked. It wouldn't have had the same kind of effect as it did on people.

20:27John RosengrantYeah. I mean, the first movie's like a haunted house movie I like, liken it to. You know, you're trapped on this ship, and this thing that you're not really seeing is slowly killing everybody in a most horrible way. And Aliens is like a war movie, you know? And, yeah, the, that scene where that smart gun is in the corridor, you know, as a sentinel, and it goes off after it's shot to pieces, who knows how many of them, but they're still coming, and then the counter goes down to zero and then it's done. That I found scarier than, you know, even showing the aliens or whatever. 'Cause it's the idea of, oh my God, what else is out there? But yeah, they're two different movies, and I think that's why Aliens worked as a sequel. It wasn't trying to copy the first one.

21:21Jawad MirYeah.

21:22John RosengrantIt took the same story and just grew it and went off in its own direction, which, was neat. But I'm sure Jim would use digital today if he was making that movie. But at the time, I think it was, it was a really good use of the animatronics and the things that we did, and it was shot really well. And, you know, part of that, is Stan because Stan's always wanted to be a director and did a lot of second unit directing, and he understood, and that's something that I always try to do with the directors that I work with, is understand the asset that we're creating for you, its strengths and its weaknesses, and let's play to its strengths, not its weaknesses. Because if you ask it to do something it can't do, it's gonna fail, but this is what it does and this is what it does really well.

22:24John RosengrantAnd that's something that I did, when we started to do The Mandalorian series, was put together that, little how to, or my version of how to shoot the, you know, I call it Baby Yoda, it's Grogu, but the world affectionately calls it Baby Yoda. But, you know, show all its warts and show what it does really well, but also show its negatives so that way, collectively, we can avoid that and play to its strengths. And I think, I think that was a good lesson to learn, and I think that was an outgrowth of the Stan and Jim Cameron movies that I worked on. And, sorry. Got all these messages popping in.

23:20Jawad MirNo, you're okay. You know, let's, let's talk about Jurassic Park. You know, J… Jurassic Park came out in 1993. The Abyss came out in '87, which was, I mean, the first of its kind, you know, with the liquid, Mary Steenburgen, and then T2 came out. I mean, that had some great animatronics, following up with T1. But Jurassic Park, I mean, that revolutionized the film industry, although I would still give a lot of credit to T2 and Abyss for that.

23:53Jawad MirBut still, you know, from the combination of animatronics to CGI and Spielberg usage of heavy animatronics in, like, non-full shots, like, you know, whether it's the feet or half body and that worked really well, again, just like Aliens in sort of terrorizing the audience. How did you get on board? Obviously, you came with Stan Winston team, but what was the process of working on that film from the get-go work instance because you said you loved dinosaurs?

24:26John RosengrantWell, we were all very excited when we heard about it. We were finishing off Terminator 2 when we heard about it, and, we started doing concept work, you know, flushing things out before it was even really 100% go. I think, Steven contacted Stan, and they started a dialogue. And I think we got that job because of the queen alien, which was a fairly big character. It was maybe 12, 14 feet tall, and there was some hydraulics that we used, for the head to move it. And it was, it was an interesting, you know, technology that we were putting together for the queen. But I think that gave, Steven Spielberg some faith that we could do this with the, with the dinosaurs.

25:30John RosengrantAnd Stan being who Stan was, he goes, "I have no idea how I'm gonna do this, but I will." And, we did. And, so we, as a team, everyone that was working for Stan at the time, we were all very excited because, yes, for me, as a, as a kid growing up, was a big dinosaur fan, and so this opportunity. And we started to get some pages from Michael Crichton's book. This is how early on it was. There was no script…

26:04John Rosengrant... And his book wasn't even out at that point in time. We were... I don't know what they call those pages where the author is, still…

26:13Jawad MirRight

26:14John Rosengrant... Sort of work in progress. But I mean, it was well along. But s… so we're sort of reading parts of Michael Crichton's book, and Steven is sort of selecting which dinosaurs are going to be in the movie and what set pieces are going to, how that's gonna dovetail into the film. There's gonna be a T-Rex. There's gonna be a Velociraptor. And interesting s… story is once, that Deinonychus or, Velociraptor, which are a lot smaller animals than were depicted in the movie, but after the movie came out, they discovered the bones of one c… and which was dubbed the Utah Raptor 'cause that's where they found it, and which happened to be the same size as the one in the movie. So lesson learned is you really don't know anything about these dinosaurs or whatever.

27:14John RosengrantBut we were heavily influenced by a guy named Gregory Paul and his book on dinosaurs, and his sketches, and, Bob Bakker's information who they sort of used, as a character almost in, I think it was the second one, Lost World.

27:38John RosengrantBut, Jack Horner was brought on as a consultant, and he's a very famous paleontologist. So all these things were sort of lining up, and the excitement was building, and, Crash McCreery was doing sketches of these dinosaurs i… in the set pieces that we were hearing about from Steven Spielberg, so the concept art was being created. So it was all starting to fall into place, and excitement was building within, you know, our group. And you never feel like you have enough time, but this one was one where we sort of had enough time. Once we started working on it, and schedules start happening and things shifted, like the sick Triceratops was never supposed to shoot first, but that shot first in Hawaii. So it's like, okay, that's a game changer. And so y… you know, you shift once you start seeing a schedule, then priorities become real because up until that point we were just creating dinosaurs on sort of the hearsay of when they were gonna deliver.

29:02John RosengrantI'm sort of jumping all over the place here, but…

29:04Jawad MirThat's perfect. I love it.

29:05John RosengrantBut…

29:06Jawad MirI love it

29:06John Rosengrant... But in the early stages of this, when we first heard about it was very exciting. And, I think we all probably grew up in the same environment 'cause everybody that was working on these were big fans of dinosaurs. But the Gregory Paul and that information was important because what we wanted to do was create dinosaurs that no one had seen before, but were accurate. And, you know, the way they used to be done, and the bones were put together where they were dragging their tail, and, you know, the Gregory Paul stuff you realize, no, that tail is counterbalance, and they're walking the theropods, which is the T-Rex is part of that group. They're built a certain way. And anyway, so we took a deep dive into anatomy, studying birds, studying other reptiles, trying to figure out what these textures would be.

30:10John RosengrantSo as artists, that's the way w… we're looking at it. We're starting to get the story beats as how this stuff, is going to play in the movie and you realize this velociraptor or raptor as it got shortened to is a big deal. And there was going to be three components to this movie. There was going to be the animatronics, which we were carrying a lion's share of shots. And then there was going to be Phil Tippett was going to do go motion versions of these dinosaurs. And then there was going to be the visual effects component. What we didn't know is that Dennis Murrin and his group were really pushing forward this new CG technology, computer generated image technology. And so they were doing that all along.

31:14John RosengrantThe maquettes that we were creating were in scale for what Phil Tippett needed for his go motion. And then later it became also what ILM needed. So Stan Winston Studio created, designed and created all these dinosaurs. Obviously it was Steven Spielberg's blessing and sign off on what they would be. And all those models were sent to ILM and originally to Tippett's until Phil Tippett. I remember we were watching dailies very early on in the process. And they showed at the end of the dailies, they showed a little test footage of the T-Rex walking. And I had helped to sculpt that T-Rex and I had painted it. A guy, Bill Bassel and I had done the paint scheme of what this T-Rex was going to look like.

32:20John RosengrantAnd all of a sudden I see basically it looks like our sculpture and our paint job come walking out on the screen. And in a way we'd never seen before because it was with CGI and it was truly amazing. And so Dennis Murrin was there and, you know, we're going to incorporate this technology into the movie and all the producers and Steven and everyone was on board. And at that point, Phil Tippett was like, oh, well, I'm a dinosaur now, you know. And everyone was pretty stunned in seeing all of that footage. But they ended up doing, I think, the best thing they could have done, which was incorporating Phil Tippett into their world and helping them with their performance of all these dinosaurs. Because Phil really knows that stuff, hands down.

33:25John RosengrantAnd so I think And they really, with the CG, they really were breaking, obviously they broke new ground, but they were really trying to root it in a realism that I think got lost there after Jurassic Park for a while. There was a sense of weight and there was a sense of gravity and all those things were very important. And I think it holds up pretty well to this day because of those ground rules that they really followed. And I think it made for a stunning way to combine all of these different effects. I was in a raptor suit and I was in raptor legs and all these different ways to get the shot. And then there was full animatronic puppets.

34:26John RosengrantBut I remember Phil Tippett coming over and helping coach me on the movement of it all. And it was a really interesting film. Also, I remember one of the days when Steven Spielberg came to our shop and was talking about it all and how the sound and the smell of these animals. And that's something that really got into my head as an artist because you think about it and it's like they would be loud and they would be almost deafening to a human being to hear these things roar and the way this huge creature would move. And so, you know, it just opens up another angle to incorporate into what you're doing. Because beyond the look of it, you also have to create a performance because at the end of the day, the best special effects or the best artwork or the best puppet that you make, if it can't perform and help tell that story, it's lost.

35:44John RosengrantYour work is for naught. So we all were Screen Actors Guild performers as well because when we took these things to set, you make them act. They become a character. And that's something that Stan always said which stuck with me. He goes, we don't do special effects. We create characters. Nice. And I think about that. And it's like, you know, when you watched Frankenstein's monster, you were watching a character. He might have a makeup on and he might look like a creature or whatever. But at the end of the day, it's a character. The Queen Alien was a character. The Terminator was a character. And the movies are named after them, you know?

36:35Jawad MirYeah.

36:36John RosengrantIn Jurassic Park, I mean, these dinosaurs, they're important. They're characters.

36:44Jawad MirI mean, Jurassic Park, to this day I can say based on the stuff that I have seen in the last 30 years, even the most recent Jurassic World films, nothing comes close to the effects that were in that film from full CGI to animatronics to everything. I mean, there are some really close ones, but it just looks so much better even after 30 years, and it's been 30 years. You know, can you believe that? Like, it's been 30 years since Jurassic Park came out last…

37:16John RosengrantWow. Wow

37:17Jawad Mir... You know, it's, it's, it's a huge... And I didn't know this. I mean, I thought I was the only crazy nut because I, Jurassic Park inspired me to become a filmmaker. But there's a huge community online, and I learned about it after I started the podcast a year ago. There's people in Europe who have these giant, like, two to three feet textured made T-Rex, like, really authentic stuff. Some scenes from the original film, you know, Triceratops scene, the T-Rex attacking the first scene in the, when he, when he breaks the fences.

37:55Jawad MirIt's influenced so many people. So many people, and you realize it after a long time. I mean, I think, you know, Raiders and ET, Star Wars, people talk about, but I never knew Jurassic Park had that much of an impact on people's life, not just from a filmmaker standpoint, but just personal life.

38:14Jawad MirIt's amazing what you guys, what you guys have done. I mean, still living on, we had like the sixth Jurassic Park/World film.

38:21John RosengrantI know, right? Yeah. It keeps on, keeps on going. Yeah, I think it's, it's really struck a chord with people, that first movie, because it brought dinosaurs forward. You know, people always loved them growing up, but I think they finally got a glimpse of, hopefully, what made them real or realistic. And, really dr… drew people in, into it, you know? And, you know, credit Mr. Spielberg and his, filmmaking skills and,.. You know, watching him work, it was, it was neat. You know, I'd just come off of T2 and with James Cameron, and then, going into Jurassic Park with Steven Spielberg. I f… I felt not only... I had to kinda pinch myself, you know, 'cause it's like you're working with these…

39:22Jawad MirYeah, of course

39:23John Rosengrant... Auteurs and these, you know, cinema geniuses and, you know, here's your opportunity to collaborate with them. And Steven is very collaborative. If you have an idea, he wants to hear it, and he'll incorporate it if it's, if it's, if it's valid or... But he w… he was always very open, and, he was great to work with on that, on that film. And personally, for me, you know, working in that raptor suit, and I was leading up to that, I was rehearsing and doing all this, and then you get there on the day and then it's like, "Wait a minute, Steven Spielberg is directing me in this shot." You know? You do… there's, there's a few of those pinch yourself moments, but then you just sort of forget and just do what you do, and you don't get caught up in it, or at least I didn't.

40:30John RosengrantIt's like, "Well, I gotta perform. I gotta do this." And anytime a dinosaur, we brought one out, it was important that it succeed. And the T-Rex, that was, what a marvel that was, you know? It's like 18,000 pound animatronic that we really broke a lot of new ground on figuring out how that was gonna work. Incorporated a lot of, very talented people from the theme park industry into our fold and, you know, Stan's desire to create a character really, figured out how to control those big hydraulics. And in some ways, that big giant T-Rex was easier to control than some of the other puppets because that telemetry device where it was a one-on-one, if you grabbed its head and you moved it, the big one would move right in sync with it. And so we learned and grew from that experience quite a bit.

41:36John RosengrantBut it was, you know, pretty remarkable creation that T-Rex was. As big as it was, when it would go by it would pull about 1G of force. It felt like a bus driving by you.

41:54Jawad MirOh, wow.

41:54John RosengrantI mean, it was, it was something else. We would have to set up these lights and tape off the area and constantly remind people that this thing is, it's like 18,000 pounds. You can't just run in underneath it or whatever, you know? We all had to be, you know, safety awareness, and there was always talks about it. But it worked really well except for one time. And it's

42:28Jawad MirDo sh… do share

42:29John Rosengrant... Pretty famous story now, but…

42:32Jawad MirYeah

42:32John Rosengrant... Originally the T-Rex was not supposed to work in the rain. And, so that got changed. And I get why, because it's much more interesting seeing the rain and all of that. So we were there on set, and reason we couldn't get it wet, because the skin was made of foam rubber. Because at the time that was a... A… and really today, for something that big, the foam rubber is lighter than the silicone would be. There was a whole host of reasons why it was foam ru… rubber. But the problem with foam rubber in the rain is it absorbs water.

43:14Jawad MirYeah.

43:15John RosengrantAnd the thing was tuned to a certain weight. And so by the skin absorbing all this water, it created a different weight, and now the tune was off, so it would kind of shake and not cooperate. So that wasn't good. So we were there all night long with towels and heaters and, well, you know, drying out the skin. But we made it through, and then y… we figured out how to try to retune it so that it would operate when it was gaining water weight. And it was very complicated. But it worked out, and I think it's for the best in the film when you see it in the, in the rain. But it made for some trying moments. And what we didn't wanna do was to, you know, Steven had all this trouble at times, I guess with the shark.

44:16John RosengrantI wasn't there, so I don't know. But we didn't want, we didn't want our reputation to be, y… you know, this thing not working. So anyway, we got through it and figured it out. But it was, it was, quite an achievement, that T-Rex.

44:37Jawad MirNo, for sure. And I mean, I always wonder, there was this, I don't know if this is accurate. I read it I think in Hollywood Reporter or Variety. When the book was about to be published, I don't know if the publishing, house dramatically presented the story, that James Cameron was also looking to do Jurassic Park. So Spielberg apparently beat him to it by a few hours.

45:05Jawad MirBecause, and I wonder, I mean, I love Steven Spielberg's Jurassic Park. Like, I, it's like the holy grail. But I wonder what James Cameron would have done. It probably would've been, like, rated R, you know, kind of like…

45:15John RosengrantYeah.

45:16Jawad Mir... Aliens. But it would have been interesting to see. You know, it's just fascinating how two directors would have done the same film, and how would it come about. There should be some sort of a experiment with a film where you have two dir… you hire two directors, two group of, you know, collaborators, and let them go at it and see which one makes what kind of movie. Not necessarily better, but what kind of movie.

45:39John RosengrantRight. Yeah. I remember Jim coming over to our shop when we were doing concept work, and I had this book out. I can't remember the painter or the artist's name, but there was a T-Rex that he had painted really boldly with a red head on it.

45:57John RosengrantAnd I remember Jim looking down and pointing, and he goes, "That's what I would do for the T-Rex." And, so I don't know. Would've been a different movie, for sure. I never heard that story. Or, and I never,.. I mean, we were pretty close to both camps, but that's the kind of thing that y… you don't really hear about if it, if it is true, and it could very well be true.

46:22Jawad MirYeah.

46:22John RosengrantBut yeah, would've been a, would've been an interesting thing. It's sort of like when they filmed Dracula back in 1931. They, and during the daytime they did, the one version, and then at night they did the Spanish version of it. And they're on the same sets, same sort of costumes, everything. It looks very similar, but it's v… they're very different. So that would've been, something else.

46:51Jawad MirI gotta check that out, because I'm always fascinated, not just at a level of Spielberg, James Cameron. Even like a student level or intermediary or being a pro. You just give one story, same script to two different directors and you see what happen. I mean, that's itself is an interesting case study. Like, how do…

47:10John RosengrantYeah

47:10Jawad Mir... They're, they involve their, they input their own s… like their own s… personal elements into the film and their own vision. It's fascinating. I mean, I'm always curious about it. But you know, having said that, you worked on The Lost World.

47:27Jawad MirWhich was, which at the time I wasn't crazy about when it came out. Although I had a great theatrical experience. But looking back at it, I still think it's the second-best Jurassic Park film, hands down. And what was your role significantly working, like, what were some of the challenges that you had on that one?

47:51John RosengrantI think…

47:52Jawad MirYeah

47:53John Rosengrant... They're all very challenging movies, those Jurassic Parks, 'cause of the size and the scope of them. At least the first three were. Because it was still using a lot of, big animatronics in them. And in that movie you had the two T-Rexes now. So you had these two big creatures.

48:17Jawad MirYeah.

48:18John RosengrantAnd what we learned from the first movie, the first movie we built the T-Rex from head to toe, and tried to shoot the tail and the head in the shot, and it was really hard to get everything into the shot. So in the second one we, based on… The real practical shooting of it we did sort of from the haunches or maybe from right behind the rear leg forward of each T-Rex, and we put them on these giant carts, which Michael Lantieri and his group…

49:05John Rosengrant... Helped us with. We put down basically train track, and, so we could get some motion out of them. 'Cause the first one was on a motion base and it would just move in place. This way we would have all of the motion of the T-Rex, plus we could move it forward and back. And so, that was technically very challenging to get these big creatures…

49:36John Rosengrant... Both on a stage, and it was also really figuring out storyboards and placement, 'cause you couldn't just move the track.

49:45Jawad MirRight.

49:45John Rosengrant'Cause it got nailed down into the floor, driven into the floor of the stage. So it was sort of permanent. And so the set would move around the dinosaurs, if that makes any sense.

50:00Jawad MirYeah.

50:01John RosengrantIf it later in the movie it's supposed to be something else, it would still stay on that track and then they'd be… come in and do a set dress around it. So it was a lot of logistics, a lot of... And a lot of that fell to me to s… be there and figure, this out with interfacing with the other departments. You know, Michael Lantieri's group, the art department, you know, how they're gonna redress the set. And so you're not only on the schedule of when you're gonna shoot something, but you're also on a schedule for the redress, and sometimes we had to actually pick the dinosaur up and turn it around and have it going in a different direction, which involved cranes. And, quick funny story from the, from the first movie. And then you learn how to do all this stuff, but we had to have a crane come in and pick this dinosaur up and put it on a big giant, I guess low boy flatbed, whatever you wanna call it, to travel it to the studio.

51:08John RosengrantEven though it was a Universal film, we were shooting at Warner Brothers. And so this dinosaur, this huge dinosaur, we're starting at 3:00 in the morning, this crane is lifting and putting this dinosaur and we're gonna take it to Warner Brothers, and it had to leave, I can't remember what our deadline was, 4:30 in the morning or something. It needed to be dark and it needed to be before there was too much traffic, and it had to go on a certain route because of the size. You can't have all this... You know, it was covered with tarps, but still it would cause quite a stir in morning rush hour traffic in Los Angeles. Anyway, it gets to the studio, and I don't know how it happened, but the guard who was there didn't know this thing was coming. And so I get this phone call at some weird hour, you know?

52:10John Rosengrant"There's a dinosaur out there and I don't have any pre… paperwork for it." And all I could think to tell him was, "Well, if you want, I can call the producer, Kathy Kennedy or Spiel… Steven Spielberg, and tell them, or we can just make sure the dinosaur gets to where it's going." and I think he thought about it for a minute and he thought probably, "Well, number one, there's this huge dinosaur that's probably supposed to be here, and number two, I don't wanna wake these very important people up."

52:42Jawad MirYeah.

52:42John RosengrantSo anyway, that

52:45Jawad MirNo, that's funny for sure

52:46John Rosengrant... We used to have to, these big giant cranes lift these things up and move them around, and they'd have to come in and move them in the set and a lot of... I remember from that movie it was a lot of logistics.

53:01Jawad MirYeah.

53:02John RosengrantAnd…

53:02Jawad MirWhat?

53:04John RosengrantNo, go ahead. What were you gonna say?

53:05Jawad MirNo, go, please. I was just gonna say, well, because you had more dinosaurs too, right? Like…

53:09John RosengrantWe had more dinosaurs and, you know, it's, it's bigger. It's got more. Plus we went up to, Eureka and we shot in the forest there because the old forests that had that prime, mortal kinda look. And, you know, so those were logistics of getting certain dinosaurs up to Eureka. And we had little compys, which were tiny little dinosaurs, to giant T-Rexes, to Triceratops, to Gallimimus. We had all these…

53:46Jawad MirYeah

53:46John Rosengrant... These Pachycephalosaurus. A… and of course you have raptors, and they're shooting all over the place. You're in Eureka, you're on sound stages, you're out in fields and, a little bit north of, Santa Clarita. And it's logistics is what I remember the most about…

54:09Jawad MirYeah

54:09John Rosengrant... Lost World, was making all these things happen. And

54:14Jawad MirThe two scene… two scenes that stuck out for me to this day, from an animatronic standpoint, I mean, there was a full scene that was mixed with animatronics and CG, was the raptor scene at the end when he's trying to break the glass…

54:28John RosengrantRight

54:28Jawad Mir... Of the car when Jeff Goldblum is in there, Ian. And, the trailer scene

54:35John RosengrantYeah

54:35Jawad Mir... At the end here, which I don't know, have you seen Mission Impossible, the most recent one?

54:39John RosengrantNo, I have not.

54:41Jawad MirLet's just say there was a scene in there that I'm pretty sure was inspired by that film

54:45John RosengrantBy Jurassic Park with the glass and the breaking and…

54:48Jawad MirWell, not necessarily the glass, but there were some elements of it. But that glass scene, I mean, that was just one of the most craziest scenes ever.

54:56John RosengrantIt was.

54:57Jawad MirIt was just like y… no matter how many times I watch that, I m… I know what's gonna happen, but it's just done so well by Spielberg. The little elements of music kicking in and the glass cracking…

55:07John RosengrantYeah

55:08Jawad Mir... And

55:09John RosengrantYeah.

55:09Jawad MirSomething.

55:09John RosengrantNo, it's true. And for me, because I was actually puppeteering the head of the T-rex that grabs the guy and pulls him a… and then…

55:19Jawad MirYeah

55:20John Rosengrant... Throws him around, and it switches to CG at one point. But, we actually gra… I had to grab a stuntman and, I didn't sleep much that night before because, i… it's hard to e… explain this, but when you're watching, I would watch it in a monitor and we'd had to set stops on it so that it would reach in at a certain angle, grab him the same way every time. And then once it came up out of the car, then I was free to move him around. But it was, if I missed and didn't get it right, I could push the stuntman into the Jeep that he was in. So it was very stressful puppeteering because y… you had all the safety concerns, and we rehearsed it many times and we, I had it down, but still the lead up to that, you know it's all you and you've got to make sure that you do it exactly right.

56:29John RosengrantAnd, you know, you kinda, you don't forget a second of it. I can, I can relive it now like it was, yesterday. But it was very effective because you can actually see this dinosaur grabbing a guy and lifting him up and starting to move him, which I think is pretty effective.

56:55Jawad MirFor sure. I… it's funny you mention that, the stuntmen. I mean, now you look at Tom Cruise behind-the-scenes stuntman work, you know, the amount of effort that goes into... I wish... You know, Tom Cruise is a star. He's a producer. So I get it, like, you know, people wanna see that. But I've talked about this to other people on other podcasts that stuntmen in general, the people that no, have no clue who they are, like, they're just average people. They're not actors. I wish there was a category for them in the Oscars because they put their lives at risk…

57:25John RosengrantYeah

57:25Jawad Mir... More than anybody else. You know, not to take away from anybody else, but just the fact that they literally put their lives at risk.

57:32John RosengrantYeah.

57:32Jawad MirIt's phenomenal the type of work they do. And then obviously the pressure on other people like yourself. You know, there is that, you know, liability and legal and all that, but there's also that personal conscience thing. You know, what if I…

57:46John RosengrantIt is. It becomes personal. And you don't, you don't even think of that. You just get…

57:50Jawad MirYeah

57:50John Rosengrant... To know that person, and you wanna make sure this goes off, without a hitch, you know? And you're both doing it for the same reason, to create something on screen that's never been seen before and feels dangerous and real. And maybe that's something that seems to be missing from these films that, I grew up learning and being part of during the '80s, '90s, was there was a real sense of realism that was always there. And I think that's been... I think James Cameron said this one time, "You can only, suspend belief for just mere seconds before you lose an audience."

58:39John RosengrantAnd I think there's too much of that goes on in films now where they,.. It's just too unbelievable. You just don't buy it after a while. It's like…

58:51Jawad MirYeah. I know

58:52John Rosengrant... Instead of it just being a second or two of that unbelievability, like, "Oh, I guess that could happen," you're just bombarded with this fake reality…

59:04Jawad MirYeah

59:04John Rosengrant... That video game world that you're sort of... I don't know, just doesn't make it real.

59:12Jawad MirI… it's true. I mean, at the end of the day it's story, right? One of the films that you worked on, Sixth Sense, so, you know, my kids are now 13 and 11, so I am rewatching all the stuff that I've grown up with.

59:25John RosengrantYeah.

59:26Jawad MirYou know, they go, they go to cinemas, watch the stuff that comes out now, and they're watching old stuff. So we saw Sixth Sense together, and I... You know, you know what happens at the end, right? And I was really…

59:34John RosengrantSure

59:35Jawad Mir... It's, it's, I'm just sitting there. I'm also looking for clues because I haven't seen that in a long time. And when the movie ends, they were just completely blown away, right? And that to me is an achievement in storytelling more than visual effects. I mean, there was effects in there, but they were not heavy effects in it.

59:56John RosengrantRight.

59:57Jawad MirAnd that's what people are attracted to, no matter what age you're in. If you tell a great story and you put that as a priority over effects, which I think has happened a lot now, whether it's the studio's fault or the director's or the budget or whatever it is, it's just that effects have taken precedent over story. And that's, that's…

1:00:18John RosengrantI agree. I mean, that's how I was brought up was that story is number one because if you've got a great story and, yeah, performances are okay and the effects are okay, but a great story, it's going to... I mean, go back to all the movies that we would watch in the '40s and '50s. Not the greatest effects in these things, but the story was amazing.

1:00:46Jawad MirThe story, yeah.

1:00:47John RosengrantAnd they had us, you know… They really had us going there. But, I wish I could turn off that. I don't know how to do that.

1:00:58Jawad MirNo, I know, I know. I mean, there are a handful of director, like Christopher Nolan says that he hasn't been to use CGI in the new Oppenheimer, which I'm looking forward to see. You know, you look at Quentin Tarantino, you look at…

1:01:11Jawad Mir... Martin Scorsese, Spielberg.

1:01:13John RosengrantTrue, yeah.

1:01:13Jawad MirSpielberg is probably one of the few directors who uses the combination of practical versus visual effects very well. Like, it's very tastefully done. But yeah, no, I wish, I wish we're at that time now where things are gonna flip back to the old way, and I'm so thankful to Tom Cruise that he's trying to keep that practical effects alive and…

1:01:39Jawad Mir... Not many people who are doing that.

1:01:43John RosengrantNo, it becomes, easier to just... I worked on a film years ago and the director had no idea how he's gonna shoot something, and we're there. We're supposed to shoot it, and, "Eh, let's just do a plate." There's too much of that where it's just let's do a plate. I don't wanna think about it now. I'll think about it, you know, four months from now. And

1:02:07Jawad MirYeah. That attitude of we'll fix it in post is like…

1:02:10John RosengrantWe'll fix it in post, yeah. It's like that's expensive. A… and the thing is if you just figure it out, ahead of time and know what you're doing, even if it is gonna be done in post, at least know what you're doing. That way you can direct everybody in the plate shot. But you know, sometimes they just shoot an empty plate and then they'll put everything in later just 'cause they don't wanna think about it. And, you know, in their defense, that might be because they don't have the budget, they don't have the time. Who knows? Who knows? But it's a very different world that I just left in film, filmmaking. And I enjoyed The Mandalorian series with Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni and that group because they, it felt more old school, like they were trying to, you know, story first. And they followed all the rules that I was trained in, and grew up with.

1:03:17John RosengrantAnd, you know, I think there's some creative stuff going on there. But…

1:03:23Jawad MirYeah

1:03:24John Rosengrant... Some of these films, it just feels like it's all about the money. It's all about the studio.

1:03:35Jawad MirIt is, and it's, it's, it's, it sucks. It really does. But, and I think, you know, to kind of wrap it up with this thing, I feel that when you have access, and I remember this too because when I came into film, I came in the 2000s, so it was like, that time when film was transitioning into digital.

1:03:55Jawad MirSo I remember editing on eight millimeter and 16 millimeter on flatbed editing. Like, you know…

1:04:00John RosengrantOh, right. Right

1:04:00Jawad Mir... Kind of splicing it. And obviously then I transitioned into digital. But I feel, and I remember this even now, like, you know, when I'm working on digital because my budgets are not the way, you know, Hollywood Studio budgets are. When you are limited with resources, you are forced to come up with solutions.

1:04:19John RosengrantYou are.

1:04:20Jawad MirWhen you have everything at your fingertips, then your mind just becomes lazy. Not intentionally. It's just human…

1:04:27John RosengrantRight

1:04:27Jawad Mir... Nature. You just kind of relax and like, "Oh, we'll figure it out."

1:04:31John RosengrantTerminator one, 6 million bucks. Aliens, $19 million. You know, you figure out how you're gonna do all this stuff. And, I think that's, you know, you really think about your shots and how you're gonna create. And if you got a great story, that's most of the battle right there.

1:04:59Jawad MirYeah. Everything else falls into place. If you have a great story…

1:05:03John RosengrantIt does

1:05:03Jawad Mir... And if your collaborators, and if you don't have an ego on the set as a director, like you're collaborating with everybody and, you know… ... That works out fine.

1:05:12John RosengrantYeah. And, you know, 'cause every movie, every TV show, every commercial, everything that we've ever worked on, you always wanna bring your A game. I mean, that's how I was trained. That's how I was brought up is you put 110% in it because it's a reflection of you. And when people see that work, I mean I can't, you know, take credit for the whole film, but my portion of it is definitely on me. So you wanna deliver, you wanna make sure that's the best it can be.

1:05:47Jawad MirYeah. 100%. And you know, it's, it's phenomenal that the, again, like I said in the beginning, your resume, you must be really proud of yourself, which you should be if you're, if you don't think you are. 'Cause it has changed the game of the film industry for the longest time.

1:06:07John RosengrantOh.

1:06:07Jawad MirAnd, you know, people like Stan Winston, yourself, Phil Tippett, Dennis Muren, like all these people, I mean, it's, it's just amazing that story has taken always the first priority with all you folks. And I, you know, love everything that you have done. And one thing, one title I forgot is Predator. I still remember watching…

1:06:31Jawad Mir.. At the age of, at the age of nine, which I was not supposed to watch at the age of nine.

1:06:36John RosengrantYeah, that one…

1:06:37Jawad MirBut

1:06:37John Rosengrant... That one sort of came about in a, in an interesting way. It wasn't, I mean, there was a whole nother creature, there was a whole nother thing, and then in the 11th hour they came to Stan and said, "Can you help us?" 'Cause I think they were about to cut it into it was Arnold versus the Sandinistas in the jungle 'cause nothing was working.

1:06:57Jawad MirYeah.

1:06:57John RosengrantAnd then, We made The Predator in pretty short order. And it became a classic film, it really did. It was something else. That I'll never forget, you just knew you had to deliver. 'Cause when he takes that mask off, it better be cooler than the mask, or else you're in trouble.

1:07:23Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, I remember, I remember watching it the first time and that mask came off, and it was just... It was perfect. It was like nothing you have ever imagined.

1:07:34John RosengrantNo, it was, it was really…

1:07:36Jawad MirEven…

1:07:36John Rosengrant... Really groundbreaking, you know? A lot of talented people. I mean, I remember James Cameron actually, had some idea about those pinchers and he was talking to Stan on a plane. They were going to Japan, I think it was for a promotion for Aliens, if I remember right.

1:07:59Jawad MirYeah.

1:08:00John RosengrantAnd, some really talented, artists working. New guys that were brought in. Steve Wang and Matt Rose, they were super talented. And, I don't know. That was one of those magic things that just kinda all came together and, really worked, Predator.

1:08:22Jawad MirAbsolutely. Well, it's been a pleasure, John, talking to you. I would love to chat with you more, but maybe we can do more stuff down the road, if you have time. I would love to…

1:08:34John RosengrantAbsolutely

1:08:34Jawad Mir... But films like Small Soldiers, you know, T2. I mean, there's just so much. Really looking forward to more conversations hopefully.

1:08:43John RosengrantAll right. That sounds great. Thank you.

1:08:45Jawad MirGreat. Thank you so much.

1:08:46John RosengrantThanks for the opportunity. All right.

1:08:48Jawad MirNo. Thank you for…

1:08:49John RosengrantYeah

1:08:49Jawad Mir... Giving your time. It, I totally loved it. Thank you so much.

1:08:53John RosengrantAll right. Take care. Bye-bye.

1:08:54Jawad MirYou too. Bye-bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.