'American Gangster', Art Director, Sonja Klaus

0:09Jawad MirGood afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast: The Making of Stories. I'm your host Jawad Nir. Today, my guest is Sonia Claus. I've had the pleasure of speaking to her a couple of times on this podcast for Gladiator and for Prometheus, both Ridley Scott-directed films. And today she's here to talk about another Ridley Scott film starring Denzel Washington and Russell Crowe. Yes, you guessed it right, American Gangster. And, Sonia dived into some wonderful stories, including of a story of a butler, which you'll hear in the podcast. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Sonia Claus for American Gangster. I'm so glad that you agreed to talk about, American Gangster. You know, I... Starring Russell Crowe and Denzel Washington, directed by Ridley Scott. I remember I saw it, but I forgot it completely. And then I just re-watched it, on Sunday, and boy, what an amazing film. I mean, it's, it's called…

1:09Sonja KlausIt is a really good script

1:10Jawad Mir... It's called American Gangster, but other than the little gangsting part, it... There's nothing to it…

1:16Sonja Klaushuh

1:16Jawad Mir... About that, right? It's just…

1:18Sonja KlausNo

1:18Jawad Mir... Totally different.

1:19Sonja KlausYeah.

1:19Jawad MirBut yeah, no, I obviously you had worked with Ridley on Gladiator before that and with Russell and, just, you know, if you wanna share any stories or how your involvement or…

1:34Sonja KlausSo it was quite interesting how, Ridley likes to, surprise you when he wants to give you a job. So he's not like, someone who'll just ring you up and go, "Oh, hey, I've got another film. Do you wanna do it?" He doesn't sort of... He probably does a bit more of that now as he's older, but when he was younger, he didn't do it like that. So he sent me a text message, and all it said was, "Prepare for flight." That's all it said. And, you know, and I…

2:09Jawad MirTeasing you

2:09Sonja Klaus... And I... Yeah. And so, I texted him back and I was like, que… you know, I just did te… question mark. And so he just went, "You'll need your bathing suit." Right? And that was it. That's all I got. And then about, oh, I think it was about a week later or something, so I just got on with my life and everything and didn't think anything more of it because I knew, you know, I knew he was trying to tell me that he was going somewhere or we were gonna go on a recce or whatever it was, and I didn't know what it was. And he then,.. So then he phoned me at home and he said, "Oh, I've got this script. It's called American Gangster and, it's gonna have Denzel in it. And you know Tony, my brother, you know, he's a big fan of Denzel's." And he said, "You know, we've gotta go to America, we've gotta New… go to New York and we're gonna go to Thailand we think."

3:10Sonja KlausHe said, "Have you been to Thailand?" Well, I had been to Thailand, and I was like, "Yeah, I've, I've, I've been there. It's amazing place." Anyway, so long story short, I was... I had my bag packed to go to New York and then the Teamsters got involved, and I think you probably know where this conversation is going. Despite the fact that I have Amer… that I am American and I have an American passport, I am not a member of the New York Union. So what they said was, they said to Ridley, "Oh, she can come and Janty Yates can come and Arthur Max can come, but Janty Yates and Sonia Claus, because they're not a member of the union," 'cause Arthur was a member of the union, "they have to have a shadow." So Ri… so I had all this explained to me on the phone and I was like, "What does that mean?" They said, "Oh, well, we have to employ another costume designer that's union, and we have to employ another set decorator to cover you."

4:11Sonja KlausI was like, "Okay, that's kind of weird." And they're like, "Yeah, that's just how it works." Anyway, then I had my... And then I got told, "Pack your bag, you're flying on Monday to New York." You know, off we g… off we were going. Ridley calls me on the phone on the Sunday night and he says, "Darling, I don't know how to tell you this, but the Teamsters have come back and they've said they won't accept that. They're now not accepting that. They're saying if you come and if Janty comes, if you come and Janty comes, they're gonna shut the movie down." And I was like, "Wow, that's pretty aggressive, isn't it?"

4:49Jawad MirIt is.

4:50Sonja KlausAnd, he said, "So they've said only one of you can come." So I said, "Well, you've gotta take Janty obviously 'cause she's the costume designer. You've gotta take Janty." And I said, "So take Janty." And he, and he was really upset and I said, "Just take Janty then. Take Janty." So he was like, "I need to... I'll get back to you. I'm gonna get back to you." Anyway, I was very upset as you can imagine. I was like, "Wow, that's pretty shitty." And then about three days later I get a phone call from Branco Lustig, God rest his soul, he's no longer here anymore, but he was the producer, and he rang me and went, "Sonia, it's Branco. I'm ringing to say that, we want you to go, have a holiday," like this. And I said, "A holiday?" "Yes. We're sending you to Thailand on a holiday. We're all gonna meet you in Thailand, and we want you to meet us in Thailand. We're gonna... I'm gonna fly you to Bangkok, and I've got you nice room, nice room, very nice room, and we're gonna fly you there and you wait for us."

5:50Sonja KlausI'm like…... "Okay then. All right." So I said to my husband, "they want me to sort of go to Tha… go to Bangkok." And he said, "Well, how long, how, do you know how long you're going for?" I said, "Haven't got a clue. No idea." So I get this message from Branco… And he said to me, "We're going to give you 16 weeks prep." 16 weeks…

6:15Jawad MirWow

6:15Sonja Klaus... Prep like this. And he said, "But we're gonna meet you next week. We're gonna meet you at the end of the week, all of us. We're gonna come out on a recce. We're gonna stay in the Mandarin Oriental. I've got you a suite with your own butler, and we're gonna meet you in the Mandarin Oriental. We're flying you out. You get there first, and then we're gonna come and join you." So I get out to the... I get out to Bangkok, get picked up in this big, fat, black Mercedes, whisked off to the hotel, go there, and they introduce me to my butler. 'Cause I thought he was joking. I thought it was a... I thought he was joking. He wasn't joking. Anyways, this man said, "I'm your... I'm at your service. You have anything that you need at all," and I was like, ".." And then I was met by this other man, and he said, "Oh, I'm the line producer and the production manager here," and he said, "Anything you need?" And I said, "Well," I said, "So how does it work with the sort of per diems? And we're in the, you know, Mandarin Oriental Hotel, and it's not cheap, is it? It's, it..." I said, "are you giving me a per diem?" He said, "No, Branko said you can do whatever you like and book whatever you want and go wherever you want at all, and he'll pay it, pay it."

7:23Sonja KlausSo I said,.. And he looked at me and said, "Yes, that includes the spa." And I said, "Well, do you know when they're coming?" And he said, "Oh, in a few days." So I was on my own with a butler in this massive suite in the Mandarin Oriental, which is luxurious. And they said, "Oh, we've taken the liberty of booking you a few massages and, you know, some things for you to do, and we've made you... We've got dinner for you, and we thought you might like to meet a few people that could possibly come and work with you tonight." So they'd done a private dinner out on this terrace. I mean, I couldn't make it up. Anyway, so I…

8:00Jawad MirWow

8:00Sonja Klaus... Get this message, this note in my room when I go upstairs. I finally, I get upstairs and I go, and there's a note, and it's from Ridley, and it says, "I hope you packed your bathing suit. This is your treat. Enjoy your holiday. We're coming, but we're gonna give you a really long prep. Enjoy." So I got 16 weeks prep. I stayed in Bangkok. I met them. They came. We went on this recce. We went up to Chiang Mai and Chiang Rai, and I even organized a recce on elephants. I think I told you that, didn't I, about the recce on elephants?

8:39Jawad MirYeah, I think you did, but that's okay.

8:40Sonja KlausAs a 40.

8:41Jawad MirGo on. Yeah, go on.

8:42Sonja KlausAnyway, we... So I... So he said, "Oh yeah, we're gonna go." Anyway, off we go and we do all this recce stuff, and then we all get back to Bangkok. And I said, "Oh,.." I said, "Do I... So what's happening?" They said, "Oh, well, we thought you might want another week or so in Bangkok with the butler." I get to have a butler. So I had another week in the Mandarin Oriental fannying about, like, going to the spa. I met some people. And then I said to Branko, 'cause I was like... I emailed him and I said, "Well, what's my budget?" And he said, "What do you need?"

9:18Jawad MirThat's a nice w…

9:18Sonja KlausNo one, no one's ever…

9:19Jawad Mir... Way

9:20Sonja Klaus... No one's ever said that…

9:20Jawad MirYeah

9:21Sonja Klaus... To me. And then Branko was so lovely. We went to Chiang Mai, and he said to me, "Do you want the family to come?" So he flew my family out. He flew my mother, my husband, my son, and my niece Holly, and he flew them all out to Chiang Mai. He put them up in... My mother had a lovely suite. My husband came to stay with me, and Holly and Conrad had a room, and he organized. They had their own guide, and they stayed for a whole week or whatever it was, 10 days, and Branko paid for all of it.

9:53Jawad MirWow.

9:54Sonja KlausAnd I will tell you, that doesn't happen on films, 'cause I know…

9:58Jawad MirNo, I... 100%, yeah

9:58Sonja Klaus... It doesn't. But that was because the teamsters had said, "You can't come to New York," and that was their way of saying, "We're sorry."

10:09Jawad MirYeah.

10:09Sonja KlausYou wouldn't get that now. People would just go, "Oh, it's tough. You can't come." But that is... That... I'm telling you that because that's how I was treated. I was treated really well, and it was... You know, I was treated like a princess, and that was to say, "I'm sorry." And when we did the film, it was quite difficult, I would have to say, because I had to make Chiang Mai look like Bangkok. And then if you watch the film, you'll notice that it's a progression of time. It doesn't, it doesn't happen just in one year. It jumps.

10:50Sonja KlausAnd so when you see those mules with those packs, obviously they did that over time. You know, that was several years of them doing all that opium and doing that whole thing. It wasn't just one day. So we had to keep using the same mules, but I had to keep changing the way that they looked, 'cause of course it had to show... It had to be different. You know, different shaped packs, different types of things. And the mules that we were using were the ones that the army used. So the Thai army have their own set of mules that they use, 'cause they use those to go all up and, you know, and to get…

11:23Sonja Klaus... The, sort of, to find the opium and, you know, 'cause that's the only way you can get about. You can't, you can't get about in a, in a Jeep or four-wheel drive vehicle. And so it was quite strange, 'cause a lot of my crew that I had in Chiang Mai were actually opium pickers, and you could see they were, 'cause they had... The women in particular had very black round their, all round their fingers where they'd been... They take a knife, it's curved, and it's, and it's called a rude word, the knife. I won't say it, but it is actually called the C-word.

11:59Sonja KlausThat is actually what it is called. That is actually what it's called. And of course I kept going, "Oh, why do they... Oh, why do you keep saying..." And they were... And 'cause that was the word. And they use it, and it's curved because it scrapes up the, on the outside of the opium, the poppy when it forms its, you know, the ball like this. The opium, when it's ready, when the resin is ready, it oozes out from the top And so they scrape it like that, and then they have a little pouch, and they scrape it and put it into the pouch, and that's how they collect the opium, the resin, you know, the resin that oozes out. Yeah. So I had all these people who'd worked in the Golden Triangle, and they came to build the set for me. So that set that you see in the film where the colonel lives, that didn't exist. There was nothing. That was a peanut field. It was peanuts were being grown. So I had peanut farmers building that building that I... 'Cause I basically did the whole of Thailand.

13:00Sonja KlausI wa… didn't have anyone supervising me. I was left on my tw… my own devices with the butler in Bangkok. And, I was allowed one... I flew out my prop master, Terry Wells Sr., and I then said, "I'm gonna need a painter," because I couldn't, no matter how hard I tried, I tried to find a good painter, and there were a couple of good painters, but there was some other film in I don't know where it was, and they'd obviously gone off. So I said, "Can I have my painter J… can I have Jamie?" So it was just Terry, Jamie, and I. And I ha… I decided that, I sent some drawings back, to Ridley to look at, say, "You know, I'm thinking of building this Thai hou… you know, like this size, and gonna have all these things outside." 'Cause he had to lift it up off the ground because underneath is where all the opium was being done, where they were doing the packs underneath. You see that in the film. You can see… Yeah... All the sort of... And it was fascinating 'cause I had to learn all about how they did it back then, you know, h… 'cause they obviously didn't have machinery.

14:00Sonja KlausThey didn't have fancy cooking pots. They had woks. You know, it was kind of... And it was a very interesting process learning about how they did it, and you realized about how massive the poppy-growing industry was in that part of the world, and was while we were there, actually, up in the Golden Triangle, you know, up towards Burma. And I, but I... The thing was, even though I was surrounded by these peanut farmers and gangsters and opium people, I never felt threatened. You never feel threatened in Thailand. You never feel scared or nervous, and they are just the most delightful people. They... I think 'cause there's a lot of Buddhism, and I, and I think there's a lot of that, and so they're very gentle people. They're very calm people, and they're delight… you know, they're delightful. And it was, for me, out of some of the films I've done, I'd have to say that 16 weeks prep and then we did a six-week shoot, five-week shoot, was just the best, one of the best experiences I've ever had, which is why when you ask me about it and wanna talk about it, I'm like, it was quite something.

15:11Sonja KlausAnd we all have those times, don't we, in, when we've worked on shows, and hopefully will again. You have moments where it's just so beautiful, and it's so amazing, and, you know, you feel you're happy, and everybody around you is just delightful, and it... That's what it was like. And, you know, that comes with relationships. You know, my... Obviously I had a relationship with Ridley, but I had a relationship with Branco, and we had a wonderful DOP on that. His name was Haris Stavridis. And I think you probably know that he sadly passed away., I will say, he did like eating... He did have an appetite, and but he was the most amazing human. He was just delightful, and Ridley loved him. I mean, he loved him, and it was just very sad that he sadly, you know, his body just couldn't cope anymore.

16:13Sonja KlausBecause he was a very large man, you know, and, I think he just... But so talented. Oh, so talented. And, you know, to be with all those... We had great cast, you know. I mean, it was great, the cast, and when you see that street that's supposed to be in Bangkok and Denzel's sitting in the market, that was basically a shitty high street in Chiang Mai, you know, quite... It wasn't amazing, and I did that. That was four weeks of going, and I had to re… put up all those signage and all the lighting. I lit the whole thing. I mean, I had to do a curve so it went 'round. So they started on one side, then they came 'round the corner, and then they went down the street. You know, it was massive, and I had a... You know, I had to get a crane brought up from Bangkok, and everyone was like, "Oh, gotta get a crane in from Bangkok." Big deal. Like it's so... And I was like, "I'll just ring the butler, get him to sort that." And then... Yeah. But it was a big deal. It was a big deal, and now people just laugh, and they go, "Oh, don't they have loads of those?"

17:14Sonja KlausAnd I'm like, "I don't think you quite understand. They didn't have stuff like that." And I was doing enormous neon signs, you know, and putting them up, and loads of light boxes. And, I mean, I think they probably did, like, 150, 160 signs down that street. And then all the market people, that was hilarious because you can't,.. It's not like you can say to them, "Oh, can you come on Monday for filming?" Right? They decide if they're gonna come on Monday. It's not like... So they might not come, and so you have to go and schmooze them, so I had to schmooze them over two weeks. And because I did so much schmoo… schmoozing and because of my accent, and I, my hair was quite fair then, and I was tanned. So this one woman who was cooking beetles, she was cooking beetles and worms, which was a delicacy. They love it. Of course. And caterpillars. You know, they were, they were cooking... She was cooking it, and she one day, she just went, "Sharon Stone," like that.

18:18Sonja KlausAnd I was look… looking, and I'm going, "Sharon Stone's here?" And she went, "Sharon Stone," and she pointed at me, and then everybody in the market was like, "Ah."... One!" Like that. And I was like, "Oh my God, they think I'm bloody Sharon Stone." So the line producer thought it was so hilarious that he changed my pass and put…

18:39Jawad MirTo Sharon

18:40Sonja Klaus... A photo of Sharon Stone and wrote Sharon Stone. Because they wouldn't let it go. They were like, "Hi." And they wanted their photo with me, and they were like, "Oh, a photo with Sharon Stone." Anyway, I... So I went with it. I was like, "What was I gonna do?" I was like, "I don't sound like Sharon Stone. I don't really look like Sharon Stone. I'm just gonna go with it." And so because I went with it, they all came on the Monday for the filming 'cause they thought Sharon Stone was gonna be there. 'Cause word had got out that Sharon Stone was in town.

19:13Jawad MirThat's hilarious.

19:14Sonja KlausAnd I was like, "I wonder why they randomly picked Sharon Stone." It's like…

19:17Jawad MirWell…

19:17Sonja Klaus... How random is that? And then I was like, "Has she been to Chiang Mai?" Anyway, and it came from the beetle lady, you know, and everyone was like... I was like, "This..." Ridley said, "Who started that rumor?" And I said, "That lady over there." And he said, "What? The beetle lady?" And I said, "Yes." And it was,.. And, you know, the thing is I... All those things that happen to you in your life are all, you know, they're all part of life's, you know, excitement and storytelling, as we, you know, the word we used earlier. And I think for me, that film, there was an awful lot of that, and I met some incredible people. And I think, you know, they just were so willing and so great. And, you know, when we had the peanut, you know, when I got told, "You have got peanut farmers as your chippies," you know, most people would go, "S… what? What?" And I was like, "Oh, no. 'Cause they probably know how to build a Thai house." Well, of course they know how to build a Thai house, and you've seen it in the film, and it wasn't that bad.

20:18Jawad MirYeah.

20:18Sonja KlausAnd it had all the teak floor in it, and, you know, it was amazing. And we did all the buildings outside, and we got an old generator, and Terry managed to get it working. You know, we had that going. And the mules was a whole other thing, and they called me Jungle Barbie. So the crew from America decided, from New York, decided that I was Jungle Barbie, 'cause I was the only one that would wrestle the mules. And I did keep telling them all the time, 'cause they all kept going on their phones round the mules and standing at the back of the mules, and I kept... I... And it was on the call sheet, "Please don't go on your phones on set, and please don't stand behind the mules. We've got a lot of mules on set. Please don't stand behind the mules. If you wanna go near the mules, can you either speak to these people," and of course my name was on there. They was like, "Can you speak to these people and they will, you know, help you, and blah. But there should be no reason for you to stand by the mules." Did they listen, do you think? No, they didn't.

21:08Jawad MirOf course not.

21:08Sonja KlausSo one of the guys who was in the sound department, on his phone's ringing, "Hello? Hello?" Like that. And the next thing you know is dunk, and he gets kicked in the face by a mule and passes out.

21:20Jawad MirOoh.

21:20Sonja KlausWell, I, and when he came round, I just looked at him and I went, "I think I did say don't stand on your phone behind the..." And it broke his, some of his teeth. 'Cause you can imagine a kick in the side of the face.

21:32Jawad MirYeah.

21:32Sonja KlausAnd he was lucky it didn't…

21:33Jawad MirAnd a very solid foot

21:34Sonja Klaus... Well, lucky it didn't take his jaw out.

21:36Jawad MirYeah.

21:36Sonja KlausAnd anyway, so that stopped them, but they... I don't know. I found it quite fun because quite a lot of the people from New York had never been to the jungle before. And, so they wore very inappropriate clothing, and they did lots of things like put their bags down on the floor in the jungle while we were on recce. And again, they were given information, "Please don't put your bag down on the floor of the jungle." I think you probably know why you don't put your bag down on the floor in the jungle, because you're gonna have a millipede or a centipede that's about that big…

22:19Sonja Klaus... And the size of my wrist, is gonna attach itself to your bag. Not to mention the spiders, not to mention all the other snakes that can go in, not to mention the scorpions, not to mention all the stuff. So what do you think happened? We'd be walking along and I'd go, "can you just stand still a second?" And they'd be like, "What? What? What? What? What?" "Just stand still a second. One second." As this... And you know, the centipedes, they're, they are like that.

22:47Jawad MirYeah.

22:47Sonja KlausLike, they are massive.

22:49Jawad MirYeah.

22:49Sonja KlausAnd you'd be like, you don't wanna get bit, stung by one of them, 'cause it can actually, it's nasty. And they were... And I did find it quite amusing because they had spray, you know, DEET spray for the mosquitoes, and the mosquitoes are quite big. I mean, and they dive-bomb you at, you know, at certain times. As you know, in the even… they come, don't they? They just come. And you can hear them.

23:10Jawad MirBzz. Yeah.

23:13Sonja KlausLook, so they all had their spray that they were given, and they were, like, spraying the air. And I was like, I said, "No. You need to put that..." And they said, "Oh, but it smells." And I was like, "Yeah, you need to put that on you. Here, let me help you. You need to put it on you, 'cause it's no good spraying it in the air 'cause that's not gonna stop the mosquitoes biting you."

23:33Jawad MirOf course. Oh my God, that is hilarious.

23:34Sonja KlausAnd I did en… I did enjoy that part, 'cause I thought it's quite funny when you go with people who've never, ever been... You know, some of them had never left the States.

23:43Jawad MirYeah.

23:43Sonja KlausYou know? And but they found themselves on this movie, so it must've been a bit of a shock w… with them with Ridley Scott directing it. And then they turn up and they're in, you know, mules that kick you in the face if you go on your phone, and they've got centipedes that are about a foot long, and they're stuck to the side of their rucksack.

23:59Jawad MirUgh. Yeah.

24:00Sonja KlausAnd it, and…

24:01Jawad MirI can't stand bugs.

24:03Sonja KlausAnd it was a great movie, you know? And it was,.. And all the stuff that was shot in the States, I had to, Ridley wanted me to be involved. So I had photos sent to me, and I had to get people to buy stuff, and, you know, s… I had to get sent, things sent. And, you know, he wanted me to not be part of it. So I kind of got very involved doing that, you know, because it was all part of the look. He wanted the, he wanted the film to…

24:28Jawad MirOf course

24:28Sonja Klaus... You know, to be a unit. So I got…

24:31Jawad MirWhich it, which it was, by the way.

24:33Sonja KlausYeah, it was. You, it was a very good... You couldn't... It Everything about it had consistency, which was good. And, you know, and it was, it was quite... You know, it was, it was fun, but it was very hard work. You know, it was, very hot, and in, y… you know, it wasn't for the sort of faint-hearted. And, you know, I got looked after, but it was, it was quite a slog. You know, I was starting at 6:00 in the morning and finish it… finishing at 10 o'clock at night, you know, mostly six, seven days a week, 'cause it was just a lot to do. And during the heat, when it's really hot, you know, at lunchtime, kind of like for a couple of hours, you just can't really do very much. So you feel like, "Oh, I've gotta..." You know, and you know with everything, like the bar, when I did that bar, you know, the go-go bar, 'cause I had to do a lot of sets. There were a lot of sets that had to be made from nothing. So I was looking, I was recceing and trying to put it all together and everything.

25:33Sonja KlausAnd then because the unit were gonna literally turn up like the week before, and they were gonna have about four days prep, and then they were gonna start filming. So, you know, you kind of need to make sure that everything's ready for when they come.

25:47Jawad MirRight.

25:47Sonja KlausAnd, you know, and I quite like being left on my own 'cause it was sort of, you know, I didn't, I didn't... I mean, I just got on with it, you know, 'cause you do, don't you? Just get on with it. You're like, "I've gotta get on with it. It's gotta happen."

25:59Jawad MirYeah. You should have, you should have used the butler to assist you who had the black…

26:03Sonja KlausI should have got my butler. Should have had my butler on speed dial. You know, there was actually a button in my room that I could press for the butler.

26:14Jawad MirI'm sure there was. Well, that's why you have a butler, so you can…

26:17Sonja KlausOh my God, it was hilarious. And I, my friend went to stay in the, in the Mandarin about like last year, and I went, "Did you have a butler button?" And she went, "What are you talking about?" And I went, "There's a button." She said, "Darling, we didn't have that type of suite." And I was like, "Oh, sorry, right, yeah." 'Cause I think it's quite a lot of money.

26:37Jawad MirYeah, 100%, 100%. I know it.

26:38Sonja KlausOh, but it was... And it was a re… you know, and what makes it really great is you watch the movie, and it is actually a really good movie.

26:48Jawad MirIt is. It is. And I... So I'm watching the movie, right? And, what came to my mind was Heat, you know, where De Niro and Pacino have this face-off and towards, I think it's, like, maybe, like, the second half of the film. And I'm waiting for this to happen because they kinda d… are in the same space when he's going to the Muhammad Ali, game.

27:10Sonja KlausYeah.

27:10Jawad MirBut I don't know if they... I don't see a shot of them together, so I don't know if they were physically there.

27:15Sonja KlausNo.

27:15Jawad MirBut when they actually got... They see each other at the end, and I'm like, "This is it? Like, this..." And then the whole thing about how he nails down people, I thought that was really brilliant. I mean, that itself... I mean, Russell Crowe and Denzel Washington were pretty big names even back then. It's not like it's…

27:31Sonja KlausYeah, they were. Yeah

27:32Jawad Mir... You know, big…

27:32Sonja KlausOh, they were very... They were... Russell at that time, you know, 'cause he had done Gladiator already.

27:37Jawad MirBeautiful Mind.

27:38Sonja KlausBeautiful Mind

27:39Jawad Mir... Inside Man.

27:39Sonja KlausAnd he was up there.

27:40Jawad MirYeah.

27:40Sonja KlausYou know, he was, he was up there. Yeah, so he was big. You know, and Denzel is always... Gives you know, he's great what e… everything he does. You know, he was, he was... He does exactly what it says on the tin. You know, and he cracks on, and he's just great. And I think what Ridley w… you know, I think he knows Denzel from his brother, you know?

28:05Sonja KlausAnd obviously Russell is like a sort of, you know, he's like another extension of family really, Russell is. You know, they have a sort of, quite fun relationship together. And I know... And they both would do anything for each other, you know? They're, they're very fond of each other. There might be a little bit of sort of like fray, but ultimately at the end of the day, they're very fond of each other. And Russell's always good for, you know, every part he plays, he gives you, he gives you a character, doesn't he? He c… he just seems to pull another one out of the bag.

28:39Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. He, I didn't know…

28:42Sonja KlausAnd every s…

28:42Jawad MirSorry, go on.

28:43Sonja KlausNo. No, carry on.

28:45Jawad MirNo, I was just saying I didn't know he had done another film with Ridley, which I just found out about yesterday called…

28:48Sonja KlausYeah, The Body of Lies.

28:50Jawad MirNo, that plus another one, The Good Year.

28:53Sonja KlausOh, yeah.

28:53Jawad MirI had never heard of that film.

28:55Sonja KlausThat's the one I designed.

28:55Jawad MirOkay, so you've done that…

28:56Sonja KlausI designed that one

28:57Jawad Mir... Okay. But yeah, no, obviously when you work on so many films together, and then there must be some rapport that you have that you wanna work over and over again, right? There's that shorthand and then there's, there's that sort of…

29:08Sonja KlausI bet... Someone asked me actually the other day, I went in to see someone about an interview, and they, were looking at my CV and they said, "Oh, so you started as a set decorator." And I said, "Well, actually, no, I didn't. I actually went in as an art director at the beginning, and I then started designing quite quickly 'cause I was always... That's what I w… was. You know, I was the thea… I did theater and, you know, it was natural progression. And it was just through several things that happened, you know, that changed, what happened in my career. One was my construction manager sadly died at the age of 30, within six weeks. He had a, he was sick, and he died, and my dad died. And, my dad died when I was, 31, 32, and Hamish died.

29:55Jawad MirOh, wow.

29:57Sonja KlausAnd, you know, Papa died, and then Hamish died, and I found that really,.. You know, my father was 65, he died of cancer, and it was all a bit... And he was in America, and it was, I was here and, you know. And my parents weren't together, but it was just all of that happened and I lost... I just, I don't know, I, you d… you lose something. I can't explain it. I was so upset about Hamish. I just took it m… badly. And, so I floundered about and I just, I kind of, I did art dir… I art directed loads of commercials and pop pr… promos, which I'd been doing anyway, but I kept doing that. But I didn't really... I kind of lost my way a little bit 'cause I was a bit shocked about 'cause I did everything with Hamish, you know? And, And then losing Papa. You know, it was weird. So I don't know, I told this person, I said, "Oh," I said, "Well, I had a bit of a th… a, s… you know, a bit of a tragedy that happened," and I said, "It affects you." And I said, "Then I went and I... I... Long story short, I then met Ridley."

30:59Sonja KlausI met, did other things, but I then eventually met Ridley, and I was, when I met Ridley, I was 30... By that time, how old was I when I met Ridley? I was 36, when I met Ridley. And I tri… they said, I… they said, "Oh, so you set decorated for him at the beginning?" And I said, "Yeah, I've actually to... I went backwards." So that's not a progression, that's actually backwards, but…

31:28Sonja Klaus... 'cause the shows were so enormous, you know, there were huge budgets I had. I had millions and millions to spend, and huge crews, and, you know, they were very big shows. And you, y… you have so much responsibility. You know? You… you're kind of like a mini designer yourself, 'cause you're having to design and get things built and w… run workshops and, you know, everything, which you wouldn't do if you were on a sort of BBC show and you were a set decorator, 'cause you would just be going and maybe, you know, on a low budget thing, you'd be renting a bit of furniture…

31:58Jawad MirYeah

31:58Sonja Klaus... And, you know, that kind of thing. But I wasn't, I was doing massive stuff. And when you meet Ridley, you know, they sort of... You know, when you meet him, you know, it was like having the best art teacher I could possibly want to have really. And so when I met him, I didn't know him really, I didn't know who he was, to be honest. I hadn't really watched any of his films. I hadn't. And I was like, "Oh, it's Ridley Scott. Oh, right." And everyone's like, "Oh, it's Ridley Scott." And I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, right." I was a bit like that. I wasn't like, "Oh my God." I di… I wasn't like that at all.

32:36Jawad MirYeah.

32:37Sonja KlausAnd I…

32:37Jawad MirWhich is good I think, because…

32:39Sonja KlausYeah, I wasn't starstruck

32:40Jawad Mir... Sometimes... Yeah, sometimes that backfires.

32:43Sonja KlausYeah, I do, I wasn't starstruck at all. I, in fact, I didn't really understand what the hell was going on. I think you can probably imagine. I w… I, you know, I went on Gladiator, I had four weeks prep to do what I did. I did 19%

32:53Jawad MirYeah

32:53Sonja Klaus... Of the movie, and I had four weeks prep, and it was a ni… you know, it was just, I mean, I don't know, I must've been bonkers. And you, but you meet him and you have this, rapport. That's why, you know, with American Gangster, he just trusted me, you know? And I got put in a country by myself at the beginning, and then I m… I persuaded Branco I need two people with me, 'cause I did. And even the guys who were there, they were like, "You need to, you know, I think you need to bring someone," because just to, just to, you know, 'cause the spread was so, quite big.

33:21Jawad MirYeah.

33:21Sonja KlausIt was a bit of a big spread. And you... I stayed with him. You know, I just, it was like, I don't know, I just learnt so much from him as like, I was like with my, like my pal, you know? And I didn't wanna not be with my pal, and I knew that if I didn't set decorate, 'cause Arthur was designing the stuff, I would... That would be it, and I wouldn't be with my pal. But then he gave me A Good Year to do. He wanted me to do it, and so I did A Good Year. And then I had done Babylon A.D., and then I started getting back into designing again. You know, I kind of got into the thing, and then I did a few more films with Ridley. I think I've done seven or eight.

34:08Sonja KlausAnd then one day, you know, you just get this, and I'm sure you understand it, when you've got to leave the fold because you're just staying in this one place, and I thought, "I'm, I'm re… I'm gonna, I've, I need to get leave and be the designer that I am. I've gotta... 'Cause I'm doing that anyway, I need to leave." And it was very hard leaving, 'cause it was like a loss. It was like I went through a, I was, I went through a death. That's what it felt like. And I cried a lot, and Ridley wasn't happy about it. And we both had a bit of a moment and, he said, "I understand." And since then he's always looked after me though. He gave me Taboo, he gave me Great Expectations, I did A Christmas Carol. He always phones me all the time to check and see I'm all right. You know, I'm hopefully doing this other thing, In God's Name, with him.

35:09Sonja KlausAnd, you know, we are, you know, he is like my other, you know, my dad I never really had. And that's my relationship with him. And I loved every... I've had the best time with my pal ever. And I have other pals…

35:29Jawad MirWow

35:29Sonja Klaus... He's not my only pal. And I make new pals. I make new pals, but he was a spe… he's a special pal. You know, and I, and I artistically, you know, when you're artistic, I'm sure you understand this with what you do too, and with, and if you write and things, and you meet other writers, or you'll meet other people who do things that you do, and there aren't that many that you have this very, like, you get a connection, don't you, immediately with the person? And I had a connection immediately with him because we're quite similar.

36:04Jawad MirYeah

36:04Sonja Klaus... But we're not so similar that we drive each other mad. It's like, we do drive other people mad when we're together. And people used to say, they used to go, "Well, I don't know why any of us are on this recce, 'cause it'd just be the two of you really." And it'd be like…... "Oh, really?" And Ridley would go, "Hehehe," like that. And I'd be like, "Oh, are they? They?" And he'd go, "Yeah, it is a bit like that." And I was like, "Well, they should be listening then, shouldn't they? They wanna find out what we're doing, they should listen." And, you know, and it, and it was only because we were chatting. You know, like... And it's just like that, you know? And it doesn't bother me. And, you know, if he wants to come and dress a set with me, or if he wants to come and do some drawings, or give me some drawings, I'll take them. He draws all the time. I love his drawings. You communicate with drawings. You know, and I have an unusual relationship with him, and I don't have that necessarily with other directors that I've worked with. I have, I can have a conversation thing with words with other directors, and images perhaps that we share, you know, that we look at in books or on the laptop or say something like I could say to you, "Oh, do...

37:13Sonja KlausHave you seen the image of blah?" You know, but with him it's with a pencil and a piece of paper, so it's a bit different. But it's just how it is, and if that's how you need to do the communications with that person, that's how you communicate with that person. And like if I need to communicate with you and I work out how you like to communicate, then you change, don't you, to communicate with you or communicate with, you know, when I just worked with Pablo, how I communicate with him, how I c… you know.

37:40Jawad MirYeah. No, it's, it's, it's true. And you know, the thing with Ridley Scott is, one of the things, he inspires me a lot aside from his work. There is this,.. So I directed my first film about, well, when it came out 10 years ago, so I was like late 30s, right? And I've always sort of grown up with Spielberg, who started his career at the age of God knows what, 10 and 11.

38:09Sonja KlausYeah, I know.

38:10Jawad MirAnd... Right? And I wo… I always wondered like how, you know, there's, do you have enough time to do the films that you wanna do? And then I f… found out that Ridley was doing commercials at the age of 40.

38:25Sonja KlausYeah, he was.

38:26Jawad MirAnd his first film was in his early 40s, which I think was Aliens, the first Alien. May, there may have been one or two before that, I'm not sure. But now he's what, 80 something?

38:38Sonja Klaus88.

38:38Jawad MirEight… 88, and he's spitting out a film every two years.

38:43Sonja KlausHe's doing a, he's filming at the moment in Italy, and he finishes that and then he's going on to do the Bee Gees.

38:48Jawad MirWhich one is he doing right now? I forget.

38:50Sonja KlausHe's doing, what's it... It's got a funny name. It's in the northern part of Italy he's filming.

38:56Jawad MirIs it a period piece?

38:58Sonja KlausI think so, isn't it? Is it? Yes, I think so. He… he's in Italy, he's in the northern part of Italy, and then he finishes that and he goes and does the Bee Gees biopic. That's this y…

39:10Jawad MirYeah, no, I…

39:11Sonja KlausThat's this year. That's what he's doing this year.

39:14Jawad MirLet me just double-check on IMDb. Yeah, so what…

39:16Sonja KlausI can't remember what it's called. It's called…

39:20Jawad MirS…

39:20Sonja KlausI've forgotten what it's called.

39:22Jawad MirI'm just on IMDb. Director. I gotta look it up. Well, he did Gladiator II. Dope Thief? No, that's a TV series. Anyways.

39:35Sonja KlausNo, Dope Thief's come out. That's on Apple. He di… he directed that, episode one. Have you seen that yet?

39:40Jawad MirWhich one?

39:41Sonja KlausDope Thief.

39:42Jawad MirNo, I have not. I didn't even... I'll check it out. I'll check it out. Yeah, no, IMDb doesn't have any update on, what he's working on next, but I'll check out Dope Thief. But going back to what I was saying, so, you know, seeing Ridley Scott starting his career at the age of, you know, film career, obviously there was commercial and all that other stuff before that, at that age, and to be able to do that for 48 years. And I think in the '80s and '90s, he wasn't making many films back to back. But I think as he... I'm just guessing. I have no knowledge of this. You probably know this more than me. 'Cause when you realize that there's just certain amount of time left and you wanna be just constantly making stuff…

40:24Sonja KlausYes

40:24Jawad Mir... I think where he's doing... And he does pretty good job at most of them. I mean, there might be some that I may not like, but overall to be able to produce a, direct a film… ... Of the nature of Gladiator II, Napoleon, you know, the other one that came out, The Last Duel, the House of Gucci and all that stuff, is quite spectacular. So I, my new inspiration in the last five, six years has been, you know, there's a lot of time. If he can do it…

40:50Sonja KlausI mean, I do, I do think he's set a benchmark to people, but I also think he's... I think, you know, people, you know, they're, I think they're quite amazed that he's still doing big films at his age. But age is just a number, isn't it?

41:06Jawad MirYes, 100%.

41:07Sonja KlausIt's, it's what... It's totally just a number, and if you wanna be 88, you can be 88 and walk around and like bent over and like dribbling if you want to, but he doesn't want to. And you know, I don't, I don't particularly, I don't wanna walk around and dribble when I'm 88…

41:22Jawad MirYeah

41:23Sonja Klaus... If I don't have to. I'm not, I'm not gonna do that. I don't walk around and dribble now. And I think also it's about your mind, you know, 'cause his mind is terribly active. And there are people, I mean, look at the Queen, you know, she was 96 when she died, and two days before she died she was, you know, talking to the new prime minister, and you just think, "That's nuts." And the Pope, look at the Pope. The Pope was really ill, but he still went out and did his Easter Sunday service and then died the next day. And so you look at them, 'cause they're older, and you go, "Wow, that is something, isn't it?" And I know they're in the public eye. I know that, I know they're, you know, I'm choosing like big people, but there are other people that I know who aren't in the public eye who are like that. And I, and also I think what's exciting is that Ridley said you can never stop learning, and I think you have to look at it like that. And like me, I've, I've never done executive producing, and I find myself, I think I told you know, I pitched a script, that some friends had written, you know, and at first they wanted it to be a film and I was like, "Nah, it's gotta be TV.

42:27Sonja KlausYou got too much to say here. Let's make it a TV show." You know, and we have been working on it for over two years and talking about it, but I didn't know the first thing about producing. I'm not, I'm an art department person. I don't do producing. And so I had to teach myself on, you know, what to say about the timing, about, "Oh, should you say this? Should you not say this?" You know, all that kind of stuff. And I've actually found that quite fascinating because I, it's a world I didn't really get involved in.

42:58Jawad MirYeah.

42:58Sonja KlausI was involved in the money because obviously, you know, being a production designer, you're always involved in the money part of something, and the end product, and being there for the director, and servicing the show. You know, so there's that part of it that evolves, and it's probably similar to, you know, the producer obviously they have to service, like, they have to think of the whole thing. And I, and so I found, I find that completely fascinating. I'm like, "Oh, so that's what you do. Oh, that's interesting." And I don't like the word retire for that reason. I can't stand it…

43:33Jawad MirNo

43:33Sonja Klaus... When people say, "Oh, I'm retiring." And I'm like, Jesus, it sounds like you're about to go and, like, die.

43:40Jawad MirDie.

43:40Sonja KlausI mean, it's just, what sort of word is that? It's like, what is it re… what are you retiring from anyway? And they're like, "Oh, my job," and I'm like, "Yeah, but you're not, y… y… but are you not y… what you gonna do? Just so you s… you s… you stop getting up, going to work on a Monday from, you know, 8:00 or 9:00. You're not doing that anymore, so what, you're gonna wake up at a different time? You're gonna suddenly, all those years, you're gonna suddenly go, 'Oh, I think I'll wake up at 10:00.' And then what you gonna do? You sit and stare out of the window and have a cup of coffee and eat a biscuit, and then maybe walk the dog?" Is that, is that…

44:13Jawad MirYeah

44:13Sonja Klaus... What was that?

44:14Jawad MirI, you know, I genuinely think that it is so imp… o… one of the things that I've realized five, six years ago, and I've been very much, you know, knock on wood, obviously I can't control a lot of things, very much conscious about it is health, right?

44:29Sonja KlausYes.

44:30Jawad MirSo your health and what you do, what you do. It doesn't have to be film. It can be, you can be a finance guy…

44:35Sonja KlausYeah

44:35Jawad Mir... You could be IT. As long as you love it. If you love what you do and if you have your health, I think you can go quite far…

44:44Sonja KlausYes

44:44Jawad Mir... From having that purpose, because everything begins and ends here.

44:48Sonja KlausYes, it does.

44:49Jawad MirRight? If I tell myself, "Well, I can't do this," then I'm done.

44:53Sonja KlausYes.

44:53Jawad MirAnd what you said about learning, right? I honestly, I start, I, when I was growing up, I like, "I wanna be a director and that's it," right? That's it. All I did was editing, cinematography, shooting, camera operating, tons of stuff. And now that I'm directing I'm like, "I can never be a producer," but the project that I was telling you about, all I've been doing is producing.

45:16Sonja KlausIs producing.

45:17Jawad MirRight?

45:17Sonja KlausYes.

45:17Jawad MirAnd you just, and you screw up so many times, then you figure, "Okay, maybe I should do this, and maybe I should wait a week or two weeks and then follow up."

45:26Sonja KlausYes.

45:26Jawad MirIt's just, it's just a, it's just one of those learning things, and I think that's very important, to be able to be…

45:31Sonja KlausI do, and I, and it's also fascinating, isn't it? Because it's all about, it's a different rhythm. You know, it's a completely different rhythm to what I'm used to, being a production designer, and what i… is expected of me. You know, and it's like you go into meetings and then, and you think, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said... Oh, did I say too much? I said... Oh." You know, 'cause in the arts part, you're very used to being, you know, we're artistic so we all compete…

45:53Jawad MirYeah

45:53Sonja Klaus... We're all bonkers, so we all say what we li… you know, we're all, like, free. And then you think, "Oh, you can't do that when you're a producer though, can you? Can't do that." You can't suddenly burst into song 'cause you feel like it.

46:07Jawad MirYeah.

46:07Sonja Klaus'Cause they'll all think, "Oh." You know, kind of... And it, and I think for me, with Ridley, he's very youthful. You know, and he, I don't notice the age gap at all. It doesn't, I don't even think about it. I talk to him like he's the same as me, and we had that whole, I did have a conversation with him about, 'cause I went to a lecture at the sci… at, Imperial College, and it was about age. 'cause I was fascinated about how people think about age. And the guy went round the room at the beginning and he said, and he just randomly pointed at people, and he said, "I'm sorry," but he said, "This is an Eng…" And it did say, you might be asked some awkward questions. If you don't wanna answer them you need to say, "I don't wanna answer it." So, and the awkward question was, he was asking, he was w… going round the room saying, "How old are you?" And you know a lot of people don't wanna say how old they are.

46:58Sonja KlausSo people were saying, "Oh, I'm, you know, 27. Oh, I'm 42. I'm 68." And he said, "Okay, so now I'm gonna talk to you about age." So he gave a talk for about an hour, and it was about the perception of age is what it was about. About the perception of age, to put it in a nutshell. And then he walked around the room and he kind of went to the same people again, "How old are you?" And it was really interesting 'cause the 67-year-old said, "I'm 22." And that's because mentally, when we'd had the talk, you, if you look back on your life and you think about times, you in your subconscious, you've locked in a time when you were happy, when you felt you were, like, great and you enjoyed yourself. So mine is 27, so I'm 27.

47:59Sonja KlausI think Ridley's 24. And, you know, we talked about that and I said, "So you get what I mean?" He said, "Well, yeah, I'm tw… I'm tw… I'm, I'm like, I'm 24." You know, and he didn't even question it, and, I re… you know, he's read some books and he's met people, and, you know, he's b… very well, you know, he meets lots of different interesting people. But how fascinating was that with people? But it was interesting 'cause the, what some of the people who'd said, "You know, I'm 52," they still said they were 52.

48:28Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, it's, it's true.

48:31Sonja KlausAnd that's why age is just a number. It's not what's going on up here or your body, or, you know, when you... And I, and I think, you know, that's, that's, it, you can be old if you want to be, can't you? I mean, anybody can. But I just, I don't wanna be. And it's not that I'm, I'm being pathetic and going, "Oh, I just don't wanna get any older," 'cause I've just, you know, I just had a birthday. I've had another year has passed and I'm, I'm one year older, and I can't stop that, can I? I c… I can't, I can't stop it. Like the time we've just had now, that's gone, that time. We've just had that time…

49:07Jawad MirYeah

49:07Sonja Klaus... You and I. But it's how you spend that time, and it's how you perceive that time, and it's how you want to project that time, isn't it?

49:15Jawad Mir100%, 100%.

49:16Sonja KlausAnd…

49:16Jawad MirI would recommend you read this book, or listen to this guy's podcast. His name is Peter Attia. He's written a book called Outlive. It's about, like, basically looking after your health, right? And there's four important components, diet, exercise, lack of stress, and sleep. Like, if you follow those four things, you know, you're more or less, unless you get into an accident, like, you're really looking after yourself really well…

49:48Sonja KlausYes

49:49Jawad Mir... Which is very important. Now, sleep is something that I used to overlook, but lately I've been sort of more controlling on, like, you know, I have to have…

49:54Sonja KlausSo have I. Isn't that funny? I've been doing that…

49:57Jawad MirYeah

49:57Sonja Klaus... Too. I've been trying…

49:58Jawad MirYeah

49:58Sonja Klaus... To sleep through the night without waking up.

50:02Jawad MirThat I haven't been able to do, because I do wake up once for sure, but still eight hours of sleep. I used to do five, six, but now it's, like, eight unless…

50:10Sonja KlausOh, isn't that funny? So how do you... So when you have eight, 'cause I need se… I want seven, if I have eight I feel a bit sicky wicky.

50:18Jawad MirIt's seven to eight. I do not sleep in.

50:21Sonja KlausYou feel fine?

50:22Jawad MirYeah. I actually, I... You're, I know what you mean because I cannot sleep…

50:25Sonja KlausNo, I don't sleep in

50:26Jawad Mir... Even though some people get up at, like, 9:00, 10:00 AM.

50:28Sonja KlausNo, I can't. I don't, no, I can't.

50:29Jawad MirI can't do that.

50:30Sonja KlausNo, I can't.

50:30Jawad MirSo I go to, I go to bed at 10:00 unless I have other work or, you know, there are some exceptions, and I'll wake up around 6:00 or 5:45.

50:38Sonja KlausYes. Same.

50:39Jawad MirAnd I, and I'm fine. And I'm fine.

50:42Sonja KlausYeah. I have about seven hours and I'm fine. If I couldn't do that lying around k… Because I've done it occasionally, you know, just because I've, I've sort of forced myself to do it 'cause I've been staying with someone who's like, "Oh, shall we have breakfast at 11 o'clock?" And I'm like, "Oh, God. Isn't it gonna be lunch soon?" And, you know, and I've had to lie around in bed and I just feel, you feel heavy…

51:09Jawad MirUseless

51:09Sonja Klaus... And like…

51:10Jawad MirYeah

51:11Sonja Klaus... Useless. And I don't like that. But I've been trying to, navigate my brain to get it to understand that I want to go to s… I want to go to sleep and I wanna sleep for seven hours and not wake up. Occasionally I might have to get up and spend a penny in the night if I've drunk a lot of water or something.

51:34Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

51:34Sonja KlausI might have to do that, but I try to not, I... Because a friend of mine told me that about as well, so you, so that you don't have to get up and go for a wee in the middle of the night, that you have to drink, like, by s… you have to finish everything, drinking, by 7:00. And I'm like, "Oh, really? That's sort of a bit funny." And they was like, "Yeah, if you don't wanna get up in the night." And the thing is, I think for women it's much easier 'cause I don't have to get up in the, I don't actually have to get up and go for a wee.

52:00Jawad MirYeah.

52:01Sonja KlausI could actually hold it, and I do. And, but I know that for men it's different. And also, like, for my dog it's different. He doesn't like it. He lets me know at 5:30, "Mummy, I need to go outside," you know? And I get told very loudly…... He's a boy.

52:23Jawad MirWhat you should do, I haven't, I haven't used this, but I know, I know a company that had its clients using, it's called an Oura Ring. So basically you wear it at night, and it tells you through an app how, what times were you deep sleeping and what times…

52:41Sonja KlausOh

52:41Jawad Mir... Were you, like, it's, it's, it's basic. I don't know if you're comfortable with that.

52:44Sonja KlausOh.

52:45Jawad MirBut, I'll send you a link.

52:47Sonja KlausOura.

52:47Jawad MirI think it's…

52:47Sonja KlausOura

52:48Jawad Mir... Oura. Yeah. Let me just, let me just see how you spell it.

52:51Sonja KlausWhat do you mean? Of course I wanna know about that.

52:54Jawad MirOura Ring. O-U…

52:55Sonja KlausI love all that

52:56Jawad Mir... O-U-R-A Ring. So I think you have to purchase it, and I think there's, like, a subscription plan too.

53:02Sonja KlausOkay.

53:02Jawad MirBut look into it. It's

53:03Sonja KlausI'm gonna look at that now…

53:05Jawad MirYeah

53:05Sonja Klaus... You've told me. 'Cause I was reading…

53:08Jawad MirIt's…

53:08Sonja Klaus... About sleeping, that it is terribly important to get that right.

53:13Jawad MirIt is.

53:13Sonja KlausBecause also we all, as we get older, we do tend to snore, and snoring can not, you don't have good sleep if you snore a lot.

53:20Jawad MirIt's not good for you. Yeah.

53:21Sonja KlausNo.

53:22Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. But I think the Oura Ring actually te… I could be wrong, but it actually act… it collects the data on the snoring as well.

53:29Sonja KlausOh.

53:30Jawad MirAnd, but I, another, a…

53:33Sonja KlausIt's weird thinking if my husband snores more than me or if I snore more than him because he's always telling me I snore more than him. I'm like, "No one could smore, snore more than you, Julian."

53:42Jawad MirI could be wrong, so don't quote me on that. But another…

53:45Sonja KlausI'm gonna tell him you said.

53:48Jawad MirBut another thing is, like, and I read this somewhere, and I think it was in the Outlive book or maybe somewhere else, is that watching TV or phones before you go to bed is not good at all.

54:02Sonja KlausNow, that's interesting, 'cause I like to watch a bit of telly.

54:05Jawad MirI was like that on a daily basis…

54:08Sonja KlausI watch telly

54:08Jawad Mir... But now I've cut down on it.

54:10Sonja KlausDo you read? So what about reading?

54:11Jawad MirReading is fine. Reading is good. Reading actually clear your, clears your mind. I've, I'm not a good reader, but I've got, I bought a Kindle recently and now I'm kind of getting into…

54:21Sonja KlausOh, right

54:21Jawad Mir... Like, other than movie books I would not read anything else, but now I'm just trying to read. Because it just, it actually does clear your mind. I feel it. I genuinely feel it.

54:34Sonja KlausOh, I'm gonna try that now.

54:37Jawad MirYeah.

54:37Sonja KlausI'm gonna do that.

54:38Jawad MirIt may, it may work for you, it may not. I don't know. That's the…

54:41Sonja KlausI'm adding that to the list. I've writ… I've made a list here. I'm gonna add that to the list.

54:46Jawad MirWell, we went from…

54:47Sonja KlausStop TV

54:47Jawad Mir... Talking from American Gangster to about our health, which is great, which is what I love. That's awesome. No, that's really good.

54:56Sonja KlausWell, you know. 'Cause it's important, isn't it?

55:00Jawad MirIt is.

55:01Sonja KlausI slept like a, I slept like a baby when I was staying in the Mandarin Oriental with the butler. I mean, honestly, I had no stress whatsoever 'cause I just had a button I could press.

55:12Jawad MirI don't know if that's a good thing too many times too.

55:14Sonja KlausI don't know. I wasn't sure. 'Cause when they first said, "Oh, this is your butler," I was like, "" And they said, "He's available to you 24/7." I was like, "Ooh." What are you saying?

55:23Jawad MirDoesn't, doesn't the guy sleep?

55:25Sonja KlausI was like, "Do you change them over? How does that work?" No, I didn't... I was thinking, "Oh, maybe don't ask those embarrassing questions. Just shut up and just press the button if you need them." Yeah.

55:38Jawad MirYeah, no, but…

55:39Sonja KlausBut it was

55:39Jawad MirI know exactly what you mean because, when I was, promoting my film In Search of My Sister right here, so we did a lot of screenings all over the world, like, sponsored by NGOs, US embassies. And so whenever we went through a US embassy trip, it was like top of the line hotel and... We didn't have a butler, but top of the line hotel and, you know, just the works. So…

56:09Sonja KlausIt is kinda ridiculous, isn't it? 'Cause there is a massive difference between usually where you normally stay and then that. And it, and, but it was my treat. You know, they said, "It's your treat." I was like…

56:20Jawad MirYeah

56:20Sonja Klaus... "I'll take a treat." You know, and it was…

56:23Jawad MirYeah

56:23Sonja Klaus... And also, it w… I kind of liked it 'cause, you know, I was a, you know, Branko came out. It was quite funny 'cause certain people decided to come out a bit early out to Thailand. You know, they were filming in New York, and I think they'd all got a bit fed up. And so Branko kind of like wafted in one day, and I was like, "Oh, you're here a bit early, aren't you?" And he was like, "Oh, well, you know, it's all going well. It's sort of fine. We have no money, but they've spent all the money like this." And I said, "Oh," well, I said, "I've spent a fair bit of money too 'cause you told me I could." And, anyway, he rocked up, and he was off, you know, traveling around and going to the temples and having a very nice time. I was like, "Oh, I, oh, he's the producer. That's quite a nice job, isn't it, being the producer?" Yeah, but he rocked up 'cause, you know, Thailand is rather lovely.

57:14Jawad MirYeah, it is. Yeah.

57:14Sonja KlausI think it's much nicer than hanging out in New York maybe. Yeah, so he rocked up early.

57:22Jawad MirYeah. No, that... And the food over there…

57:24Sonja KlausOh

57:24Jawad Mir... Is, and it's amazing.

57:26Sonja KlausThe food.

57:26Jawad MirAside from the bugs, but

57:28Sonja KlausAside from the bugs, but the food, oh my God, the food. I went to, like... My, location manager, he was Thai, and he was a, taekwondo, karate, judo, and what's the other,.. And he had one other discipline, but he was like black…

57:47Jawad MirJujitsu? Jujitsu.

57:48Sonja KlausJujitsu.

57:48Jawad MirYeah.

57:48Sonja KlausAnd he was black belt in all of them.

57:51Jawad MirWow.

57:52Sonja KlausAnd he had a pet monkey called Tina. And it, she was a spider monkey. And I said, "Can I meet Tina?" And he said, "Well, actually, you can't." And I was like, "Oh." And he said, "She hates women." And he, his girlfriend, so he was, he had a girlfriend, and she was very lovely, and so he had to, like, Tina had to, he had to, he used to have to take Tina over to his mother's house and put Tina in his mother's house because Tina did not like other women being around him. And Tina would actually get a, pick a paperback book up, spider monkey, and she'd pick the paperback book up, and she'd, like, hit you on the head like that with the paperback book.

58:36Jawad MirWow.

58:36Sonja KlausAnd make a noise, and that meant get the hell out. Yeah. And I s… 'cause you can imagine me begging and begging for, you know, to cuddle a spider monkey.

58:48Jawad MirYeah.

58:48Sonja KlausI mean, who wouldn't wanna cu… you know. He's like, "No, she's..." He called her Tina. That's hot, not very kind of, it's not a Thai name, is it, Tina?

58:58Jawad MirNo.

58:58Sonja KlausAnyway, she's called Tina. But I never got to meet Tina. But he was fascinating 'cause he was like, he looked like Bruce Lee. I mean, he was unbelie… he made rafts for us one day, 'cause I decided that instead of going the long way back, that we'd go on rafts, which sounds like a great idea 'cause they're in the movie. If you watch that, the movie, you'll see those rafts. So…

59:19Jawad MirYep. Yeah

59:19Sonja Klaus... I had those rafts made, but he was with me, and we got the peanut farmers to lash them together. 'Cause they use, they're literally no cable ties, no nothing. They use palm leaves, and they w… wind them in and out, and they just cut the bamboo down, and they weave them around, and they make these, you know, wide, quite wide rafts. Well, not that…

59:41Jawad MirYeah

59:41Sonja Klaus... Wide. They're probably about, you know, three, four foot wide and however long they can make it. And I said, "Oh, I don't really wanna do the long ride back," 'cause the ride back in the cars was about two and a half hours, three hours on this very windy road. And I was like, "Ugh." And I said, "How long is it if we go down the river on the, on the rafts?" And he said, "Oh, it's about an hour like this." And I was like, "Okay, well, it's a no-brainer. Let's take the rafts." You know, 'cause they've been made by the, my friends. So there are four rafts. So Terry gets on one. I get on one. We get the, Bruce Lee on another one, and we get the guy, he was the, he was the extras. He'd done all the casting. Billy. His name is Billy, and he's from New York, and he's lovely. So he goes on another one. And we've got the guys with the, you know, doing this stuff.

1:00:33Sonja KlausWe're going halfway down there, and it's beautiful. You know, all the big kind of the, bamboo is hanging over, those huge bamboo trees, you know how they go. I mean, the bamboo's like this, and it's hanging over, but the mosquitoes are, like the size of elephants dive-bombing at us. And the next thing I know is the raft on the one side has pulled over on this sort of random islandy bit, and I shouted to Terry and I went, "What are they doing?" Well, they were picking wild ga… some herb or something, only grows on this one particular bloody bit of rock. So this guy just decides to pull in on the side and go and rip off some of this herb with Billy just sort of sitting there. Anyway, the next thing I know is I don't really understand what happened, but we're all carrying on, 'cause the river's flowing quite fast, you know, and you gotta go. And so we're going, and I said, "So is he gonna be all right?" And then the next thing I know is we hear this yelping sound… And it's Billy, and his... The guy has got off this raft, and when he's jumped, he's jumped back down on it, and some of the fronds, however they'd wound it round, must have undone itself.

1:01:41Sonja KlausSo the whole raft collapsed. It just literally fell apart.

1:01:46Jawad MirOh, wow.

1:01:46Sonja KlausThe next thing I know is I've got Billy next to me, swimming like a dog, like this, swimming to me. And I go, "Oh my God!" So I had to drag him up with me, and all the props that he had, because we had all the props with us, they all floated off down the river. And I was like, "Oh, my God. What we gonna do?" And they were literally, like, floating off down the river, the stuff that we had. The backpacks and all those sort of things. Anyway, the... We kept going, and the mosquitoes were, like, going from this size to suddenly to this size, to, like, they were getting, like, bigger. I swear they were getting bigger. And I was going to Terry, "Oh my God, how much farther is it?" They said it was only an hour. And so, Bruce Lee, he said, "Oh, yeah, it's only round the corner. It's only round the corner." And I was like, "" I said, "It's getting quite dark." And I said, "These mosquitoes are like the size of hummingbirds. I mean, they're so big." And he was going, "Yeah. Well..." And I said, "Are you sure it's only... It was only an hour?" He said, "Well, maybe it was two." I was like, "Oh my God." So then all of a sudden I hear like that.

1:02:49Sonja KlausAnd I'm thinking, "What the hell is it?" And it's the American line producer has got a launch out. 'Cause we weren't on those boats, 'cause none of us had any watches on, 'cause it was r… you know, we were told, "Don't... You need to take that off and..." 'Cause we put them, we put them away in the bags. And we, but we didn't have anything with us. We had a phone, but he had the only phone. It was a satnav phone. 'Cause we were in the jungle. The, you can't use your phone. So he had a satnav phone. And I said, "Where's the satnav phone?" And he went, "Well, it was in one of the rucksacks, which is bobbing down the river."

1:03:25Jawad MirOh.

1:03:25Sonja KlausSo we hear this brr coming, like this, and it's getting louder and louder. And I'm like, "What the hell is that?" So it's a motor launch, and it's got this guy in it who's from Am… who's American. He used to be in the Army, and he was the line producer from New York. And he was, he had a megaphone. He said, "Are we all fine?" Like this. And I, and I was like, "yeah. Well..." He said, "We thought you'd got lost. We've all been back having drinks, waiting for you." And I said, and I was shouting, going, "I thought you said it was three hours back in the car." And he went, "Well, maybe it was only an hour. I just thought you might like the experience."

1:04:05Jawad MirWell, they forgot the timing.

1:04:06Sonja KlausSo they thought we'd all died. They thought we'd all drowned in the river. So they sent this launch out to come and get us. So we all hopped in the launch and went back.

1:04:16Jawad MirThat's amazing. Did they have crocodiles in there?

1:04:20Sonja KlausI don't know what was in there, but I think there were l… the leeches, 'cause he had a leech on his leg. Billy had a leech on his leg. Oh my God, it was like the size of a banana. And I literally was like, I remember looking at his leg going, "Ooh, that's…

1:04:34Sonja Klaus... Ooh." No, they're, like, big. 'Cause it's the, it's the jungle, isn't it?

1:04:37Jawad MirYeah.

1:04:37Sonja KlausSo everything's exaggerated. It's massive. I mean, the literally, the mosquitoes are huge. They're like butterflies. They're so big. Yeah.

1:04:47Jawad MirGood to know. Good to know. Let's, l… is there a Denzel Washington story that you can share? Or you weren't... Well, he did come to Thailand, yeah.

1:04:58Sonja KlausYeah.

1:04:58Jawad MirWhere he…

1:04:58Sonja KlausHe came to Thailand.

1:04:59Jawad MirYeah.

1:05:00Sonja KlausHe was…

1:05:00Jawad MirJust to wrap it up on that

1:05:01Sonja Klaus... D… D… Denzel was quite quiet. He kind of, he didn't, you know, he sort of had all his crew around him, and he kinda did what it said on the tin. And I think he really enjoyed himself. But he doesn't sort of, you know, 'cause he got put in a different hotel to us. And so we didn't sort of see him that much. But one day he had to ride on the mules. And he's quite tall, Denzel.

1:05:29Sonja KlausHe's not short. He's quite tall. And I remember going to Ridley, going, "you know, I think I'm a bit worried that the mules are quite small, and he's quite tall." And I said, "I think that his feet might touch the ground when he gets on the mule." And Ridley's going, "No. It'll be fine. It'll be fine." And then I said, "Do you know if he can ride like this?" And Ridley said, "Oh, no, that'll all be fine as well." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And mules are a little tricky, 'cause you know they're a bit bitey.

1:06:04Jawad MirYeah.

1:06:04Sonja KlausA little bit nippy. They're a little bit fresh. They're... But like riding a pony. So Denzel gets on it. They decide, not me, but one of the Army men decides to pick this one mule, which I knew was not the quietest one, 'cause I knew them very well, those mules. 'Cause I was with them all day long, and I knew which ones were the quiet ones and the non-biters. So they, and they, so they pick this mule, and it's a bitey mule. It's the kind of mule that can literally turn its head round and bite your leg, 'cause it's so bendy. It was like, it was like Gumby. It was, like, unbelievable, this mule. So Denzel comes, and I said to Terry Wells, senior prop master, I went, "Oh my God, I don't think he's ever ridden. I don't think he rides. Does he, does he ride like this?" And Terry's, like, going, "Well, I've worked with him before on something else. Did he ride on that? No, he's very good with a gun, though." I was like, "Oh, right. Well, that'll do it then. He can get on a mule." So Denzel gets on this mule, and I literally thought I was going to die laughing, 'cause his legs are so long, and he's got his feet dangling down, and they are literally almost dragging along on the dirt, 'cause this mule's so small, and he's tall.

1:07:09Sonja KlausBut the other thing is he doesn't like mules or riding, really. And of course, they put him on, like, the nippy, bucking bronco. And we had all the other mules there. We had all the extras there. And he has to do that walk, you know, when he arrives. You'll see it when you see in the film. He arrives at the general's house.

1:07:24Jawad MirYeah.

1:07:25Sonja KlausAnd he comes on a mule. Well, some…... Twit, I don't know who they were, who was in the, in the makeup department, decided that he needed a bit more sweat on his face. So you know they have one of those pump mister things. So they decide to walk up to Denzel, and they decide, with this mule, the bitey mule, and they decide that they're gonna spray his face on this mule but not tell anybody. So I was there, and I could see it happening, and I had to, like, do this mad kind of Barbie, Jungle Barbie run through all, weaving my way all the way through, 'cause I could see, could see this woman raising her hand up like that with the spray about to go. Well, of course, that noise would've sent that mule off, and he would've bucked off, and that's the leading actor. So I had to run, and I remember I wrestled the mule. I went and I kinda ran, and I put my arms around the mule so that if it was gonna bite anybody it was gonna bite me and it wasn't gonna bite him. Anyway, it bit me in my butt when I was standing there holding it and holding... And he went, he went, "Are you all right?"

1:08:27Sonja KlausLike this. And I went, "Oh, yeah, fine. I'm just,.. Oh," I said, "I'm just holding onto the mule for a second, just a second to make sure it's all fine for you, Denzel." And he's like, "Well, it would be fine, but maybe you should let go 'cause it might buck me off." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, you'll be all right. Don't worry." And this woman's standing there with this thing, and I looked at her and I went, "No mist, thanks."

1:08:50Jawad MirWow. Oh.

1:08:53Sonja KlausCan you imagine we'd have been in Chiang Mai and we'd have had the leading actor, like, being bucked off this bucking, nipping bronco. And then I, and then I persuaded them. I just went, "We need to swap. You need... Can you get him on this other one?" And they, because, you know, they were just... They don't understand. It was like a language barrier. They didn't understand. They're just like, "Oh, Denzel Washington needs a mule. Oh, we'll just give him that one."

1:09:16Jawad MirYeah.

1:09:16Sonja KlausAnd they just picked one, and it's like, no. They've all got personalities. Don't, please don't do that. And I did feel a bit of a twit, you know, 'cause I did this mad dash, and I think he didn't really understand, but I was like, 'cause I could tell it was about to have a fit. And it was the same one that had kicked the guy in the face. And I was like…

1:09:34Jawad MirOh

1:09:34Sonja Klaus... "Why would you pick the same one to…

1:09:36Jawad MirThe same one

1:09:37Sonja Klaus... And it was only because it was a male, because it was a, 'cause they're male, you know, and it, and it was a male, and it was kind of like the, they thought it was bigger than the others. And it's like they're all sort of same. But it was so comedy. And if you now watch the show, if you watch it again, you'll see when he arrives, and you'll see his legs hanging down, and he literally was only about that far off the ground with his legs. It was so funny.

1:10:03Jawad MirThat's…

1:10:03Sonja KlausSo you can't do anything. You can't put his feet in a stirrup or do any…

1:10:06Jawad MirYeah

1:10:06Sonja Klaus... You can't do anything. You just have to sit on it. It must have been so uncomfortable.

1:10:13Jawad MirI gotta, I gotta go back and rewatch it because…

1:10:15Sonja Klaus'Cause you know when you put your feet in the stirrups it takes weight, doesn't it?

1:10:18Jawad MirYeah.

1:10:19Sonja KlausYeah, but…

1:10:19Jawad Mir100%

1:10:19Sonja Klaus... He didn't, he couldn't put his feet in the stirrups, so he had to go along this path. So think about it. I don't need to, I don't need to, I don't need to spell it out for you. I think you can...

1:10:30Jawad MirYeah, no, I'll, I'll check it out. No, this has been amazing to listen to your stories. I do know one of the... Whenever I write a, if I have to write a script about a film, I'll probably have a character who gets a butler in a hotel. Write an entire scene around it.

1:10:47Sonja KlausWith a button.

1:10:49Jawad MirYeah.

1:10:49Sonja KlausCan't forget, don't forget the button. The button was the crucial bit.

1:10:52Jawad MirThe button. The button and the butler.

1:10:54Sonja KlausThe butler button.

1:10:56Jawad MirYeah. Which has been great. No, I'm, I'm glad that you shared that because, you know, it's these, it's these little things that, in life, that you maybe at the time you don't think about it that much but you like…

1:11:06Sonja KlausNot really, no

1:11:07Jawad Mir... It makes you, makes you think of…

1:11:08Sonja KlausAnd also you don't, you know, and also you don't really talk about them that much, do you?

1:11:11Jawad MirYeah.

1:11:11Sonja Klaus'Cause you feel like sometimes when you're talking about it that you're slightly boasting or you're kind of like…

1:11:14Jawad MirYeah. No you were not.

1:11:15Sonja KlausBut I feel like it's okay now because it was so long ago, and…

1:11:19Jawad MirYeah

1:11:19Sonja Klaus... You know, it was just... And I feel it's okay. I mean, I w… I don't, you know, I mean, I've done other things that have been amazing, but you just remember. And also, you know, I quite like talking about it 'cause it does then reminds me, and I remember more about my experience, and I remember the tea in the afternoon that we used to have in the Palm Court. And, you know, I rem… I'm now remembering all of that, you know. And I used to think that was amazing. And, you know, and the shops I used to go to. And I don't know, and I, and it's just... And sometimes when you talk about the past, you know, you're not always talking about something you did last week. It kind of, y… you remember, and then you remember the people, don't you? Then you start to remember, like Leck, the art director, who was just so...

1:12:03Jawad MirYeah.

1:12:03Sonja KlausAnd Joyce, who was my coordinator. She was amazing. And, you know, and they were all, I had an amazing crew, and they were all so great, and I had a wonderful experience.

1:12:15Jawad MirYeah. And, you know…

1:12:16Sonja KlausI learnt how to fold a lotus petal. I learnt how to fold a lotus bloom.

1:12:22Jawad MirAmazing.

1:12:22Sonja KlausYou know when you, in Thailand, when you see when they have a lotus…

1:12:24Jawad MirYeah. Yeah

1:12:25Sonja Klaus... And they bend all the leaves in and they fold it all up and they do all those lovely things? Yeah, I had a lesson.

1:12:30Jawad MirThat's incredible. But it is true that at the end of the day, honestly, like, you know, yeah, we make, we make films and all that stuff, which is great, but in, it's always about the experience that you remember.

1:12:42Sonja KlausYeah.

1:12:43Jawad MirEven some of the most crappiest experiences…

1:12:46Sonja KlausYeah

1:12:46Jawad Mir... Which you can laugh off down the road, but…

1:12:48Sonja KlausYes, exactly

1:12:49Jawad Mir... But that's what it's all about.

1:12:50Sonja KlausIt isn't al… always about the script.

1:12:52Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, I'm…

1:12:53Sonja KlausIt isn't always about the script. But the script is the reason you got there, isn't it?

1:12:57Jawad Mir100%. 100%, and I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you so much, Anya. I truly appreciate your time.

1:13:02Sonja KlausOh, no, it was so nice to see you.

1:13:04Jawad MirLikewise.

1:13:04Sonja KlausAnd we'll keep in touch, and you keep me p…