'Yellow Door', Director, Lee Hyuk-rae

0:39Guest 390. 80 90.

1:17Lee Hyuk-raeHonestly, after creating the film, including myself also director Bong, we were talking about how, what, you know, what if only us, those of us that share the memory of Yellow Door are, you know, enjoy the film. But it is really wonderful to hear when people tell me that they also related to the film and it resonated with them. It also surprises me too. So I'm very happy to hear that.

2:29Lee Hyuk-raeWould that be about this particular film or just inspiration for Director Lee in general?

2:34Jawad MirIn general, when what inspired you to become a filmmaker? That moment, that film, something that got you on.

2:59Lee Hyuk-raeRather than working on the, you know, not even from a documentary standpoint, but I do have a very vivid memory of that very moment when I decided that film was going to be my career.

3:11Guest 26,. OST.

3:39Lee Hyuk-raeIt was when I was in sixth grade in elementary school. I watched this particular film, and I was completely mesmerized, to the point where I would make with my own hands a model of, a diorama model for a particular scene. And for the school writing class, I would write about this film, and I would listen every single day to the OST of that movie.

4:06Lee Hyuk-raeLet me get back to you with that title of the film.

4:08Jawad MirSure.

4:13Lee Hyuk-raeCan you see what this is?

4:15Jawad MirIf you can raise it higher, I can see a boy climbing a ladder. Yeah Yeah, I can see it.

4:28Lee Hyuk-raeCan you guess by any chance where this scene is from? What movie?

4:35Jawad MirNo, I cannot.

4:40Guest 2Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom.

4:42Jawad MirOh.

4:43Lee Hyuk-raeIt's, yeah, Indiana Jones: Temple of Doom.

4:45Jawad MirRight. It's the…

4:46Guest 2Yeah

4:46Jawad Mir... It's the scene where the young, when they're climbing the ladder in the slavery area, right?

4:52Lee Hyuk-rae.... Yes, that's exactly right.

4:56Jawad MirSo he's a, he's a, he… M-m-m-mr. Lee is a Spielberg fan, I would like to say, right?

5:03Guest 2Yeah. Yeah.

5:07Lee Hyuk-raeYes, that's right Like many or most kids of my generation, I am indeed a Spielberg fan.

5:18Jawad MirAnd I became a filmmaker because of Spielberg as well, because of Jurassic Park. So we're on the same page in that sense.

5:48Guest 3And so after watching that Indiana Jones film, I decided, I made up my mind that I'm going to be directing films one day, not even knowing exactly what goes into creating films or what they do exactly.

6:00Jawad MirRight. No, I can completely relate to that. And What was the first camera that you, ever held? Because I know, well, Indiana Jones Temple of Doom came out in mid…'80s. For me, Jurassic Park came out in '93. That's when the digital camcorders were coming in. What cameras did you pick up? Was it eight millimeter, 16 millimeter, or were you just writing? What was that like, the evolution of you getting on to making films, whether they're home videos or just for fun?

6:35Lee Hyuk-rae.., 80 93 8mm 16mm?.

7:01Guest 28mm.

7:11Lee Hyuk-raeSo the very first camera that I was able to call my own that I could record on was a eight-millimeter film camera.

7:19Guest 28mm 8mm,.

7:37Lee Hyuk-raeBut at the time, it was an era where the eight-millimeter films, were sort of going away, right? So in Korea, there weren't any particular facilities for us to develop eight-millimeter films.

7:49Guest 28mm., 2,.

8:13Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so what you had to do back then was you had to physically mail your film to either Japan or the United States to get it developed. And so in order to, get your films back and check if everything was recorded correctly, it would take usually two weeks at the shortest, and then up to one month.

8:31Jawad MirWow.

8:31Guest 2. 8mm.

8:41Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so I wasn't able to record too much on with, eight-millimeter films.

8:47Guest 23 VHS 10.

9:10Lee Hyuk-raeAnd in ninth grade, which is the third year in middle school in Korea, it wasn't much like the yellow clu… Yellow Door film, but we did have a student film club too. So with the friends in that club, I did, create about a 10-minute film with VHS.

9:26Guest 2. TV,.

9:49Lee Hyuk-raeAnd at the time, really, you know, it was a time when it wasn't very common for a middle schooler to create a film on video. So I was, you know, it was very fun because I got to be featured in a magazine, and I also was a part of, you know, I was caught on TV too. So it was a very fun time.

10:12Lee Hyuk-raeAnd then, of course, I went into college, and then that's when Yellow Door began.

10:18Jawad MirGreat. Thank you for sharing that. I know when I was recording stuff on camcorder, like on a Sony, eight-millimeter, like Hi8 and a digital camcorder, my editing came on a VCR, so I would have... I… we had a VCR, and I bought another VCR. I convinced my parents to buy another one, and I would literally take VCR to VCR, and I'll play, and I cut. That's how my editing kind of came into play. Is that something that you followed too in the, in the digital era?

10:51Lee Hyuk-raeVCR.?

11:06Guest 28mm 8mm,.??.

11:44Lee Hyuk-raeYes, that's right. And my first editing was also with eight-millimeter film. So to this day, I still cannot forget or let go of that feeling, that fun, that thrill you get. Just the act of being able to physically cut the film and edit it together, put it together, I think obviously that's unimaginable in today's digital world, but still it is so real and so physical that it's something you just don't forget.

12:11Guest 2VCR. VCR Looking for, Looking for Paradise 8200 VCR....

12:34Lee Hyuk-raeAnd I went on. And then, and I went, into college and at the time, like you just said, I did edit with two VCRs, and one of them was the Hitachi eighty-two, hundred, which is shown as the equipment that Director Bong shot Looking for Paradise with.

12:54Guest 216mm.

13:05Lee Hyuk-raeAnd then I shot a short film with a 16mm film, and I remember it being extremely challenging.

13:12Guest 216mm.

13:21Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the reason for that is, the equipment, first of all, that you could edit 16mm films with, it was very expensive, and there weren't many, in Korea at the time.

13:32Guest 216mm.

13:40Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so as you know, if you weren't a student at a film school, it was very difficult to edit 16mm films, and I wasn't in a film school.

13:50Guest 210.

14:14Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so I remember every day I would hide into one of my friend's schools who was a film major, and I would have to hide in one of their, rooms at the school. And I remember having to sort of, clean the area, clean my place with all of the little cut-up films, and then just throwing it into this rug, and then having to run away and, you know, try not to get caught. And I remember being, doing that for over 10 days.

14:55Lee Hyuk-raeSo that always stuck with me. You know, it just, it lingered with me for a long time. So, and then I went into my military service, and by the time I was discharged from the military, I heard the wonderful news that now we are at an era where you can edit on personal computers. So I was extremely excited.

15:14Guest 2Adobe Premiere 5.

15:25Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so right after getting discharged from the military, I bought myself a computer, got the Adobe Premium version five, and began editing right away. And that brings me to today.

15:41Jawad MirGreat. No, thank you for sharing that fascinating, journey of yours and story. You know, it's, it's incredible that how little moments in our life define everything that we do from that moment on, with a scene from Indiana Jones for you. For me, the T-Rex looking into the car in Jurassic Park. And one… I always wonder, I never set out to make documentaries. Like, that was never even on my radar. I always wanted to make narrative films, but somehow that changed just natural organically. Was that something similar for you as well? Or is that something that you've always wanted to do, documentaries versus narratives?

17:07Lee Hyuk-raeI think we have a lot of common, lot in common, you and I.

17:13Jawad MirOkay, so the answer is... Go on. Sorry. Go on.

17:34Lee Hyuk-raeI myself as well, I've never even thought of wanting to create a documentary. And even right now, you know, I don't think I identify as being a documentary, creator or filmmaker.

17:46Guest 22006 2006.

18:11Lee Hyuk-raeIn 2006, I wanted to make my debut with a long, longer feature, narrative film, and it was being, you know, it was in discussion very detailed. And however, immediately before we wanted, we were about to shoot it, due to funding issues, it was halted.

18:47Lee Hyuk-raeAnd after that, came to a halt, I did try other attempts. However, it just didn't work out. So for quite a long time, I was thinking to myself, maybe just film is not my path. It's not my career to pursue.

19:02Guest 2Sewing Sisters..

19:26Lee Hyuk-raeAnd right about when I was thinking, I'm done with film, you know, I'm not going back, that was when I was suggested directing my work, Sewing Sisters. And you know, when I was suggested that, I thought this would be a fun project to do, but it just so happened to be a documentary.

19:46Guest 2Sewing Sisters.

20:09Lee Hyuk-raeAnd even today, it was both the case with Sewing Sisters and also for Yellow Door. I created documentaries, however, rather than focusing on delivering, the facts, my focus goes first to what kind of emotions do I want to convey to the audience.

20:26Guest 2Sewing Sisters,..

20:50Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so when I was making Sewing Sisters, I thought that I have to make the audience cry. And with Yellow Door, I started out thinking, I want to bring a smile to the audience faces. I want people to laugh. But oddly enough, I do hear a lot of people saying that they cried after watching Yellow Door, so I am a little bit flustered.

21:12Jawad MirAnd that is such a great feeling that I had watching Yellow Door, too, like when it started. I've never been part of a film club per se, but I've been connected to the world of film through 1996 onwards, in one way or another. And it made me smile, it made me laugh, and literally, I think the moment that I had a little bit of a emotional element was when I saw the VCR, those shots of the Hitachi VCR, the tape going in, and it just kind of brought back my childhood that, you know, obviously I could never see inside the VCR, but just having, hearing that tape going in, you know, the queuing up of the tape and the rewind button or the playback button. So it did the same thing for me, and I really enjoyed it because it's just filmmakers talking, and you know, when filmmakers talk to each other, not about their projects, but just about other stuff that they have seen or a film, it's, it's an amazing feeling that I'm sure he can understand.

22:20Guest 3.. 1996., VCR, VCR VCR..,.

23:50Lee Hyuk-raeYes, I agree. And I think, you know, we are talking about my film right now, but like, much like Yellow Door, I think the joy or, you know, the happiest moments that a f… for a cinephile is when you meet another one and you get to talk about film, right? So this moment right now is also one of those moments. You know, I get that feeling and I'm very excited too.

24:11Jawad MirGreat. Thank you for sharing that. Let's move on to the actual film itself, Yellow Door. How did you come across, the idea or how did it all happen? Did the film itself from concept onwards?

24:42Guest 22, 30.?, 30,...??.

25:12Lee Hyuk-raeIt was about last, February, so we were thinking about how it was actually the 30th anniversary since we created Yellow Door. And so four of us actually got together and we were talking about, hey, it's, you know, it's gonna be 30 years now. Maybe we should try to get everybody together and do something like a reunion. And if we were to do that, how would we get everybody together and what do we wanna do?

26:06Lee Hyuk-raeAnd while talking about that, as we were bringing back just different memories of how we studied film, what film meant to us back then, it, we got to thinking it would be really great if we could share these stories to the young generation of today. I feel like that would be really fun and a cool thing for them to hear. And so naturally, we got to thinking, hey, maybe I should create this into a documentary. So the idea came just very organically and nonchalantly.

26:45Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so I suggested to Director Bong, "Hey, we should do a documentary about this." And then he came up with this one very important condition. And he told me that one condition is, "I do not want to be the main character of the documentary. I don't want to be the main subject. And, under the condition that I am just shown as one of the many members of Yellow Door, then I'm completely on board." And then he said that he would participate, very actively.

27:40Lee Hyuk-raeAnd that's not to say it's because, oh, Director Bong is such a humble man.

27:47Guest 2PTSD.

27:52Lee Hyuk-raeBo… and it's, it's more about how Director Bong actually has something similar to PTSD. And that was because after Director Bong, became famous, there were a plethora of books about his life story, different documentaries with him as a subject matter, putting him in a specific light where they were telling this typical success story of Director Bong being extremely, extraordinary from his childhood, growing up to be this amazing person. It was just a typical success story that he didn't really approve of.

29:08Lee Hyuk-raeAnd I think you can tell from watching Director Bong's films, but you can imagine just how he hates. He's probably the person in the world who would hate this kind of situation absolute most. And, regarding that condition that he put forth, I also didn't want to make a typical, you know, life story or a biographical biopic of Director Bong either.

29:56Lee Hyuk-raeBut the problem there was who in the world was going to say yes to this pitch where you tell them Director Bong's going to appear in the documentary, but he's not the main character. But when we pitched this to Netflix, they… the creative executive, her name is Hannah Moon at Netflix. When she got the idea, I was very surprised to see her reaction.

30:49Lee Hyuk-raeAfter reading the proposal, the first thing she said was, "Hey, this is a story about a film club." And I was taken by surprise, but I later found out that Hannah, the content, the creative executive herself, actually, she had experience h… of having been a part of a film club, and that particular film club that she was a part of was actually created by the now world-famous director, Hwang Dong-hyuk, who created Squid Game.

31:43Jawad MirOh, wow.

31:53Lee Hyuk-raeSo if you really, you know, look into it, most or a lot of people who are currently, working in the Korean cinema, they have experiences of being a part of a film club. And so to my surprise, without any particular pushback, I was able to pitch my idea and get a yes, with an idea that where Director Bong will appear in it, but he won't be the, in the main spotlight. So we were able to create that story about a film club.

32:49Jawad MirGreat. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. And you know, it res… now that I think about it resonated with me a lo… aside from the element of being a filmmaker. I guess in the early '90s, you know, there were film clubs in South Korea, and I'm sure here in North America too, but not as many. But I remember when the internet started, there used to be, news groups. News groups, on kinda like a Facebook group, but news group, like text-based on different topics. So there used to be a news group on Steven Spielberg, and then there used to be websites on Steven Spielberg. I actually started a website which became phenomenally success on DreamWorks Studio, and there was that club, that sense of camaraderie that people have with each other in the film world. And when you see the trailer and you make a comment and that's essentially, you know, in a, on a smaller level, you know, that's what you guys were doing, very intimate, which I really enjoyed.

33:51Jawad MirAnd in the film, the m… the part that I loved the most among many other things, when you shared out-of-focus photographs of your group, 'cause that I have tons of those. So, you know, just making a comment more than a question. I'll come to my question after this, but go ahead. You can translate, please.

34:08Lee Hyuk-rae80....?,.,.. So funny story for your reference. Those out-of-focus, photos, using that in the documentary came from Director Bong's wife. And actually, h… she was also a member of Yellow Door Film Club. She just didn't appear in the documentary. But, you know, there was a moment when she saw those out-of-focus photographs, and she was cracking up saying, "Hey, you guys are from a film club. How can your photos be all out of focus?" And I thought that was a really, you know, great moment that I needed to put that in the film.

36:10Jawad MirYeah, no, I... And I'm glad that you did because I related to it so much, 'cause my first three 16mm student films were all either overexposed or underexposed. So, and I still have the film of it, so I completely relate to that.

36:27Lee Hyuk-rae.. 16mm.

36:41Jawad MirMy next question is what I… aside from all the storytelling and the natural candid, conversations between everybody, what I really loved was the framing of the interviews, especially. You know, it seemed like at a given time you guys had at least maybe four or five cameras on each subject in a very, you know, creative way from bottom of the floor pointing upwards on a wider lens or using a telephoto lens, different things. And I just want to get an idea how many, how many cameras were you guys running at a time, i-in a given situation of an interview, not the scenes in themselves?

37:23Lee Hyuk-rae.. 11.

37:50Guest 21.

37:59Lee Hyuk-raeSo we always had three cameras when we were doing the individual interviews. And we switched up the camera setup, about three times per person. So per interview. So that's how we were able to give the feeling that we had more cameras than were actually there, which was only three.

38:42Jawad MirGot it. Perfect. A-as you, as you know, you know, when you're telling a story in a documentary format, you know the general idea of the storyline. You know the beginning, you know the end, but you kinda don't know how you're gonna get there. You have some sense. And story always changes in documentary while you're shooting, in post-production. How… And that there's cases that it probably it doesn't that much. Was that something similar that you felt across where the arc was going in one direction and then you felt, no, we need to go this way? If so, give me some examples of things that you decided to make a change of during production or in post-production.

40:10Lee Hyuk-raeHonestly speaking, after we were done with all of the shooting part, I was in panic mode, because I was completely lost. I was thinking, how in the world am I going to unravel this story? So there's… And so after each interview, there was one question that all of the interviewees asked me, and that was, "Wait, so is this a story worth telling? Is this, is this right? Are we doing it right?"

41:01Lee Hyuk-raeAnd to that, I would always answer, "Yes, of course. This is a story." but once I was done with all of the footage, I was thinking to myself, "Okay, I feel like I need to run away." So until now, with all of my works, I was the only one doing the editing. So this one was actually my very first work where I worked with another editor.

41:38Guest 216.,.

42:01Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the partner that I worked with, his name is Won Chang Jae. And after watching the entire footage, he came to me with about 16 bullet points in terms of how he would, sort the stories. And looking at that proposal, I thought, "Okay, this makes sense. This is a story."

42:37Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so that was when the overall flow of the story, was put in place. After seeing that rough cut that, editor Won put together, it did indeed feel like a story to me. And so before going further with any other details, I have to stop at this po-point all the time and thank Director Won for all of the work. I really do.

43:23Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so now we had the story, the overall structure. But then obviously it's a completely different story when it comes to how do we bring that together and how do we, suggest it to the audience so that in a fun and entertaining way.

43:47Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the biggest problem that we have, or the issue that we had to resolve was striking a adequate balance between Director Bong and other members of Yellow Door. Because we found out, while looking at the footage that even if you tell the same story when it comes out of Director Bong's mouth, it's just entertaining and you are drawn in. But when it's from other members of Yellow Door, you fi-we found that the audience's concentration was probably going to drop.

45:15Lee Hyuk-raeAnd I was thinking, we were thinking about why that was, and the answer was simple. Director Bong, we just know who he is, right? He is hugely famous. And so when someone's very familiar, you're close friends with them, no matter how boring their story is, you tend to listen in on them, right? And so the problem at hand was how to tell in a very balanced way the story of one person who is wildly famous, and then 11 others who no one really knew who they were.

45:56Lee Hyuk-raeFinding the, identifying the problem, that was the easy part. Coming to the solution, that was, I have to say, it was extremely challenging. And that's when the whip from Netflix came about. Hannah at Netflix, she never had once said that this film needed to be about Director Bong.

46:51Lee Hyuk-raeInstead, the notes that Netflix gave us every time we showed them a particular edited version was always the same. It was consistent. And that was, they were telling us that it's very hard to concentrate on what the others, so non-Director Bong, people are saying. So can you please put it, you know, edit it or create it in a way where we would be able to listen to them?

47:30Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so that was such a huge challenge to the point where I did regret a little bit thinking, "Hey, maybe I should have just made this all about Director Bong."

47:40Guest 210.

47:47Lee Hyuk-raeSo honestly, I think we changed the opening about 10 times or more. And so while thinking about that and going through that challenging process, I came to the idea where including Director Bong, if we could somehow present all of the members of Yellow Door almost as if they were characters of a Director Bong movie, if we were able to show to the audience, in a light where they're seen as a little bit eccentric, you know, oddballs, then I felt like the audience could find a charm or, you know, they would be drawn to them and then be able to listen to their stories.

48:58Guest 2Looking for Paradise.

49:29Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so the last opening sequence that we came to, or the opening part of the interviews was w… we started to, we decided to begin with Im Hoon-a, who oddly enough remembers all of the details of Director Bong's Looking for Paradise, but has the two main characters completely confused, and then also s… presenting, to the audience how this was a film club filled with people who were, while being film club members, unable to get the right focus on their photographs. So presenting them as a little bit of an oddball, you know, an eccentric group of people, and then we were able to find that people were, you know, they were drawn in to the charm of the people and the film club to the point where they were able to... They were willing to listen to their stories.

50:13Guest 2A4..

50:36Lee Hyuk-raeSo after, I was done with everything, I went back and reread the about two, paged, page worth of a synopsis that I had written before I started the project. And I was very surprised, happily surprised, to find that it was very much in line with the final product.

51:43Lee Hyuk-raeAnd as a documentary maker, I'm sure you would know, but when you are creating documentaries, I think we all begin with this great, objective, right? You have these huge plans, and then once you get into the shooting process and the editing process, you're really busy doing what's given to you, right? The handed, the task that's handed to you that day, you're just busy trying to get it done within that day. And I think that along the process of doing that daily, you somehow find yourself getting closer to that goal that you originally had. I don't know if I'm, we're just lucky, or I don't know if that's the way documentary creating works. If I were to answer that question, I think I'm going to have to do a m… do a couple more to be able to answer the question.

52:30Jawad MirThank you so much for such a detailed, answer about the production, the post-production. One thing I was wondering, it just kind of occurred to me right now, was there ever a thought of shooting the film with the nostalgic approach of, like, camcorders from the '90s? Like, was that, did that ever kind of come across to give that... I know the time period is different, it's more about a reunion, but just to kind of give that a feel, was that ever part of a conversation?

52:58Lee Hyuk-rae. 90? It's funny because I think we all think alike, us documentary makers.

53:20Guest 2VHS, Looking for Paradise.

53:39Lee Hyuk-raeSo in the early stages of planning for the documentary, we did have this idea where, we wanted to maybe have one of the many cameras, a working VHS, one from the era when Looking for Paradise was created.

54:02Lee Hyuk-raeBut like I said, going through and struggling with all of those daily tasks, I actually forgot about it. So we ended up here.

54:12Jawad MirGreat. One thing, you know, in the '90s, I became aware of the foreign cinema. Originally, I mean, I, originally I was born in Pakistan. I spent 13 years of my life there, and I've been living in Canada, you know, since 1990. And… In terms of foreign films, not from my native land, but other countries like Iran, South Korea, Japan. You know, in the 90s there was a big thing with Ang Lee and John Woo like films like, you know, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Face Off. Then there was a Persian, there's a Persian filmmaker, Majidi. Majidi, he made a film called Color of Paradise, about a blind kid who's trying to win his father masterpiece, which if you haven't seen, please watch it. And then there was a South Korean film that I saw. It was called Old Boy from 2003. And the, you know, there's always these periods of films that come in from different parts of the world, and Parasite kind of reopened the door.

55:20Jawad MirOr maybe the first time, I would say, opened the door for South Korean cinema to come into mainstream, like, you know, followed by Squid Games and, you know, now your film and I'm sure there's much more stuff that's in the making that's already out there. How do you feel the young filmmakers in South Korea in terms of access they have now as opposed to you guys? Do you feel that there is many more stories to tell for the young filmmakers, and what advice would you give them in terms of telling their own stories or trying to come into Hollywood or, you know, tell the Western stories?

56:02Guest 390.., 90, Face Off Color of Paradise.,.. 2003 Old Boy..,?

57:26Guest 2., Color of Paradise?.

57:32Guest 3Can I ask? I didn't get to watch Color of Paradise. So what country is that from?

57:37Jawad MirIt's, from Iran.

57:44Guest 3I'm going to be sure to check that out.

57:45Jawad MirYeah, I would recommend that he has a box of tissues because he's gonna cry. It's an amazing film.

57:57Guest 2?,...,., 30 Looking for Paradise.

59:00Guest 3So that's a very difficult question. I tried to sort of steer away from that by asking you that first. But I think looking back, you know, back then and now, the environment of Korean cinema, it has gone through significant changes. However, from the point of view of filmmakers, I wonder if that much has indeed changed. I think 30 years ago when Director Bong was making Looking for Paradise from that underground, space, and now how he feels when he is shooting Mickey 17 in London. In terms of his mindset, I don't think that those two are too different from one another.

59:41Guest 2., 20, 10, 20?,....

1:00:51Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so I think that if we think about the challenges and advantages that we had back then, obviously there's going to be challenges and advantages that filmmakers these days have. But when it comes to the ratio, I feel like the ratio is probably going to be similar. And so if I were to think, what would I have liked to hear when I was back in my late teens and early twenties? You know, what kind of advice would have put me on a better path or helped me be better at my current path that I'm walking on? And to answer that, not much. I feel like not much could have been said, because I don't think that when it comes to what we do, other people's advice, it doesn't really create a huge difference.

1:02:12Lee Hyuk-raeAnd so, you know, I think I would say if you want to do it, do it. If you no longer feel like it, don't do it. And even if you decide no longer to pursue that goal, that does not erase the time that you spent pursuing that goal, following that dream. And I feel like all you can do really is to follow your heart. Follow your heart, considering all of the different conditions that surround you. But at the end of the day, the choice that you decide to make, that is the choice that is probably the best choice for you to make at that point in time.

1:02:52Lee Hyuk-raeI think that was a very tough question, so I feel like I gave you a different answer, but that's how I would put it.

1:02:58Jawad MirNo, it's a great answer because at some ti… I've never heard that answer before. Normally, you know, people would say follow your dreams and never give up, which is true. But at the same time, everybody is made from a different cloth, but at the same time, same cloth. One thing that I would say that I have come to realize, and I'm sure I think everybody goes through it, this is just a comment, is that when you start off your film career or production career, you're, you know, because we sometimes get really fascinated with all the toys like cameras and lenses and all that stuff. And, you know, as you tell one story or two stories, you realize how that is, that they are just tools. And the biggest and most important thing always has been, is, and always will be our characters and stories. And I think sometimes we kind of get caught in all these gadgets and stuff. This is just a comment and you can go ahead and translate.

1:04:34Jawad MirJust to sort of wrap up questions, what's next? Have you thought about a project next, whether it's documentary or narrative, or you're taking a break?

1:05:26Lee Hyuk-raeSo I have two projects on mind. I have first one would, is a narrative film. It's a Yorgos Antimos type of story with a four-eyed character.

1:05:40Guest 270,. 90. 80 TV, 80 TV TV,.

1:06:42Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the second project that I have is a documentary. So with my former work, Sewing Sisters, I told the story of the '70s. And that one was, while it was a story about labor, it was also about culture, such as, you know, the act of singing and writing. And then with Yellow Door, I told the story about '90s film. So this next project I'm thinking of is, it's about the '80s TV culture, and a particular very charming female character who has currently passed, but I've always been fascinated with her for a very long time. So about the TV culture in the '80s and just what goes on behind the scenes, and about this very charming, female character who was really a force behind the scenes, behind the curtains.

1:07:44Lee Hyuk-raeSo among the two, which one I would go into first, well, that would depend on which one gets funded first. However, until now, I haven't really had the chance to prove myself, in any way as a narrative film actor... Director, so I'm not really sure. I would love to personally get to work on the narrative film first, but I don't know what's gonna happen.

1:08:49Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the reason for wanting to do the narrative film first is not about, you know, I really wanna do a narrative film, anything like that, but, and I don't think they meant to do this, but during the process of working on Yellow Door, the members of Yellow Door, they hurt me so much. So I want to work on the narrative film first.

1:09:40Lee Hyuk-raeBecause, you know, Director Bong, every time he would meet me for Yellow Door interviews, he would ask me, even though he knew very well that I was working on this documentary day and night, he would ask me, "Hey," you know, "how far along are you with the script for your feature film? Have you written it yet?" And I'm sure you can agree, when you're working on a documentary day and night, you do not have the mental or physical energy or any kind of room to work on anything else, let alone write a script for a feature film.

1:10:25Lee Hyuk-raeAnd another one, Choi Jongtae, he would call me up and tell me, you know, he would say things like, "Hey, why are you so serious about this? Why do you think of this as work? Man, this is romance." Creating documentaries, there's no romance in that.

1:10:44Jawad MirI would say there's romance when you're directing it, but there's no romance when you're in post-production.

1:11:20Lee Hyuk-raeAnd the biggest blow actually came from Director Bong's wife. So we were text messaging after everything was done, and she says, "Great job, Hyung-rae, and now you get to do, or you should do your own film."

1:11:38Lee Hyuk-raeThat was shocking. So I got to thinking, oh, you know, these guys or all of these people, they only think narrative films or feature films are films. So in... Then this is Korean slang, but I thought, ah, you know, screw it. I'm gonna give you a narrative film.

1:12:21Lee Hyuk-raeYeah, so that's why I'd like to work on the feature film first, but I will have to see how things play out.

1:12:27Jawad MirFair enough. And I, and I think I can understand with narrative films there's a wider audience. You know, as a filmmaker, you want your film to be seen by as many people as possible, and with documentary, it's, it's challenging. You know, it's, it's tough to have that wide audience. So I'm guessing, I don't know, you mean, obviously you know more… on your end, but for me personally, and I'm wondering if it's the same, is it because possibly the narrative element, aside from controlling the film and telling the story the way you wanna tell it's having a wider audience?

1:14:45Lee Hyuk-raeYes, I think there's truth to that. And, but, you know, when it comes to, like, if the same person says the same thing with the same facial struct… facial expression, the way it is perceived if it were a scene in narrative film and if it was the part of a documentary, that's completely different, right?

1:15:04Lee Hyuk-raeWhile there is that strength of a narrative filmmaker that you can create those scenes, also the way that same line and same facial expression, the way it hits the audience, the level of impact that it has if it's seen in the context of a documentary, obviously that impact is way... You know, it's not something that narrative film can catch up to. I think while, as you said, there's that sense of being able to control the story you wanna tell through narrative films, when it comes to documentaries, there's that ecstasy of discovery. So, you know, the comparison, it's, it's still tough to, tough to tell, I think.

1:15:43Jawad MirYeah. No, I completely agree with the element of getting natural, you know, moments in documentaries, as opposed to directing actors. I mean, even, you know, greatest actors like Daniel Day-Lewis or, you know, Henry Fonda or Frank Sinatra, like, it's not the same thing. And I learned that not with my first film, but I learned that with my second and third film, these two posters in the background here, that the real expressions of people, there's just something... And when you're, when you're filming it, when you're dir… you know, whether you're the cameraman or you're just a director or you're at, you know, you're on that location, and you see in a scene where something unexpected happens that you did not even anticipate, and emotion comes out, that's when you feel like, pardon my language, "Holy shit, I got a film here."

1:16:38Guest 3., Daniel Day-Lewis Henry Fonda Frank Sinatra., ",...". That's actually very, exactly the same feeling that I had when I was interviewing Im Hoon-a and realized that she all along had the two characters of Looking for Paradise mixed up.

1:17:41Guest 3That was that moment for me.

1:17:45Jawad MirOkay. Got it. I, you know, I know I've said a lot about the film, and I just wanted to say one last thing. You know, you talked about the story and everything, and when I saw the trailer of The Yellow Door, the first reaction in my mind was, "Okay, this is interesting. You know, it's about filmmakers. I wanna see it." But then when I started, like, when I literally played it this morning and I was watching it, in the first 30 seconds, I'm like, "How the hell is this gonna be a story in 90 minutes?" You know, because it's not like there is, there is not necessarily, like, an antagonist, and there's... It's not the same kind of a feel like a s… you know, it's just about a group of filmmakers who went through different phases and dealing with different challenges. But again, I've said it before, I'll say it again, I just was so happy to see the film, and I was so overwhelmed by the emotions in the film. Happy, sad, mixed. And it was a, it was a beautiful film made, m… beautiful film that you made, and I, and I hope a lot of people see it.

1:18:51Jawad MirAnd what's great about it, one last thing, I don't think people who love films or who are filmmakers will be the only ones… Who will watch it and like it. I think it's a, it's a very universal story. So thank you so much for making it. Really enjoyed it.

1:19:06Guest 3. ",... ". ", 90?".,.,..,.. I think it's always, you know, it brings you great fear and great joy to speak to someone who has seen your work. So I want to thank you for all of the moments that, you know, we related to one another, and it was just an amazing conversation I had with you. So thank you.

1:20:40Jawad MirThank you. And where can I see, s… your other film, Sewing Sisters?

1:20:51Guest 2Vimeo, Vimeo.

1:21:01Guest 3I don't think you can get access to it, outside of Korea, so, let me send you a locked Vimeo account link to that so you can watch it.

1:21:11Jawad MirPerfect. In return, I'll send you, the links to the films that I have, and let's see what he thinks about them.

1:21:23Guest 3Thank you. I'd be happy to watch them. I would love to.

1:21:29Jawad MirPerfect. Thank you so much for your time, both of you guys. Really appreciate it. I will not be exaggerating if I say this. I've done about 90-plus interviews on this podcast. This is by far one of my favorites, so thank you so much.

1:21:43Guest 3. 90.. Thank you.

1:21:56Jawad MirThank you, guys. Have a great evening. Thank you again.

1:21:59Guest 3Thank you.

1:22:01Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.