'Project Kashmir', Composer, David Robbins

0:09Jawad MirGood afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams Podcast. I'm your host, Jawad Mir. Today my guest is a repeat guest, music composer David Robbins, who I had the pleasure of speaking couple of times, mainly for Tim Robbins' film, Dead Man Walking, which you can, look at the end of this video. And this time he's here to talk about a documentary, called Project Kashmir. It was released about 20 years ago. It's very rare to find, so, a little challenging for you guys to go check it out, but if you do find it, please do watch it. It's one of the most incredible documentaries I've seen, about two protagonists who are also directors, one Indian, one Muslim, one Pakistani, one Hindu, and how they navigate their way into Kashmir. And incidentally, that topic is back in the news. My conversation with David was amazing. We talked about the film, the politics, the music, and how he finds his inspiration to create the wonderful music that he does. So without further ado, here is my conversation with music composer David Robbins.

1:12Jawad MirYeah, you just gotta…

1:12David RobbinsAnd then…

1:13Jawad MirYou just gotta adapt, but, it is what it is. You deal with it and you go forward.

1:18David RobbinsYeah

1:18Jawad Mir... You know, thank you so much for joining for, to speak about something that you and I spoke about a while back, I think it was a year ago or so, maybe even two years ago, Project Kashmir, which is a documentary that…

1:30David RobbinsYeah

1:30Jawad Mir... You worked on.

1:32David RobbinsYeah.

1:32Jawad MirAnd, never heard of it until you mentioned it to me, and then saw it, and boy, what an incredible documentary. What an in…

1:42David RobbinsYeah

1:42Jawad Mir... Incredible story. And I know the subcontinent story, you know, I wouldn't say really well, but quite well, being from there, from that part of the world.

1:54David RobbinsRight.

1:54Jawad MirAnd al… and just sort of seeing these characters, mainly being the protagonists who are also the directors, and how they meet the locals from, you know, from both sides, and how that sort of unravels is incredible. And I will say, and I say it in full compliment, which I'm sure you'll s… recognize that, I did not hear music for the first half of the film because it w… even though it was there, it was just the tension was so much there and the characters that…

2:26David RobbinsYeah

2:26Jawad Mir... It really subtly played, and then I had to pay attention. I'm like, "Oh, I'm speaking to David, so I gotta pay attention to the music." And then, and then I got started paying attention to the music, and it obviously was there, but you know, very subtle.

2:38David RobbinsI do consider that, I do consider that a compliment because that's kind of the way I approach especially documentaries. You cannot, I mean, you have to have a red alert all the time about manipulation. You know, you cannot become a, as much of a character as you can in certain other types of film. But yeah. It's a... It kind of, I s… I re-saw it first time since I worked on it, and, it's, it makes you very scared sometimes. I mean, it's like, oh my God, where are these people? What is gonna happen? You know, it's like, it's, it's, it's… was such a volatile place and still is.

3:24Jawad MirWell…

3:24David RobbinsAnd, you know

3:25Jawad Mir... As of last two weeks ago, some… you know.

3:27David RobbinsYeah.

3:28Jawad MirRight, so.

3:29David RobbinsYeah. Crazy.

3:31Jawad MirBut, just for the audience, I mean, I know the context. I don't wanna talk about it, but from what you know, what did you learn about the story in Kashmir? What the dispute is? Assi… and we'll get to the film, just to kind of establish the context. As much as you know now or what you knew before you were started working on it.

3:50David RobbinsI d… I first k… kind of got in on, got on the radar or went, you know, had a, had some e… experience with, I was on a film jury in, Locarno, I guess around, 2002, 2003. And there was one of the, documentary, well, it was a drama film, based on, history of, the, takeover, I guess of, that part of the world. You know, the Kashmir and the disputed, and how they were forcing entire regions of populations to move from one place to another. And it was kind of built, that story was very engaging. We, it ended up winning one of the prizes that, we had. It was by far the best, of that genre that I had seen. And that kind of really got me a lot more knowledgeable and aw… aw… aware of what was going on there. Other than that, I mean, it was, it was very little, politics that were talked during Dead Man Walking, with, Nusrat's people and, that. But it, but yeah, that kind of opened my eyes to it.

5:15David RobbinsAnd, when, Sinan and, Gita approached me to do it, I, you know, they, I saw some rough cut and it was, it's like this could be, you know, this could be incredible. And, I had lots of ideas and that's usually a, kind of a tell, that, I'm gonna have a good experience working on it. And it w… you know, it had, like everything, had its difficult moments, but, there, you know, there was, a little rub at times about, where to have music, where not to have music or, you know, or, you know. And I… I left it being happy with what I've done. And, you know, since I saw it again, I mean, I noticed that after I'd gone, they did a little manipulation here and there as far as, you know, placement and redoing, you know, reusing certain things that I hadn't done.

6:16David RobbinsBut it's, it's all, you know, it all, it, they didn't do anything negative to it really, so I'm, I'm all good with it, you know? And that usually happens anyway to some degree…

6:26Jawad MirYeah

6:27David Robbins... You know, they're, it's just part of the thing. And, you know, you can't, I probably said this before, but you can't have an ego if you wanna be a composer.

6:35Jawad MirYou can't have an ego in anything, especially in the entertainment industry, plus composer, yes.

6:40David RobbinsYeah.

6:41Jawad MirYeah.

6:41David RobbinsIt's, it's a dangerous thing to, have, and people, it's not productive if you, if you put yourself in the way. But

6:51Jawad MirAbsolutely. And the story of the film is interesting, right? Like you have, a Muslim woman and a Hindu woman, both from America, with their connection with…

7:03David RobbinsAnd France, yeah

7:04Jawad Mir... A… a… and France, and their, sorry, France, and their, connections with the, through their families to, in India and Pakistan, how they go to this disputed part of that, the region which is divided in more or less two parts, one controlled by India, the other, by Pakistan, and how they meet all these peoples and, you know, how they have their point of view. And it's interesting because I have, I have never seen a documentary on Kashmir like that.

7:38Jawad MirAnd it makes it v… and there's a lot of dialogue in that, like, you know, you hear one thing, you see one thing, and the truth is another.

7:46David RobbinsYeah

7:46Jawad Mir... Which I think the, one of the characters, I think his name is Muzamil, he says that.

7:49David RobbinsYeah.

7:50Jawad MirAnd so what, but when you hear like these conversations from all the players, for the lack of better word, in this conflict, including the protagonist and how they're trying to sort of make the other side understand their point of view, it just, you know, makes you question about a lot of stuff too. Like, okay, what is the truth?

8:10David RobbinsYeah.

8:10Jawad MirWhose fault is it? Whose fault is it not? Is it everybody's fault? Is it nobody's fault? What is the truth?

8:15David RobbinsAnd it was also their a… a… a awakening to how they couldn't, I mean, they had, they learned and they, you know, they learned about themselves, but they also were, disturbed at the reaction of the people there to them, depending on, you know…

8:35Jawad MirWho they were with

8:36David Robbins... The situation. Yeah. And it was, you know, and they, I think they learned over the course of doing that about how volatile it is there and how they, you know, people can get themselves killed, you know, by, fraternizing or saying too much, you know? I mean, there's, there's certain times in the, in the documentary where, you know, they just put the camera facing the ground just so, you know, it just, 'cause they're, you know, they went there on the guise of being tourists, you know, and, to get this, and that's, you know, dangerous in itself, you know? And, but, yeah, they had that own kind of reckoning with their own friendship, which it was never something that never really entered into the picture here until they went there, you know? And it's, it's pretty deep when you know, when you see that.

9:37David RobbinsAnd struggling with their own, ideas and, assumptions, about the way things are. And I think that the more they learned to listen, the more they kind of got to where they could understand it a little better.

9:58Jawad MirYeah.

9:58David RobbinsEven though it's… so complex, you know? That whole…

10:01Jawad MirIt is. It is

10:03David Robbins... It's generational. It's, it's been going on for a long time.

10:07Jawad MirAnd I mean, I'll get to your music in a second, but what, the two most interesting parts for me, one was a scene, I, and I think her name is Na… Na… was it Nina or Naina? Muzamil's friend, the woman who…

10:21David RobbinsOh, yeah. Naina, I think. I believe, yeah

10:23Jawad Mir... Naina, yeah. When she's in the part where there's a lot of Muslims, and they recognize, you know, from the facial features and everything that she's not, and she's trying, she's feeling uncomfortable, but they keep welcoming her for tea.

10:41Jawad MirAnd you see the look on her eyes and that dead silence, you know, that plays in the film for a good 20 to 30 second. Like, how is she feeling and how is she reacting?

10:51David RobbinsYeah.

10:51Jawad MirHow she had mis… misjudged. That, and then Muzamil's, like, throughout the film, he was very, you know, he seemed very kind of charismatic, very balanced, and then something hit him, and then he just went completely quiet. You know…

11:06David RobbinsYeah

11:06Jawad Mir... Which there, the phone conversation. Those are two of my favorite parts of the entire film. But what about you? What did you, what moved you?

11:13David RobbinsI kind of agree with that. I mean, there was this ki… you can always feel and hear th… this couching and this guard that's up with, you know, especially Muzamil, you know? And being, you know, charismatic the way he is, when that switch goes off, it's like all of a sudden he's feeling, you know, "Wait a minute, I could get myself in some huge trouble here." So he's kind of like trying to intellectually figure out a way to back off, and he just, you know, it was something that, I'm not sure who said what, but it, all of a sudden he realized that he was in a situation that he needed to back off of, you know, because it was, it was a dangerous place to be for him.

12:03Jawad MirYeah. And it's, and it's, it, and I think this applies to everybody in the world, the people who are living in diaspora No matter from where they're from.

12:13David RobbinsYeah.

12:13Jawad MirWhen they're in the diaspora, they have, they're surrounded by, you know, different people, and they're not in that zone all the time. But when you go to your, wherever you are from, and when you're surrounded by all of that, then your surroundings change your point of view, whether it's a right thing or a wrong thing, you can argue that. But that's exactly what happened with both of them.

12:37David RobbinsYeah. It's, it's pretty revealing, and, like you say, I mean, it's a rare thing. I, you know, that doesn't, nobody's, not many people have been able to pull anything like that off, you know? So…

12:53Jawad MirYeah. So le…

12:53David RobbinsIt was, it was quite a learning pr… process for me too

12:58Jawad MirSo let's, let's talk about the music. So about five, six years before, you had worked on Dead Man Walking. I think it wa… that was the timeline, right? About maybe eight years ago. Or longer.

13:10David RobbinsNo, it was after. I think that…

13:12Jawad MirNo

13:13David Robbins... They…

13:13Jawad MirDead Man…

13:14David RobbinsOh

13:14Jawad Mir... Walking came in the before that, right?

13:16David RobbinsYeah.

13:17Jawad MirYeah.

13:18David RobbinsYeah.

13:18Jawad MirSo the, it was about six, seven, or eight-year gap between those two films, if I'm not mistaken.

13:22David RobbinsRight.

13:23Jawad MirSo you had worked on Dead Man Walking with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, and, you know, the elements of South Asian music in that film, and then you get approached by them. And how much of that you brought into this film, if any, but if not, then what were your research, elements like? Where did you, what did you have to do to make yourself familiarized? Because Kashmir is, had its own culture. It's not India. It's not Pakistan. A lot of people don't know that, so they have their own music.

13:56David RobbinsYeah.

13:56Jawad MirSo what, just talk about that.

13:59David RobbinsWell, it's, it's like you say, I mean, it's, it's something that I do as a, as a rule. When I'm approached with something, I have all, you know, this, body of, knowledge that I've learned, I learned from doing Dead Man Walking, during the course of that, which was a lot. But I needed to go into the more regional aspects of the, you know, those three places basically, and it's, it's different in Pakistan, like, you know, than it is in India, and it's different in Kashmir. And it's, in ways it's kind of s… familiar and similar, but in ways it's different. And tr… to trying to find just little clues and I don't even remember what I was listening to, but I usually go to places, where I can buy, folk music from particular regions, and that's what I did, and I, you know, usually get a coup… at least a couple dozen CDs at the time, you know, and just, like, listen to it and the instruments too, you know?

15:07David RobbinsI had a very limited budget on this, so I couldn't hire a lot of people, but, the f… the occasional h… times when you hear flute and voices, singers, those w… w… is where I was, like, super careful about what I was gonna do because they can be so powerful, yet they, you know, to people that know that well beyond what I know, I've, I had to be continually sensitive to that. And the bed of the music was all, mostly, arpeggio, synthesizer arpeggios and, manipulated sounds that kinda morphed and, did different things. And I'd add little accents here and there that there's this one, section, it's the second crackdown, where that big bomb, you hear the bomb.

16:14David RobbinsAnd, during that time, that, there's, that piece is, a good 10 minutes long that kinda just flows and, you know, like a rolling sea, and sometimes it's very sparse and I, you know, I used an electric guitar with echo on it just to have this occasional rep… repetitive da, fades away with that bed kind of, rolling and changing and, it became really effective. And then that kind of transfers into a slightly more, relaxation of tension in the music, after that, and that's when you start hearing the flute, which is a very beautiful, flute, playing and melodies and, but just pieces of it, you know, not a, nothing complete.

17:14Jawad MirSure.

17:14David RobbinsYou know, and, it was, you know, as I do stuff like that, I learn as I go too, you know, and I have a, I guess, a good sense of, what works dramatically, but also what scene, what is genuine or what I try to make sure is genuine, as genuine as possible to the culture that I'm, putting music to, you know, the story of the culture that I'm putting music to, cultures.

17:51David RobbinsAnd, it's the first time I mean, I've, I haven't seen the movie since I worked on it and, it's the first time I saw it in... I had trouble finding it, you know, as you know.

18:05Jawad MirYeah.

18:05David RobbinsIt took me a while, but I dug it up. It was actually sitting there on eBay, and, They had exactly one copy.

18:15Jawad MirOh, wow.

18:17David RobbinsSo I couldn't find it anywhere, you know? I couldn't... I have lost touch with, Sunain and Gita as well, so I couldn't... I didn't know how to get in touch with them 'cause, you know, the websites that were once valid weren't valid anymore, so.

18:32Jawad MirYeah.

18:32David RobbinsBut, I'd be interested to see, how they're doing and reconnect with them if that is to be

18:41Jawad MirI actually looked up their IMDb to see, because that was, like, almost good 20 years ago, right?

18:47David RobbinsYeah.

18:47Jawad MirAnd, so I don't remember, I, Sunain, what she's up to, but Gita, have you heard of this new series called Meet the Patels?

18:57David RobbinsYeah, I heard of that. Yeah.

18:59Jawad MirSo she's, I think…

19:00David RobbinsThat's good

19:00Jawad Mir... Either the creator and the director and maybe the protagonist too.

19:06David RobbinsWow

19:06Jawad Mir... So she's, she's still doing it, but it's interesting how it went from Kashmir to something completely different, but it's been 20 years, so obviously she needs to…

19:15David RobbinsYeah

19:15Jawad Mir... Do different things.

19:16David RobbinsYeah.

19:16Jawad MirBut that's where she's at.

19:19David RobbinsOh, cool.

19:19Jawad MirYeah.

19:20David RobbinsLet me know.

19:21Jawad MirYeah, so maybe you could, connect with her. But, yeah, no, I know I was telling my, somebody I know who is really much into Kashmir for the last good 15 years, and I sent, I sent a message to them. I'm like, "You have to see if this film... Like, I think it's one of the best films, made, definitely the best film made on doc… Kashmir in terms of a documentary."

19:48Jawad MirBecause, and one thing that it talks about, which I recently learned, there was, and I'll give you the names of those f… two films. There was a film that came out from India about five years ago. It's, it's by this director who was nominated for an Oscar in 1970s as a 19-year-old I… Indian who traveled to the Academy Awards.

20:11Jawad MirHe's a very talented guy. So he's originally from Kashmir. His name is Vin… Vidhu Vinod Chopra, and he made this film called Shikara. Shikara is that boat that they have in Kashmir that… ... That has a little like, if you wanna call it a little hut that people kinda just sit in there.

20:27David RobbinsYeah.

20:27Jawad MirAnd it was about the Hindu Pandits… ... Which we just talked about in this film, like I think, Na… N… Nana is one of the, is a Pandit, and how they were migrated.

20:39David RobbinsNana is Aarti, is…

20:41Jawad MirI don't, I don't know her name. I'm just horrible with character names in movies.

20:45David RobbinsThe one, the one having tea with the lady that's a friend of Muzamil, I think that…

20:50Jawad MirNo, the, no, the, you know the one…

20:52David RobbinsYeah, the…

20:53Jawad Mir... That was Muzamil's friend where…

20:55David RobbinsYeah

20:55Jawad Mir... She, they're sitting in that restaurant, Muzamil, her…

20:59David RobbinsYeah

20:59Jawad Mir... A… and the two protagonists, Gita and they're having this conversation. She has green eyes, curly hair.

21:06David RobbinsYeah.

21:07Jawad MirYeah, so she,.. Sorry, I just lost my train of thought. What was I talking about?

21:15David RobbinsWell, it's, it's, the name. I seem to remember that her name was Aarti for some reason.

21:22Jawad MirAarti. Aarti.

21:22David RobbinsA… Aarti.

21:23Jawad MirOkay, maybe it's Aarti. Maybe it's Aarti.

21:25David RobbinsAarti. Yeah.

21:25Jawad MirBut she belongs to a community called Pandits, which are Hindu Pandits.

21:29David RobbinsYeah.

21:29Jawad MirSo I learned this five years ago, which I never knew, and they talk about this in this film that how Hindu Pandits h… houses are taken away… ... But the Muslim Kashmiris, fa… people have lost their lives. But I did not know this until this film came out, which I would recommend that you watch it's actually beautifully shot, very character centered, that 400,000 Hindu Pandits migrated from Kashmir to India…

21:56Jawad Mir... And the Indian government couldn't care less about them. They had, there was refugee camps in India of Hindu Pandits.

22:03David RobbinsWow.

22:04Jawad MirSo there's that element to the story too which when I saw Project Kashmir, it just kinda resonated from that standpoint.

22:11David RobbinsYeah.

22:12Jawad MirBut there's just so many layers to this, man. There's just so many layers.

22:15David RobbinsLearned, I learned, Pandit, what Pandit is, when I did a movie before this, called The Day My God Died, and it was another documentary and it was done by, this guy who, it was his first film and the only film as far as I know that he did. But he had, he got spy glasses from Peter Gabriel's organization, and he went into brothels in India.

22:47David RobbinsAnd it was about kidnapping and, grooming

22:51Jawad MirTrafficking and all that

22:52David Robbins... Trafficking, from, Nepal. And a very heavy movie, but, in that I, had a chance to, I, one of the connections that I had from when I did Dead Man Walking, when I talked to her about needing to find a, an Indian, flute player, she said, "Well, there's this guy, he's a, he's a Pandit," and he's, which I guess is, it's an expert, you know, a master of his discipline. And, so I a… And he was in LA when I was, gonna be recording, so I hooked up with him, and his name is, it was, Ranu Majumdar.

23:42David RobbinsAnd man, this guy could play. It was just, it's like wow. It was like that was the first time since Dead Man Walking where I s… you know, I had that kind of fortune to, having this unlikely, master at what he does in the same place at the same time in the world to, and generously bringing his talent to, what I was working on. So that was kind of a, that was really cool too, but anyway, I digress.

24:15Jawad MirYeah. No, that's fine. That's all cool, but, what's something that you... I mean, I kinda touched upon this at the very beginning, but what did... Was something that you learned about this entire topic without learning anything, if that makes sense? Because it's such a deep topic, just like any other, you know, political issue in the world. There's so many layers and stuff, and you... We all get hear one side or the other side, and we emotionally react to it without trying to find, you know, ra… without finding to, trying to do more research and try to understand as deep it can. What did, what was something that you picked on?

25:02David RobbinsI saw the depth of these differences and the, this, conflict of peoples, that w… is incredibly deep and historical and long-lasting, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds, maybe even thousands of years, you know, where all this, kind of, this stuff comes from. But I think what I got out of it was, you know, don't try to make judgments. Just have empathy, you know, for, because what I do, you know, what music does, is it bridges…

25:48David Robbins... Those differences, and that's what I, you know, that's what I learn from it, that... And that's my special, entry into bliss in… if you wanna say, about this artistic fortune of understanding cultures through music. And sometimes that's as, that's can be as deep in its own way, but it's, there's all this beauty in their artistic expressions, and there's all this struggle and ugliness and, suppression and, of peoples, of these same people, you know? And it's, it's,.. I con… continue to learn about things. You know, books are a great way, you know

26:48Jawad MirYes

26:48David Robbins... I've been, I just happened to, be reading about, Joseph Campbell, the myth… this expert at mythology and how universal it is and how, it's, and it's the same in cultures that could never have intermixed, you know, so long ago with like the American Indians, with the, with all, you know, people from Africa or Australia or, Middle East, Far East, Japan, China, e… et cetera, that they all had these mythologies that seem to just, you know, be created by their environment. You know, there's the forest, there's the plains, there's the, mountains and wherever they from, wherever they are from, they have the same mythologies but with different references of deities.

27:55David RobbinsYou know, like your deities in the forest are different than the ones on the plain. It's like their relationship with animals and all of that. It,.. Anyway, I've been reading this and it's, it's this particular book, that is a, an interview basically with Bill Moyers and, Campbell, and it's a, it's really eye-opening. And, you know, the, there's this universal thing about music that kind of ties right into that in a lot of ways. And getting back to the most value for me is to understand the music and learn what I can about the people, but have empathy for the depth of their experience that I can't hope to know, you know?

28:50David RobbinsJust not to judge them based on the surface, you know? It's, it's,.. That's not my, that's not my job or my place or my want, you know? I would rather have harmony through art, you know?

29:05Jawad MirYeah.

29:05David RobbinsI would rather enjoy that, and that's what I try to do all the time, not judge people.

29:12Jawad MirAnd it's, it's crazy that, you know, we… we're talking about this, such a deep issue that has stretched over the last 75 years… ... You know, with killings back and forth, with attacks or, you know, all that, and people wonder like why they can't get along and, the, why don't... You know, the word, the word they use is judgment, right? Like, you're always judging people at that, in those kind of situations. And, on my sometimes I'm like, you know, you don't even know what's going on next door to your house. You don't even have empathy for your own neighbor. Like, you don't know what their story is.

29:49David RobbinsYeah.

29:49Jawad MirYou don't know what are they going through, and they don't know what you are going through.

29:53David RobbinsRight.

29:53Jawad MirSo we always make these assumptions, right? I… that's one of the things that I can't stand about people is that, and I'm, I'm guilty of that, too. We all are. You know, we assume things which is, to me, is first step before judgment, right? Like, you assume something, that it's g… it's happening because it's happening or X, Y, Z, such and such…

30:14David RobbinsRight

30:14Jawad Mir... And then you start passing on judgment. So that's another problem, assumption

30:19David RobbinsYeah, and it's, if you're attuned to that, I mean, if you're, if you're, you know, y… if you catch yourself with these bad assumptions that you make, it's a learning process through your life, and sometimes it's, the, those things kinda come more automatically if you, if you're open to it, if you're empathetic instead of judgmental. And it is a learning process through your whole life, and you're never perfect at it. You're never…

30:45Jawad Mir100%.

30:46David RobbinsYou know? And, it's like, especially in, like, in this country is a great example. Just in the differences, the way, the, you know, amazingly how tribal it's become over the last 20, 30 years. And, but if you meet this person, if you, if you don't judge by something you see on TV or hear or read, and you meet that person instead of, you know, and just have a conversation with that person, it, that is, that is m… much more valuable than anything because you, all of a sudden you see that is another human being. That is not a something.

31:30Jawad MirYeah.

31:30David RobbinsThat is not a they. It's a, it's a, becomes a we, and that doesn't mean you d… have to agree on anything or, but you're in front of that person. It's, it's like, it becomes a whole different relationship with understanding the other person. And…

31:48Jawad MirAnd that's what I, but... Sorry, go on.

31:50David RobbinsNo, and just, and letting them, or hoping that they understand you too. You know.

31:56Jawad MirRight. And that's what I was saying in the beginning. In the film, there's that, the, character Aarti who's, makes assumption about, you know, these group of people, and who welcome her for tea over and over again, and they see it in her eyes that she's shocked and surprised that she's being welcomed. And that assumptions goes completely down the drain…

32:14David RobbinsYeah

32:14Jawad Mir... And the judgment goes away because she interacted.

32:18David RobbinsYeah.

32:18Jawad MirI mean, they didn't even talk much. It was just, like, about discussion about tea. You know, how simple is that?

32:24David RobbinsWell, also, when she was showing her, the building where she used to live that's all just a wreck…

32:29Jawad MirYeah

32:29David Robbins... You know? That this is where I grew up, you know? This is, and it, that's, that's really touching and, kind of life-changing in a lot of ways for the other pe… you know, for Gita and, Sunand, and of course them, m… she, and, Art… Aarti and, the others as well. Just to see, you know, picking up those pieces of paper that have been lying there for 20, 30 years, you know?

33:00Jawad MirYeah.

33:01David RobbinsWhatever. And seeing what, it's like a snapshot in time, you know, of what was going on then. And, it's amazing and heartbreaking too.

33:12Jawad MirHow much, when you were collaborating with, Sunand and Gita, w… I'm assuming there's a lot of interactions that you had with both of them at the same time?

33:23David RobbinsYes. They were…

33:25Jawad MirWhat…

33:25David Robbins... Definitely a team.

33:26Jawad MirWhat were they like, having seen the film and their friendships have sort of lead into these arguments, I mean, there's this beautiful scene when they're kind of, I wouldn't say arguing, but maybe, like, at a very minimal made, they were arguing about this, she was presenting her point of view. She, Gita, and Sunand was presenting her. And then there's the shot goes from, you know, single shots, to, like, a wide shot of them sitting on the ta… dining table…

33:54Jawad Mir... And she puts a cup of tea, and there's, like, this roaring silence, and you know there's tension between them, right?

33:59David RobbinsYeah.

33:59Jawad MirDid that ever come across when you were working with them? Not professional disagreements, but just that feeling…

34:05David RobbinsNot really

34:06Jawad Mir... Of tension?

34:07David RobbinsNot really. I, not that I remember anyway. I think that their relationship kind of actually got stronger once they got back and started working on the post-production of this. And… I think that they found a stronger, bond through that. That was my impression anyway. I mean, of course, yes, they had their disagreements as to, ways to go, but that's a, that to me it seemed healthy, you know? It was a healthy, interaction. And, I'm trying not to get in the way of that, you know? I mean, 'cause that's informative on its own right, you know?

34:52Jawad MirYeah.

34:53David RobbinsAnd, yeah.

34:55Jawad MirAnd I, and I do think that, you know, you have to be com… any friendship that tests, not just in the political cases, but any other th… tests the times of difficult disagreements, and if you can overcome that, then it becomes extremely strong after that because then you have gone beyond the surface of your friendship, right? Like, to touch those uncomfortable things that you're probably avoiding all your life.

35:18David RobbinsOr, yeah, or it never even really came up 'cause, you know, their…

35:22Jawad MirTrue

35:23David Robbins... Their, relationship in the States was one thing, and then that could either have s… torn them apart or they're, they then, or they got stronger, and they got stronger and tighter, you know, as a result of that, and that's a good thing, you know? And they made a, they made an excellent pil… picture, you know, an excellent, told an excellent story, a hard one to tell.

35:49Jawad MirHow mu… how well did it do at festivals? Because it is one of those films that if it was to come out right now, like, it would do really well. Like, I don't... I mean, even that time, it was, like, after 9/11, so that topic of, you know, extremism or whatever you wanna call it, terrorism, and, you know, the colonial stuff was pretty hot.

36:11David RobbinsWell…

36:11Jawad MirHow well did it do at festivals?

36:13David RobbinsI don't know about, I'm not aware of any festivals that it was in. I know that it was broadcast on

36:23Jawad MirITVS?

36:24David RobbinsYeah.

36:25Jawad MirYeah.

36:25David RobbinsAnd, that was all the knowledge I had of it, you know? I mean, I didn't, I didn't s… you know, it,.. I never got a, like... You know, normally what I am able to get is a couple of copies of the finished product, you know, and I never…

36:43Jawad MirYeah

36:44David Robbins... Never did get that. So it kind of,.. I was, obviously, I was pretty busy at that time too, so I was onto the next thing and the next thing at that time. But, I never did, get any, awareness of any s… festivals, o… other than the airing of it, you know? And then, and that was about it. But…

37:08Jawad MirI think that it probably was commissioned by ITVS, and normally when that happens, it's very rare for films to go through fest… Well, I mean, not necessarily, but unless it was, like, commissioned exactly from them, then it's…

37:20Jawad Mir... Directly gonna be broadcast.

37:23David RobbinsRight

37:23Jawad Mir... But, I hope somebody picks up this film and puts it out there online because it's a very... I mean, sadly it's still a timely topic.

37:34David RobbinsYeah

37:34Jawad Mir... But it's less political, more personal and which is what, which is what's needed.

37:39David RobbinsMaybe I can get in touch with, Gita and ask her if she's done anything about that. Because it was cer…

37:46Jawad MirYeah, no, you should

37:46David Robbins... It was certainly hard enough for me to find when I, when I was looking to find a copy of it, you know? And it wasn't much, you know, finally it took me a while, but I found a source, but yeah.

37:59Jawad MirI mean, sometimes directors don't wanna revisit. That's, you know, the past work because they've moved on. But…

38:07David RobbinsYeah

38:08Jawad Mir... I think, I, at the same time, I do think it is something that there sh… it should be screened at different places or, you know, maybe re-aired on television. I know those are, like, complicated things, but i… it's definitely something that people need to see, for sure.

38:25David RobbinsYeah, for sure. It's, it is sadly current again.

38:34Jawad MirYeah

38:34David Robbins... That's not, I mean, it's, it's just an… another awakening of that struggle in that part of the world that's never really gone away. It may have ebbed and flowed a little bit, calmed down, heated up, but we don't, we don't hear much of that, unless we're actively looking for it.

38:57Jawad MirTrue. True.

38:59David RobbinsYeah.

38:59Jawad MirAwesome. Thank you so much, David. Anything else cooking for you, in the next little while, this rest of the year?

39:07David RobbinsJust, we may be touring again this summer. Kinda trying to figure that out right now, or the summer or the fall. Might do a little bit more, European and perhaps a national or a West Coast tour of some sort of s… of Topsy Turvy. Other than that, in the songwriting and, me just putzing around at home and, you know, spending a lot of time at the theater. I do, I do, I'm in charge of, the soundscape there. You know, I, commission or ask, you know, put in for new equipment, and I install it, and I balance it, and I make sure that everything that comes in there sounds as good as possible. And so that's, that's one of my jobs there. So, and that's, that's a lot of fun. The technical side of it is kind of a, another thing that I've done since I was a teenager, you know?

40:14David RobbinsAnd

40:14Jawad MirYeah

40:14David Robbins... Comes and goes, but I, you know, that technical thing is a good talent to have for me. It's, it, keeps me, in the mo… one of the ways of keeping me in the moment that's not, strictly artistic, you know? And

40:35Jawad MirYeah

40:36David Robbins... It's that, the geek in me.

40:40Jawad MirWell, it balances things out then.

40:42David RobbinsYeah.

40:43Jawad MirAwesome. Amazing, man. Thank you so much for your time, buddy. I appreciate it on this, Saturday afternoon/morning for you.

40:49David RobbinsWell, it's, it's, you know, it's, we have the May gray going here, so it's, like, gloomy outside, which is,.. So it's, my pleasure, and it's good to see and talk with you too.

41:01Jawad MirMy pleasure too. Thank you so much, David. We'll be in touch again.

41:04David RobbinsAll right. See you. See you soon.

41:04Jawad MirTake care. Bye.