'Exhibiting Forgiveness', Composer, Jherek Bischoff

0:08Jawad MirWelcome back everyone to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast. I'm your host Jawad Mir. Today's guest is Jarek Bushoff. He's a music composer for a film called Exhibiting Forgiveness, which you probably have not heard of. I did not hear of it until I was reached out by the agent of the music composer and got the screener, saw the film, and I was blown away. It was one of the most amazing pieces of film, that I have not, that I have seen in a while. A pure drama relationship between a father and a son, an artist and a broken family, and what a great and powerful film. I will let you, hear and watch the discussion and kind of get more sense of the film and the music composer. Without further ado, here is my conversation with Jarek Bushoff. Well, good to have you, man. Thanks for…

0:58Jherek BischoffYeah

0:59Jawad Mir... Thanks for joining, to talk about, Exhibiting Forgiveness. It's a very interesting…

1:07Jherek BischoffYes

1:07Jawad Mir... Title. I won't lie.

1:09Jherek BischoffYeah.

1:09Jawad MirI've, I've never come across that, but I did not expect what I was going to watch. I didn't know anything about it. I started watching it sort of on my iPad while I was doing some work, and it hooked me on so quickly that I had…

1:31Jawad Mir... To shut it down and then watch it later in the evening on the TV screen.

1:36Jherek BischoffRight on, man

1:36Jawad Mir... Because, what a, what a great film. What a powerful performance that I just, like, it was just great. I was not expecting that in any way.

1:45Jherek BischoffRight on. Yeah. It's,.. I think, a lot of people don't really know what to expect and are getting hit that same way of just, like, you know, it's, it's heavy, but it's so beautiful and looks so nice and the performances of those actors is just absolutely amazing, and the way Titus is woven in, his artwork into the film and how the, how an artist is portrayed is refreshing and a person's relationship to their art and how, it feels like a real version. Not the Hollywood version. So…

2:35Jawad MirYes. Yeah

2:35Jherek Bischoff... It's, you know, it's... I mean, the whole movie feels like a real version, not the Hollywood version. So, it, yeah, it's, it was amazing to be a part of.

2:45Jawad MirYeah. It's so true, and then what's so sad is that we live in a time where movies like the... If this was made in the '90s… ... It would be, like, every, like, everybody would be talking about it, right? Like, you know…

2:58Jherek BischoffTotally. Yeah

2:59Jawad Mir... But now things have changed so much. Such great films come out and I didn't know anything about it. Not many people know about these kind of films, so it's kind of really sad…

3:08Jherek BischoffTotally

3:08Jawad Mir... In that sense.

3:10Jherek BischoffIt is. Yeah. I know. It's been interesting to watch the rollout because, yeah, it's, it's, been having a hard time finding an audience in the theater, but every single person that sees it, I mean, the reviews are, like, so glowing and great. So I'm hoping when it, when it goes to streaming it will

3:32Jawad MirYeah

3:32Jherek Bischoff... Open up a much larger audience and get some more eyes on it.

3:37Jawad MirFor sure, man.

3:38Jherek BischoffAnd ears.

3:38Jawad MirWell, talk… Yes. Yes. Ears. Speaking of ears.

3:42Jherek BischoffYes.

3:43Jawad MirYou know, your work speaks,.. It is about ears. It is about evoking emotion, and it was a beautiful piece of score that came…

3:54Jherek BischoffThank you

3:55Jawad Mir... In very subtle moments in the film. ... And because of the greatness of the film and the performances, I was... I didn't really... You know, something, I'm a huge fan of movie scores. I, it just did not dawn upon to me, like, when the music was kicking, which is a great thing…

4:13Jherek BischoffTotally. Yeah

4:13Jawad Mir... As a composer for you.

4:15Jherek BischoffTotally

4:15Jawad Mir... But it, but when I did w… sort of go back and skim through it again just to pick up your music and stuff, it was really cool. It was really nice to hear that.

4:25Jherek BischoffNice. Thanks, man.

4:26Jawad MirYeah.

4:26Jherek BischoffYeah. Yeah. With this film, it was super exciting to, you know, read the script, and even in the script there was a lot of, moments that I could tell were going to be, the storytelling was just going to be, the visual content and the music and that would be pushing the story, telling, not dialogue. Which, you know, there's a few scenes like that in the film. And then so that was exciting, but also, you know, once I started seeing the film its… itself and, you know, there were certain scenes like that basement scene, the dialogue between, Terrell and his father and, you know, we were all kind of like, "Should there be any music?"

5:27Jherek BischoffAnd I was the first person to raise my hand and say like, "Stay, like, we need to stay out of it. They're, we don't, they don't need to be…

5:35Jawad MirYeah

5:35Jherek Bischoff... Elevated here at all. Like, they're giving everything we need, you know. I just want to stay out of the way because, yeah, the acting was so good.

5:45Jawad MirGood call.

5:45Jherek BischoffYeah.

5:46Jawad MirGood call.

5:46Jherek BischoffSo there was a lot of stuff like that in the film where it's like, it needed a lot less music than we all thought it did. It, as soon as we saw the performances, it was, yeah, it, vastly changed our concept of what needed, what was needed…

6:08Jawad MirLovely. Lovely.

6:09Jherek BischoffYeah

6:10Jawad MirD… Der… D… Derek, tell me about your journey. What got you into storytelling from a standpoint of music score? What's your journey like?

6:23Jherek BischoffMy journey is pretty wild. Like, it's... So, you know, I started playing music at a very early age, and knew by, like, high school that music was what I wanted to do. And, I made a, like a very conscious decision, y… you know, like, I only went to college for about a year, and then decided to just focus on music, and school wasn't doing it for me personally. And I just made a decision, like, I'm only gonna take jobs that are music-related jobs from here on out. It… And no matter how bad it gets, I'm only gonna take music jobs. And so I ended up living in a van and living in a friend's closet for years and, like, just struggling super hard, you know?

7:30Jherek BischoffAnd but I was, just saying yes to every music gig that came along, and through that learned how to produce, learned how to mix and engineer. And through the production stuff, actually it was, it was that led me to, orchestral composition because what happened was these bands would come in, and we'd be like th… they'd be like, "we want some cello and some flute on this song." And so we would invite a cello and flute player over, and they would, they would be like, "What do you want me to play?" And we would go, "some cello and flute stuff? I don't know." You know? Or we'd hum a little line or something. And I quickly realized, hey, if… I don't wanna waste these people's time, for one thing, and we'll get a better result if I just teach myself how to write music a little bit.

8:31Jherek BischoffDoesn't have to be perfect, but just to give them a little seed of information to get us kicked off. And so that's what I did, and these bands that I was recording kept getting more and more ambitious. And, there was a point in which I just muted the drums and the electric guitar and the electric bass, and what was coming back was symphonic music. And not only that, but I had written every note of it. And…

9:01Jherek Bischoff... You know, this was over the course of, you know, five years of…

9:07Jawad MirSure

9:07Jherek Bischoff... Slowly kind of figuring it out. But, as soon as I heard that and was, like, kind of stunned, I didn't realize I was even doing it or wasn't planning on doing it just kind of happened, I was like, huh, this is actually a thing I can do. And, around that time, I heard a piece of music that changed my life forever, which was, Fratres by, Arvo Part. And, that piece of music was actually the reason why I left college. I heard that music playing out of a classroom, barged into the classroom, grabbed the, you know, the vinyl, and was, like, looking at it going, "What is this? I've never heard music like this." And left school, grabbed the record at a record shop. Like, literally walked from school, grabbed that record, and never set foot in school again.

10:11Jherek BischoffI was just like, this is, this is everything. Like, th… this piece… ... Of music is everything that, I personally would like to express in music. And so I got really interested in orchestral music, and that has led me to places that I never, ever would have, considered. So I then started making my own orchestral music, and composing and thinking of myself more as a composer than a bass player in a rock band. And, like, as soon as I started doing the orchestral stuff, the uphill battle that I had been kind of w… fighting against as a experimental rock musician for my whole life, suddenly the energy changed, and the orchestral world was kind of like, "Hey, c… like, beat us.

11:24Jherek BischoffLike, let… let's, let's do something." You know? And so, th… that opened up, a whole world…

11:33Jawad MirOkay

11:33Jherek Bischoff... For me that, led to me doing theater work, which, was exciting. And then operas out in Germany and Switzerland and arranging for artists that wanted orchestral elements in their stuff and led me to film work. So the I moved to Los Angeles because I was interested in getting into film work, because I realized that… Through all my years, I had, in music, I had developed all these skills, and in the rock world, it's not necessarily frowned upon, but to express yourself in different ways constantly is, it's hard to grow a fan base. You know, like if one record sounds like this and another record sounds like that, it's hard to get people to understand the world.

12:41Jherek BischoffBut I realized that film music took my orche… orchestral chops, my… ... Interest in jazz, my, being a mul… multi-instrumentalist, my engineering, producing. All of those things are part of being a film music maker. And so I moved to LA specifically to get into film about 11 years ago, but to get your foot in the door is very difficult and…

13:16Jawad MirYeah

13:17Jherek Bischoff... That's right when all the opera and theater stuff really started picking up for me and took over, and I... So then I was still in LA but constantly in Europe working on that stuff, and it's been through going through that journey of theater and opera that has led me back to film, and realizing how closely related those skills are is, amazing. Like…

13:51Jawad MirYeah

13:51Jherek Bischoff... Reading a script and coming up with ideas just off of, you know, a script or a libretto is what I've been doing for the last 10 years. And so, as soon as I was offered a film, it was, yeah, it was relatively easy to jump in.

14:15Jawad MirIsn't it incredible that sometimes I can speak for myself and a few of the people I've spoken to and I know and of course, your story too, is that sometimes that path that you wanna take to the destination, no matter how much you try, it goes this ways and that ways and some, just somehow when you see, when you don't see it going to the destination, it somehow just ends up back in that direction, and then it swivels away again. It's, it's just such a…

14:45Jherek BischoffAbsolutely

14:46Jawad Mir... Cool thing. At the moment, it's not cool, obviously.

14:49Jherek BischoffRight. Right.

14:49Jawad MirYou know, in hindsight, it's, it's an incredible that there are just so many different ways to go to where you want to go, no matter what field you're in.

14:58Jherek BischoffAbsolutely, and I feel like, one of the, lucky... I'm, I'm not lucky, but, like, one thing that I do pride myself on is, you know, noticing when an energy line is open. And, like I said before, as long as it's music related, I will, I will go down…

15:27Jawad MirSure

15:28Jherek Bischoff... That path and check it out, you know? And, yeah, I've just learned through the years, of watching other people, like, if it's something that you really should be doing in that moment, that the energy line will be open…

15:46Jawad MirYeah

15:46Jherek Bischoff... For it, you know?

15:47Jawad MirYeah.

15:47Jherek BischoffSo there's, sure, there's plenty of stories where you just, like, fight tooth and nail to break through, and you finally get the thing, and it's like, you know, it's the Hollywood version of just, you know, the thing. But for me, it's just actually, it's not the path of least resistance because I'm lazy or not, confident in myself or my skills or anything like that. It's legitimately just like, I don't have to fight against the, those walls. There's other avenues to go down.

16:30Jawad MirFor sure.

16:31Jherek BischoffSo if those are open and that one's closed, don't, don't be afraid to pivot and…

16:38Jawad MirYeah

16:39Jherek Bischoff... Yeah, because like you said, it does all swil… swil… swirl around and, you find yourself back in that spot.

16:49Jawad Mir100%. Going back to exhibiting forgiveness, the process of coming up with the theme or the first track, what kind of experimentation, if any, like, you did? How closely you worked with the director or, you know, anything you can share with us.

17:11Jherek BischoffSure. So, this process was pretty incredible. So, well, to f… you know, actually piggyback on what we were just saying before, part of, part of going on these, the journey of finding my way back to film is, you know, the relationships you make along the way, friendships you make, down all these different paths. The way I actually got the film was my friend Michael Vique, who is now Titus the director's,.. He's the president of film for Titus's company, Revolution Ready.

17:55Jherek BischoffAnd I played in bands with him for off and on for 25 years. Sometimes we're, like, in close touch for a while or touring together, and then other times I won't hear from him for five years, things like that. But, I get a random text from him one day saying, "Hey, I'm working for Titus. He's got this script." We're interviewing composers right now. You interested? And, that, you know, so these... You never know where these friendships and relationships are going to…

18:31Jawad MirYeah

18:31Jherek Bischoff... Lead and it's, it's, important to recognize. But the process itself, I was so keen on getting into film that, when they did send the script, I read it the day they sent it. And, like I said, my… the skills that I didn't really even know that I was developing through theater and opera was being able to read a script or libretto and fully imagining a world, and imagining scenes in your head and really, you know, seeing colors, seeing the whole picture. Because in opera, for instance, you don't get what you would get picture until the very last moment when everyone's on stage in costume and everything.

19:33Jherek BischoffYou have, you have to create all, like, every scene, you have to create the flow and the emotional dynamic of the scene. And you have to put a lot of thought into what the whole thing is gonna feel like so that when you get to stage, it feels right. Because if the music is way too big for a scene or too small, it's just gonna feel wrong. So you put a lot of thought into that when you're working on an opera. And so what I did when I read the script was, immediately sit down and I wrote six pieces of music. And…

20:20Jherek Bischoff... I wanted the gig so bad, I hired real string players, hired, real horn players, and made six full pieces of music and mixed them, mastered them, sent them over in two days. So from two days from getting the script to, two days later, they had six pieces of music that were specifically for the film. And Titus, the director, was immediately like, "Wow, this guy wants the gig, and his music is really cool, so let's keep talking." he was sold immediately, but then the, you know, to convince the producers to give someone who… that doesn't have a lot of credits and stuff, a chance is not easy.

21:17Jawad MirYeah

21:17Jherek Bischoff... And so he was going up to bat for me, and also, kept kind of asking for more demos. Like, "Hey, can you try something like this? Can you try something like this?" And I made probably 20 pieces of music, before I even had the job. And but when I got the job, they sent me the first cut of the film and the, like 80% of the film was temped with the music I had made. And I was like, "So, you know, you guys, it's, it's working, but, like, I thought that was all just to get the gig." And my first day…... Of actually working on this film would be the day I was sent the first cut. And they were like, "No, man, this is the music for the film." And so actually 80% of the film was scored just from me reading the script and reacting to the script and talking to Titus.

22:26Jawad MirThat's crazy.

22:26Jherek BischoffYeah. And then, and then it was just about, like, you know, replacing certain instruments or, you know, carving out space for dialogue here and there and just, like, sculpting it a little bit more. But the vibe, the tone, everything was fully set. And from my little bit of film, music making, finding the tone and the feeling of the music is, to me, like 90% of the actual hard work.

23:06Jherek BischoffAs soon as you find that tone, music is, for me to make…

23:10Jawad MirYeah

23:11Jherek Bischoff... Is super easy. But it's like fin… honing in on the instrument choice, the overall vibe is the hard part.

23:22Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's sim… it's similar with editing, it's similar with screenwriting, it's similar…

23:25Jherek BischoffI bet

23:25Jawad Mir... It's just about finding that tone. And once you get it… ... Then it's like boom.

23:29Jherek BischoffYeah. Yeah.

23:30Jawad MirGoing back to, and you can turn this question down if you don't feel comfortable.

23:37Jherek BischoffNo.

23:37Jawad MirGoing back to your days of sleeping in the car and all that… ... You know, challenging stuff. Do you…

23:43Jherek BischoffYeah.

23:44Jawad MirI'm sure there were many. But do you remember a day where everything seemed terrible, gloomy, is this going to work? The doubt kicked in, from a money standpoint, from emotional standpoint, everything. Like…

24:00Jherek BischoffYeah

24:00Jawad Mir... Do you remember anything like that really hit you hard?

24:03Jherek BischoffCertainly. Yeah, certainly, like, but, you know, I'm, I was in a, you know, obviously a privileged position where… You know, I have a lot of friends that were doing that kind of thing, but didn't have a safety net. You know what I mean? Like, my parents were s… very supportive emotionally…

24:31Jherek Bischoff... But they also weren't giving me money or anything like that. But I did know that if shit really…

24:41Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

24:41Jherek Bischoff... Did hit the fan, that they would like be like, "Hey, come live at home," or w… whatever, you know? But I have friends that were doing that same struggle without that safety net, and that would have been really scary and hard. So yeah, I wanted to acknowledge that. But like

25:04Jawad MirBut still, I mean, you know, the fact that you acknowledge that, I appreciate it, but… ... You didn't use it, right? Or at least…

25:10Jherek BischoffNo, I didn't use it. Right

25:11Jawad Mir... Right. So st… I know it was in the back of your mind, and yeah, but it's like m… ... Mentally it would have hit you that, "Holy crap, what am I gonna do for tomorrow's meal or the day after meal?"

25:19Jherek BischoffTotally

25:19Jawad Mir... But still, I mean, it's not, it's not easy.

25:23Jherek BischoffNo

25:24Jawad Mir... You know?

25:24Jherek BischoffIt's definitely not.

25:25Jawad MirIt's not easy. And I…

25:27Jherek BischoffYou know, and for the most part, I didn't ever really,.. I didn't have too much of a hard time with it because I cared so mu… so deeply about music and…

25:49Jawad MirYeah

25:49Jherek Bischoff... Wanted to do it so badly. And I could feel that even though there were a lot of roadblocks and that, you know, none of the bands that I was working in were, you know, finding, a level of su… success that would've, you know, changed my life, i… in those specific ways, I did always feel like there... That I was on a path and that it would lead to somewhere. So, you know, I have…

26:27Jawad MirBut, b… b… but then even in that, like you know, I'm in the industry as well.

26:34Jherek BischoffYeah.

26:34Jawad MirAnd just despite loving what you do, which is a bonus…

26:39Jherek BischoffYeah

26:39Jawad Mir... Right? Obviously you are on this journey because you love it what you do. I mean, who would be crazy enough to be able to do all, wanna do all these things just to get where you wanna get?

26:47Jherek BischoffSure.

26:48Jawad MirBut still, it's…

26:48Jherek BischoffYeah

26:49Jawad Mir... It's, it's still hard. It is. It's not… ... I'm not, it's not like, you know, like something that you're in Africa or South Asia or, you know, like a, you're in a war zone. You can't compare to that. But it's just trying to break through. It's a challenging thing.

27:04Jherek BischoffYeah.

27:04Jawad MirBut the only thing that keeps you up and running is that love for what you wanna do.

27:09Jherek BischoffTotally. Yeah. I mean, you're, you're definitely right. I, there's... It's definitely easier to think back on these things and think, you know, when you s… when you're on a tour that's like the worst, most struggling, struggle tour you've ever been on, those are the ones…

27:31Jawad MirYeah

27:31Jherek Bischoff... That you remember, and you remember them kind of fondly, you know? It's like, y… you can look back and be like, "Oh, I, you know, yeah, I was living in my van for a couple years," but like, you know, it wasn't that bad and blah. But yeah, I mean, it was horrible.

27:50Jawad MirWell, in hindsight…

27:51Jherek BischoffTo be completely honest

27:51Jawad Mir... Everything is great, right? Right. In hindsight…

27:53Jherek BischoffYeah

27:53Jawad Mir... Everything's great.

27:54Jherek BischoffI actually honestly sometimes feel more discouraged nowadays because, like back then it was all still... Like, I was so naive about how both the world worked and how the music business worked and everything. And now knowing how all of those things function, and how much is stacked against people, who are trying to express themselves in not a way that you can put into a simple box, how hard that is to break through to a larger audience. Like, you know, I'm still living in a, you know, pretty relatively small apartment and, like, holding onto my cheap rent here in LA, like, as long as I can because it affords me the possibility to take work that, I really feel is meaningful, as opposed to just taking work just for paychecks.

29:15Jherek BischoffAnd you know, I've been doing this for, what, 30 years, basically. And not just like punching in and out every day. It's like all day from wake up to sleep, I am working my ass off. I am, like, not only working on actual music, but, you know, doing all the business side stuff.

29:44Jawad MirOh, yeah.

29:45Jherek BischoffDoing everything. And I find, like, I'm still here. Like, seriously? Like, fuck. You know, this is insane. I'm…

29:54Jawad MirYeah

29:54Jherek Bischoff... I'm, like, I work so hard, and, still, though, you know, I have no problems paying rent and eating and all those things that were difficult for so long, that's not a worry anymore. But like, man, it would just be nice if… If it wasn't so hard.

30:23Jawad MirYeah

30:23Jherek Bischoff... Back in the day, I was…

30:24Jawad MirBut…

30:24Jherek Bischoff... Willing to just, like, sleep on the floors and do whatever, but as you get older, you're like, "I would like to have a s… like, backhouse studio…

30:35Jawad MirA…

30:35Jherek Bischoff... And…

30:35Jawad MirYeah

30:35Jherek Bischoff... Things to make things more comfortable and easier," and, it's, it's n… doesn't s… seem to ever be easy.

30:45Jawad MirI don't think it ever will be, right? The, and, not bec… because there's always, there was a speech by Matthew McConaughey. I'm sure you've seen it. It was the Oscar speech. I think he won for the Dallas…

30:55Jherek BischoffRight

30:55Jawad Mir... Boys.

30:56Jherek BischoffOh, right. I remember that film

30:57Jawad Mir... I think that was the movie it's called. He talked about, I mean, I can't rephrase it, but the, because he articulated it so well, but the genesis of it was, you know, you get to a certain point in your life, whether you're 15, 25, 35, you're always chasing a hero that you will never meet, and that hero is me, right? Like…

31:17Jherek BischoffYeah. Right

31:17Jawad Mir... Because the moment you achieve the big dream, let's say if your dream or my dream or anyone else's dream is to be on the Oscar stage to get…

31:27Jherek BischoffSure

31:27Jawad Mir... You know, Best Director, Best Music Composer, and if you get it very quickly, Ben Affleck said that, he said that… ... You know, the, he feels that, I know a lot of people might say, "Okay, well, he's saying that now because he got the Oscar," but I truly believe…

31:40Jherek BischoffYeah

31:40Jawad Mir... What he says, is that he, they got the Oscar when they were 18, 19, or 20 for Good Will Hunting. And he said…

31:46Jherek BischoffRight

31:46Jawad Mir... "It was a big mistake that we got the Oscar at that young age. We should have…" ... "worked harder to be where we are in later in life." And I think that…

31:56Jherek BischoffYeah

31:56Jawad Mir... It's not to make yourself feel better or me make myself feel better…

31:59Jherek BischoffSure

31:59Jawad Mir... But at the same time, I think it's, that's important, that struggle. Because then what's the purpose of life then? Like, what are you…

32:05Jherek BischoffYeah. Totally

32:05Jawad Mir... What are you go, what are you, what are you aiming for if you achieve what you want?

32:08Jherek BischoffAbsolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean

32:12Jawad MirIt's hard, though. I know. I know. I get it.

32:14Jherek BischoffIt is hard, and like, I, for the longest time, the biggest goal for me was just, like, if I can have four walls and eat three times a day, like, that is the ultimate success. You know?

32:33Jawad MirYeah.

32:33Jherek BischoffLike, that is as, like, if I can get that and with just doing music, that's, that's it. Like, that's all I need. But now as, you know, things, you get older and you realize, like, oh…

32:48Jawad MirI get it.

32:48Jherek Bischoff... I would actually like to have a car and to have, like…

32:51Jawad MirYeah

32:51Jherek Bischoff... Health insurance and shit, you know? But yeah, I mean, the, one thing that, like, that all that stuff taught me, which has been interesting as I have found a little more, like, financial success or whatever, is that, you know, I worked in such a DIY manner for so long. Like, just because I had to. I had to teach myself how to mix, how to write, how to, do everything. And that's all stuff, like, now at, like, now that I have the actual tools to make the stuff, I'm having to, like, retrain my brain, like, you know…

33:48Jawad MirYeah

33:48Jherek Bischoff... That there are…

33:51Jawad MirTools available

33:51Jherek Bischoff... I now have access to the easier ways of doing the things and, like, you know, for instance, I'll be working on, like, playing guitar and struggling to get the right tone, and I'll have, like, six microphones on it, like, trying to find a way, and then I'm realizing, like, oh, it's 'cause my guitar is a piece of garbage. And sometimes it sounds cool in context, but, like, if you just want a good guitar, like straight guitar sound, you have to have a good guitar, you know? And then, and then you go, "Oh, I could just, like, buy a guitar," you know? Like, a… and then you buy a guitar, and you go, "Ding," and you go…

34:34Jawad MirYeah

34:34Jherek Bischoff... One microphone, and it sounds great, you know? It's like all these ways that I've had to manipulate my tools to, like, try to sound legit. A… and now having the actual tools and continually reminding myself, like, oh yeah, y… like you're at a spot where you can actually just get the thing that you need to do the thing. It's been an interesting process.

35:07Jawad MirYeah. No, that's true. And I was just talking to, one of the, directors. His name is Dan A… Ateas, I believe is pronounced, his last name.

35:17Jherek BischoffYeah.

35:17Jawad MirHe's done a lot of stuff for, like, directed a lot of stuff for, like, Sopranos, Alias…

35:22Jherek BischoffCool

35:22Jawad Mir... Lost, and a bunch of TV.

35:24Jherek BischoffYeah.

35:24Jawad MirAnd we were talking about this, that how limitations are so necessary because that's what…

35:31Jherek BischoffFor sure

35:31Jawad Mir... Pushes you to come up with things that you probably w… it's, it's just like living in a mansion versus living in a, you know, like, a tent. You will figure…

35:41Jherek BischoffYeah

35:41Jawad Mir... Out a way to live because you have to.

35:44Jherek BischoffNo.

35:44Jawad MirSo those things are…

35:45Jherek BischoffAbsolutely

35:45Jawad Mir... Important, but at the same time, I agree with you. Like, you get a certain age, you want that comfort, you want that little bit of easiness and, you know, because you can't…

35:52Jherek BischoffYeah

35:52Jawad Mir... Do everything.

35:54Jherek BischoffWell, also with, you know, film and TV, you have to work pretty quickly. And…

36:00Jawad MirYeah

36:00Jherek Bischoff... The amount of times where I, like, get a piece of gear, like a synthesizer or something like that, and you find a preset, and you go, boom, and then you recognize that sound and you go, like, "Oh, man, it's that easy to do that thing?" Like…

36:16Jawad MirYeah

36:16Jherek Bischoff... That thing that you hear, and I would've, like, you know, figured out a way to make that sound but through the most… Like, ridiculous, chain of…

36:29Jawad MirYeah

36:29Jherek Bischoff... Of gear and stuff. And then, having the piece of gear and being able to just do the thing, I realized, like, yeah, I can, I can get to the same place going DIY or having the…

36:47Jawad MirYeah

36:47Jherek Bischoff... The thing. Having the thing just makes everything faster and easier.

36:51Jawad MirYeah.

36:52Jherek BischoffYou know, it's like, okay…

36:53Jawad MirWell, time is money.

36:54Jherek BischoffTime is money, exactly. So yeah, it's been like the last five, mostly, like, five years I've been kind of like realizing, oh, I can invest in myself, like, as a business and, like, make my studio decent instead of horrible. So

37:18Jawad MirYeah

37:18Jherek Bischoff... Yeah, it's been interesting.

37:20Jawad MirWell, it's interesting now with AI too, right? I'm, I'm not sure if you've…

37:23Jherek BischoffRight

37:23Jawad Mir... I've, I've come across certain videos. So, there's this guy, I don't know what his handle is, he just kind of popped up on my feed. He would take, singers like my, Rihanna or Beyoncé… ... Or Taylor Swift, and he will use their voice to replicate an AI and have them sing in a completely different language as if…

37:46Jherek BischoffWow

37:46Jawad Mir... They, that was their native language.

37:49Jherek BischoffWow.

37:50Jawad MirI mean, it's crazy what you can do now, you know.

37:53Jherek BischoffAbsolutely.

37:53Jawad MirForget presets now. It's, like, another level.

37:56Jherek BischoffYeah. Yeah

37:57Jawad Mir... But in, you know, just to sort of wrap things up, man, like what's, what's…

38:01Jherek BischoffSure

38:01Jawad Mir... On your plate next, that, if you're able to talk about, or are you taking a break? Are you doing any concerts, films?

38:08Jherek BischoffSure, yeah. So I have no other films, in line at the moment. I'm hoping that changes, but, yeah, the industry is just so bonkers right now. It's, it's, it's slow for a lot of folks it seems. But yeah, wanting to do more film. But I, yeah, I'm doing the Great Gatsby as a stage theater show. It's a just play, out in Sweden next year, so getting started on that. Producing a couple records for friends of mine. That's happening. And let's see. I do all these, or, that fella Ben Folds, who, has become a buddy, he does a series out at the Kennedy Center in DC

39:11Jherek Bischoff... Where they bring in, like three different artists per night, and it's usually people that, haven't or hadn't, worked with orchestra before, like Regina Spektor or at the time Jon Batiste or, people like that. And, they each played three or four songs with the National Symphony Orchestra and, it's a amazing, cool night. And I've become, like, one of the main arrangers for that event, so it's, it's really great. I've gotten to do stuff for Regina and Jon B… Batiste and William Shatner. I've, I've actually wrote, four pieces of music that, were under these, stories about his childhood and going up into space and all this stuff.

40:17Jherek BischoffAnd it's just a amazing playground to, you know, have the, that orchestra as my little sandbox of going like, "Oh, let's try this out. Ooh, you guys have a pipe organ. Let's, let's throw that in there." You know, just, like... And Ben and I see very eye to eye in that world of, like, you know, when people from the rock and pop world work with orchestra, oftentimes it's just, like, still a rock band playing and the orchestra is just this, like, playing long notes behind it, and it's like, why are y'all even there? But with Ben…... He's like, the orchestra is the band. No drums, no guitars, no anything. Just the orchestra. And so it makes it super fun…

41:13Jawad MirNice

41:14Jherek Bischoff... To try to make these pop songs work with just this orchestra. So doing more of that stuff and yeah, kind of just following the energy.

41:27Jawad MirThat's awesome, man. That's really great.

41:29Jherek BischoffYeah

41:29Jawad Mir... Thank you so much, Eric. I appreciate it, man.

41:32Jherek BischoffYeah.

41:32Jawad MirHow do I pronounce your last name? Is it Bischoff?

41:35Jherek BischoffBischoff, yep, you got it.

41:36Jawad MirBischoff.

41:37Jherek BischoffYeah.

41:37Jawad MirAwesome. Yeah, thanks so much… ... Man. It was really lovely chatting. Your work…

41:43Jherek BischoffYeah

41:43Jawad Mir... And the film, Exhibiting Forgiveness is great. The film is awesome.

41:48Jherek BischoffThank you.

41:48Jawad MirAnd I'm so glad that you took that initiative of hiring people at your own dime and two days to produce something that ended up being pretty much the score. Yeah.

41:58Jherek BischoffYeah.

41:59Jawad MirAn amazing story.

41:59Jherek BischoffFantastic.

41:59Jawad MirI've never heard anything like that, but that's, that tells…... That shows that your dedication to your craft and to your work, so truly appreciate that.

42:08Jherek BischoffThanks, man. Appreciate you.

42:09Jawad MirThank you, buddy.

42:11Jherek BischoffYeah.

42:11Jawad MirHave fun in Sweden. We'll talk to…

42:13Jherek BischoffHope to get back to…

42:14Jawad MirSorry

42:14Jherek Bischoff... I hope to get back to Toronto soon.

42:16Jawad MirYeah, let me know if you're here. You have…

42:18Jherek BischoffYeah

42:19Jawad Mir... My email through your agent. If you wanna reach out…

42:21Jherek BischoffCool

42:22Jawad Mir... Feel free to. But I'm sure we'll talk again…

42:24Jherek BischoffYeah

42:24Jawad Mir... About some of your work.

42:26Jherek BischoffYeah, sounds good, man. All right, thanks a lot.

42:28Jawad MirAll right, Eric. Take care. Bye.

42:29Jherek BischoffAll right. Peace.