'The Hunting Season', Editor, Håkan Karlsson, Mel Gibson

0:00Jawad MirWere you getting dailies regularly, and were you collaborating with the director remotely?

0:07Håkan KarlssonSo I look at the material so I know what's in there, and then I go blank in a way, and then I get the scenes, in a first draft so I can go, like, fresh into the next level of analyzing the scene. And that goes on, and then in the end, I have everything. Then I start showing, and I get notes, and I do things. But I need, I want to be alone in my editing room because I think that in my process, I cannot have someone, you know, going like this in between. And if they do, they, it's, it's get, I get angry.

0:58Jawad MirWelcome back, everyone, to another episode of Kingdom of Dreams podcast, The Making of Stories. I'm your host, Jawad Mir. Today my guest is Håkan Carlson. He's the editor of one of the most recent films starring none other than Mel Gibson called The Hunting Season. It is actually a pretty good film with quite a bit of emotion anchor, quite a bit of drama, and an antagonist that you would not want to see in a film. I mean, this guy is just something else, and we talk about that, and we talked about that in the film, as well as Mel Gibson's character, the editing techniques, the workflow, the post-production process, and all that fun stuff. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Håkan Carlson for The Hunting Season. What I really liked about this film, without giving it away, there are two characters in this film that don't really meet until very close to the end, right? And, in a another film, there would've been some sort of a, sort of setup leading to that, and a buildup and all that, and which is fine too, but this was something different, and it worked for some reason, and it worked really well.

2:11Håkan KarlssonI agree. And, the s… the struggle in the story is to... I mean, there is a threat with this other character. He's the threat in the film, but he's not, he's not appearing in that many scenes. So but you s… you need to be aware of his presence in the story anyway, so that was a challenge in a way. And also how we should balance his, that character, because he's in it so seldom, so not so often, he needs to be cla… quite clear, w… that he is the antagonist, that he is the evil guy. We couldn't be, like, fine-tuning him that much, you know, being more complex with him, 'cause he needed to be the... He's, he's in a way, the motor of the story, of that way.

3:14Jawad MirYeah. And you used the word antagonist, right? And I always say that even when the films that I've sort of come to direct in recent years, I have been very much about the antagonist more than the protagonist. Because an antagonist, a strong antagonist makes a protagonist, stronger in a sense that the audience root, roots for them.

3:35Jawad MirRight? And the antagonist in this film, even though he came in very limitedly, there was no, you know, complex side to it like, let's say, the Corleone family from The Godfather, but there was this sense of his presence, his aura, even though he was not in the most stable condition any time you saw him. It just gave you the, you know, the chills of what he might be able to do next, because you see him from the very beginning of the film, he is capable and not, doesn't hold back, from anything in any way.

4:15Håkan KarlssonI'm happy to hear that because as again, it was a struggle with how we should tune him, in a way in the, in the editing. Because he had quite a spectra in different... We could make him more complex or m… more of him or less of him, and the balance was so important to make him, so we believe in him and also so we, as you say, you don't really know what he's capable of, or you know that he's capable of a lot.

4:48Jawad MirRight. And, you know, you said that, you, when you were building that character in the post-production, were there more ma… was there more material to use from, that was probably in the script or in the, in the actual footage which showed his complexity? Or was that always the way it was from the beginning to the end?

5:06Håkan KarlssonIt wasn't, it wasn't more in the sense of more pages in the script, but it was more in the spectrum of how, should it be, should we, he be, bring him out like this, even more crazy or more, drug, addicted, or should we tune it down to make him more we don't really know what it is? So we had a s… we had a palette or what you say, on how to paint him.

5:37Jawad MirBut, that's, that's interesting to hear. So you and, sorry, I don't know the director's name. I should

5:44Håkan KarlssonRaja.

5:45Jawad MirSorry?

5:46Håkan KarlssonRaja.

5:46Jawad MirRaja.

5:46Håkan KarlssonRaja. Raja Kallas.

5:47Jawad MirRaja. Raja Kallas. So you and him must have had a lot of conversations and sessions where you were trying to sort of, you know, figure that out. And do you remember any of the moments where there was that eureka moment that… You know, we've got this now. The w… the way it is the way we are gonna keep it, and it works, a… as opposed to maybe some other ways that you guys were sort of leaning towards?

6:12Håkan KarlssonI would say that it's not a, it's not a point where we decided. It was a procedure, it was a process where we went from all over the place, and tune it down, and sculpture it down to what it, what it ended up it with.

6:31Jawad MirBut would there be an example that you can give that's not in the film that maybe was a little too much, if that's something you were…

6:40Håkan KarlssonAnd yes, he was actually, as he in, is today in the film as well, he's having this tape recorder… ... Recording himself saying things. He did that much more. He was also singing and dancing in it, like not a sound and a healthy dancing, singing, figure. But it turned out to be too much, because he went in a way not too, not as dangerous with that part in it.

7:13Jawad MirSo it kind of make, made him a little bit of comical in a little bit.

7:19Håkan KarlssonYeah.

7:19Jawad MirYeah.

7:19Håkan KarlssonYeah.

7:20Jawad MirCool.

7:21Håkan KarlssonBut also with a, with a guy like that, it's so much in what he does and how the people around him reacts to him. That is more important than what he do.

7:34Jawad MirYeah. No, that's, that's true. I mean, there's that scene of where he puts the gun in someone's mouth, and it's just that kind of presence and that aura that he gives that even his men call him out. And you'd, like as an audience, I had no idea if that was going to, you know, if he's gonna pull the trigger or not. Just sometimes you do, you know, in that you're trying to give that threat. But because of his persona, that you guys set up in the script…

8:03Håkan KarlssonYeah

8:03Jawad Mir... In the production, the post-production, the, this part…

8:05Håkan KarlssonAnd also, and also because how his guys react to that.

8:09Jawad MirYeah.

8:09Håkan KarlssonBecause they s… they go like, "No." If they would've been like, you know, standing and soft just breathing or whatever, we would've known that it's, it's, he's not gonna do it. So it's important with this sort of the Greekis choi… Greek cho… choir that, you know, help out the character and what's it about.

8:32Jawad MirGot it. And this was shot in Europe, I'm assuming?

8:35Håkan KarlssonNo.

8:36Jawad MirOr was it… No

8:37Håkan Karlsson... No, it was, shot in the States.

8:40Jawad MirReally? Which part?

8:43Håkan KarlssonI'm post-production, so I don't remember everything.

8:47Jawad MirOh, okay. Okay.

8:48Håkan KarlssonI think it was…

8:48Jawad MirI asked

8:49Håkan Karlsson... Wasn't it in Texas or somewhere down there?

8:52Jawad MirDidn't f… somehow it felt like Europe. But you're, you know better, of course. Let me see.

9:00Håkan KarlssonI, there is, it's been a while now since we f…

9:04Jawad MirAtlanta.

9:05Håkan KarlssonAtlanta.

9:05Jawad MirAtlanta.

9:06Håkan KarlssonYeah.

9:06Jawad MirBecause Atlanta and Ar… Argentina, because Atlanta has good tax credits. So that's probably one of the main reasons it was shot in Atlanta in the US, because it's, it's more…

9:15Håkan KarlssonLike almost every f… like almost every film I do nowadays, they are shot…

9:20Jawad MirYeah

9:20Håkan Karlsson... In a place. I think in Europe it's Sweden, Denmark, and Luxembourg that doesn't have any tax incentive really.

9:28Jawad MirYeah

9:29Håkan Karlsson... Otherwise we're shooting all over, in Europe, and in the States, and in Canada due to that.

9:38Jawad MirRight. You're, you know, I've, I've, some, most of the times, I would say most of the... Sometimes editors are on set and they're getting dailies. I have spoken to a lot of editors who sort of worked in that way because that's what the director demanded or the studio demanded. As you said, that you weren't on, physically on the set, but were you getting dailies regularly, and were you collaborating with the director remotely? If you can talk to me about that process, that would be really great to hear.

10:07Håkan KarlssonYeah. Yeah, m… my normal process, which is, which we did with this one as well, is that every single day at the end of the day, since I'm nine hours ahead of Los Angeles, I think I'm seven hours ahead of you or something, so when I, when I come into my job in the morning, I have new material to look at, because they are, the DIT sets it up, do the prep for me, and upload to my FTP or somewhere else. And then I can start looking into it. What I u… normally do, I have a co-editor assistant, whatever you call it. He's a seni… senior editor, but he's, he's, working, worked with me for over 10 years now. And he learned editing by sitting bes… behind me. And he learned also my way of, you know, my rhythm and my way of analyze the scenes and so on.

11:08Håkan KarlssonSo normally he do the first take, the first like a... It's not an assembly. It's more a advanced pre-edit. So I look at the material so I know what's in there, and then I go blank in a way, and then I get the scenes, in a first draft so I can go like fresh into the next level of analyzing the scene. And that goes on, and then in the end I have everything, and then I start building it. And actually not working with a director that early. So I spent quite a lot of time together with Magnus, my co-editor, to make the first take of it. Hopefully if it's gonna be a 100 meter, 100, minute film, in that state it's 110, 115, something like that, so we have… to take down.

12:11Håkan KarlssonThen I start showing and I get notes and I do things, but I need, I want to be alone in my editing room because I think that in my process I cannot have someone, you know, going like this in between. And if they do, they, i… it's, it's get, I get angry. So, but it's also, I think, it's a good way for the process because the director also need to have fresh eyes into what they see.

12:44Jawad MirYeah

12:45Håkan Karlsson... And I work a lot with the sound. I do a lot with the sound design, atmospheres and the score, early, because I think that it's, it's not a way to look at something and have to, having to imagine a door closing or a car driving or what… whatever. We need to come as close to being an audience as possible, but in the same time being a storyteller. So I want to pre…

13:15Jawad MirYou know, I could…

13:16Håkan KarlssonYeah.

13:16Jawad MirSorry, go on please. Continue.

13:17Håkan KarlssonI, so I want to present for the director and later on for the producer and whomever, a nice sound, a nice image and not a lot of text going on explaining things, you know. So that's my process normally.

13:39Jawad MirYeah. I am glad you mentioned about the sound because sound to me is one of the most pivotal parts, of any film. Not to take away from any other, you know, profession in the…

13:51Håkan KarlssonNo

13:51Jawad Mir... Film, because it just puts you in a space and environment where, you know, even hearing footsteps, and sometimes you would hear no footsteps. You would not hear a car driving by or a bird sound outside the house, and those little things really immerse you. And, you know, we talk about IMAX and 3D, as great as that is, but having sound is so, such an immersive experience.

14:15Håkan KarlssonAbsolutely. And I'm, since I'm not only editor, I'm a post producer, so I have my post house.

14:21Jawad MirRight.

14:21Håkan KarlssonAnd I have, I have, so I have my sound designer, Ken. He worked in LA for many years, and then moved back to Sweden. And since he's employed in my house, I can also ask him, and I, you know, I can be struggling with a scene in a cave or whatever, and I call him and I say, "Are you busy or can you spend a couple of hours to make an atmosphere on this scene?" And I send him the scene and I get it back, and then I have something, you know, building it up much better. And also regarding sound, I think it's important to, I work with all the s… the tracks for the mics, the lavs and the mics. And that is because I want to know, I want to be able to make it loud and clear, and clear, the dialogue, but I also want to know if there, if there is a scratch of some kind in the sound, I want to know if it's on the character I want to hear or on something else.

15:23Håkan KarlssonSo I n…

15:23Jawad MirRight

15:24Håkan Karlsson... D… are we, are we going to have to do ADR on this guy? Is this actor a good ADR, actor? You know. So it's very important to have that with you, I think, when during editing as well.

15:38Jawad Mir100%. And you talked about ADR. In this film or in general, has, I'm, I'm sure there have been, is there a story that you can share where you had to go for the ADR? And ADR is something that I know it's necessary if there is no options available, but it's not as cool and great is as the real stuff, unless it's off-screen, like off-camera. If you can talk to me about a story for, whether it's from The Hunting Season or any other project where you had to use ADR, and

16:13Håkan KarlssonI would say that…

16:14Jawad MirBecause…

16:14Håkan KarlssonYeah, I would say that there are three reasons for ADR. One is, of course, technical ADR. The sound is trashed or doesn't sound good enough. I mean, it might be in an environment or in a car and you couldn't get better. The other one is, the worst one, is that you haven't done your work with the script good enough. So we need to explain things that could have been done in the, in the script.

16:41Jawad MirOf course.

16:42Håkan KarlssonBut then you have the mid… the one that's is close to that one, which is, well, the script was written in one way, but we edited away the scene which has this information, or we, you know, we, the, we experience things during the editing, so we actually, we can find out, we find out that we need to underscore this, underline this information or whatever. So I think, for example, in Hunting Season, we needed to, a little bit, not over the top, but explain a little bit about the reason, d… not to say too much, the reason why the evil guy is, going for them. So we need to do... And that was off-screen. Off-screen.

17:30Jawad MirRight. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for explaining that. I appreciate that. You've been working for a while. You know, your career has spanned, over a long time. If you can talk to me about that moment, if you remember, that became the catalyst of who you are today, that kinda got you interested in films, in post-production, whether it's a particular film, whether it's a particular editor, a director. Yeah.

17:58Håkan KarlssonThat's a long story. No.

18:00Jawad MirI'm sure you can…

18:01Håkan KarlssonNo

18:01Jawad Mir... You can talk about it.

18:02Håkan KarlssonMy mother... No. So, I can s… I can tell you one thing is that…

18:07Jawad MirSure

18:07Håkan Karlsson... You know, when I was eight years old, and you're in school and the teachers ask the kids, you know, "What are you gonna be when you grow up?" And my boyfriends, they were like cop, fireman, pilot, whatever. When it was my turn, I stood up and said, "I'm gonna be Fred Astaire." I wanted to be a dancer, a entertainer, you know. And that is basically my start of everything because I've been into theater, I've been into music, I've been into radio, and a lot of creative, entertaining, industries. And then I wanted to be a director, so I was like, I was in the film industry working as a assistant of what… whatever kind. And then, I wanted to apply to the film school in Stockholm, the big one, and, I had a lot of, mentors saying, "Don't go for directing because that's a tough one.

19:08Håkan KarlssonYou, even if you go to com… even if you get into the school, it's tough to have that work. But if you go for editing, which is the f… essence of film in a way, you can, you can have work, and you can still learn about directing." And I did that, and I... What do you say? We were three for the school. They took in three guys, three people every second year. And I was like a bit surprised because I like being around people. I'm, I'm not that patient, and being an editor is alone and being ext… extremely patient.

19:50Håkan KarlssonRight? But from the first start, I was just in love because it's the way to tell stories, which is my... I'm, I really enjoy storytelling. I do it so much so sometimes I can take an ordinary happening during my day, I go to the shop or whatever, and I drop the bag or whatever, and I could come home to my wife and I can say, "I dropped the wa… the bag," but instead I build a story around it on my way home, and then it's a half an hour story instead, you know? So, yeah. So that's... And then I, this is, I mean, I'm old now, for sure. This is… I went, I was graduate from film school in '90 or '91, I think it was.

20:46Håkan KarlssonSo in this, I started out in Steenbeck, you know, like, linear, table editing with scissors. A good school.

20:53Jawad MirYep.

20:53Håkan KarlssonYeah.

20:54Jawad MirYep.

20:54Håkan KarlssonGood school for editing, for storytelling, because you have to do it in your head because it's so messy. It's, there was no, you know, undo in any way. So.

21:06Jawad MirYeah. But you…

21:06Håkan KarlssonAnd then I did that for 10 years

21:08Jawad Mir... You reminded me of the flat bed editing. I ha… I had done that three, four times for short films, in, what year was this? 2001, 2002, when there was a digital film transfer…

21:21Håkan Karlssonhuh

21:21Jawad Mir... You know, s… switch happening.

21:23Håkan KarlssonYeah

21:23Jawad MirAnd there's just something. I remember doing it at the time, and I used to hate it. I u… literally used to hate it, but I realize now that I think that was very important to be able to, even when I did editing on Final Cut when back then was version two or three, it's, it's a completely different feel, and you have a sense of the story, and it becomes a little bit more easier to do it digitally, at least from the standpoint of technicalities, not necessarily storytelling. But yeah, flat bed editing, I, it rocks.

21:53Håkan KarlssonYeah. It i… it does. But I mean, in a way, any… anyone can edit, right? You can put one image after another.

22:01Jawad MirYeah.

22:02Håkan KarlssonBut the being an editor is, for me, is being a storyteller…

22:07Jawad MirOf course

22:07Håkan Karlsson... Doing the analyze of the scene, keep bringing in your rhythm, your way of seeing, the world around you. What does it mean when people, move like that, or move their head like that, or with a vo… using their voice like this or like that? So it was hard, and I wouldn't for the life go back to edit like that. But I'm, I think I have a lot of good experience from it and in using it in my toolbox today.

22:44Jawad MirCertainly. Coming back to the film, w… was there a specific scene... We… we've touched upon so many things, but was there a specific scene that you had challenge editing at the same time or maybe a separate scene that you had a lot of fun editing? Because that's always the case in the production when there is something that really drives you crazy, and then there's something that drives you crazy, but you wanna fix it because it's fun, right, at the same time.

23:14Håkan KarlssonI would say it's, it's, that's the state all the time. It's a struggle. It's a struggle, and it's a lot of fun, and, you tend to r… forget about the struggle and remember the fun. But I like a lot, in some parts in the film, we are doing some kind of prelapse, and, sort of playing around with time. So we are in multiple times at the same time. We are in the present…

23:50Håkan Karlsson... Someone telling a story that happens, happened before. In the same time, we jump ahead to what's going to happen, and that kind of playing around, with time is, that is a struggle because the audience need to be, presented it in such a way that we understand that now this is present, this is past, this is the future.

24:16Jawad MirYeah.

24:16Håkan KarlssonSo that's a struggle, but it also so much fun, and…... Enjoy to edit because when it, when it dance, when it flows, when it's, when we get there, oh, it's beautiful.

24:32Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, that rhythm, sometimes I'm, I'm speaking from my own experience. You know, when you're editing there's just this, bec… because it becomes second nature, you just somehow have this feeling, "Okay, this is too long" or, "This is too sho… sh… short," whether it's a scene, whether it's a shot, and you figure a way out around it. And that feeling that you get after it's completed, but even then, you know, it's amazing, but if you look at it, like, maybe three, four years later or 10 years later, then you start finding, you know, problems with it. "Oh, this and that and that and this," but that's the whole process, right? It's never perfect, and that's one…

25:10Håkan KarlssonNo

25:10Jawad Mir... Of the most amazing thing.

25:12Håkan KarlssonThat's why I never see them again. But it's, it's important, for me, it's very important with the rhythm, and not only the rhythm in the cut, but because, I would say that the camera work, the camera movement, the scenery, the actor's movement, how they speak, in what tempo, and h… how they move their head is all a co… do you call it partiture? I mean, with, when you have an orchestra and you have all the instruments in the note, the notes, you know?

25:46Håkan KarlssonIs, do you call it?

25:47Jawad MirOrchestra, yeah.

25:48Håkan KarlssonYeah For the director, for the, ah. Anyway, all that, all those things are for me different instruments playing.

25:58Jawad MirYeah.

25:59Håkan KarlssonSo depending on how an actor move, that affects my cut. So if, you will never s… you can, I can almost promise you that you never see me editing a closed door then opens. You will see me editing an actor hearing a door open, moving the head, and then I go to the door, you know? And the way the actor moves his head, if it's like this, I'm gonna go... That gonna be the cut. But if it's a slow actor going like this, then it's another pace for my cut to the door. So it's a lot about pace and let's call it dancing with images.

26:47Jawad MirI'm glad you mentioned that, and I feel that I think I know why you do that, but for the audience and even for me if I, if I misinterpreted this, that showing, instead of showing the, I mean, they say that, you know, "Don't tell, show," right? That's, that's the way it is in our, in our industry, in storytelling. But in that particular example that you gave, instead of seeing the door open, you hear it. To me it's, as an audience member, it's a little bit more of a curiosity, suspense, you know, feeling that you create for the audience. Is that the same intention that you're always going for?

27:22Håkan KarlssonAbsolutely, but there's two ways because I'm two, I'm two editor. I'm two, I'm out of focus. I'm two s… two, people doing the edit. One is the storyteller that knows what's gonna happen, that knows the s… the analyze, knows who's the murderer is or whatever, know where I, where I need to be on that line. But I'm also a person standing in the middle of the room, don't know anything.

27:55Håkan KarlssonSo my curiosity is, "What's happening in this scene?" Parallel, in parallel with me knowing exactly what's happening because I'm telling the story.

28:06Jawad MirYeah.

28:06Håkan KarlssonSo that's why you never, regarding the door, I mean, if I, if I was in the room, I wouldn't be, you know, turning around to the door waiting it for open. I would go there when it's, when I hear the sound of it opening.

28:22Jawad MirSure. Makes sense.

28:24Håkan KarlssonDoes that…

28:25Jawad MirNo, that makes sense. When it comes to... Okay, let me go back. Like, let me ask you this first. Music, you know, you talked about sound, you talked about Post Production House. How important is music to you when editing? You know, obviously you have temp tracks initially until the score comes in. I'm sure there may have been some exceptions. If you can talk about your synergy as an editor with music, which I think is one of the most important parts along with sound, 'cause it could be invisible music, but it still gives you that feeling and that emotion.

29:06Håkan KarlssonI actually try not to use temp music

29:11Jawad MirOkay

29:12Håkan Karlsson... From, like, whatever. I, prefer to, often I work with, composers directly early.

29:23Jawad MirOkay.

29:23Håkan KarlssonSo either they provide me with things, or th… they have done something before that is, like, in the same area, so I can use. I do work a lot with the music, and I also, since a score could be made for, like, s… let's say it's for 35 seconds, a score is, and, in my edit, I need a bridge of 12 seconds or whatever. So I do a lot of re-edit or producing the scores when, score when I get it. So I often get, like, stems with different instruments quite early so I can do my own, new mix, new pr… pr… production of the score as well. I tend to use music too much because sometimes I need it for a kind of explanation for myself what the scene is about to, you know…

30:23Håkan Karlsson... Under… underscore the feelings. So… Often we take a… away quite a lot of the music I'm using because it's all over the place. But, I'm learning not to do it that much.

30:36Jawad MirYeah.

30:36Håkan KarlssonBut I do, I do think it's so important because, you can go, it can, it can send the audience in so many different directions, how you use the score.

30:51Jawad MirCouldn't agree with you more. Music is an essential part of a film. And there are times when, you know, having no music is a good thing, too, especially if there's a scene of, you know, tension building and you want the audience to immerse.

31:05Håkan KarlssonYeah.

31:05Jawad MirBut there's always time and place for that. With Hunting Season, done and, you know, the audience watching it, and I was checking on Rotten Tomatoes. It actually got pretty good reviews. I think it was 79%

31:20Håkan KarlssonOkay

31:20Jawad Mir... For audience, and I think 82% for critics, or the other way around. W… the reception that you have personally received from, you know, whether it's your colleagues or just people messaging…

31:31Håkan KarlssonYeah, some of my, some of my... The composers, I talked to them, one of them, yesterday, and he said he read a lot of, quite a lot of good reviews on it, so, and, I'm, I'm also happy. I, regarding the music, I also had Swedish composers on this one, the ones I…

31:48Jawad MirOh, nice

31:48Håkan Karlsson... I worked a lot with. So it's, it's, yeah, they are happy and they're good. Yeah.

31:54Jawad MirAnd that, I'm assuming that was a recommendation that you made to the director?

31:57Håkan KarlssonYeah.

31:58Jawad MirYeah.

31:59Håkan KarlssonEverything ev… everything started out, for me, it started with the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series. You heard of that?

32:07Jawad MirOkay. Yep.

32:08Håkan KarlssonYou know, you know about them. So I did that, which turning to be a international, success story. So Daniel Alfredson, who I work with a lot, the director, he got the offer to do an international film with, Anthony Hopkins.

32:25Håkan KarlssonAnd he wanted to bring his editor. And I talked my way into it, and Daniel helped out, and then we did that one. And after that, Anthony Hopkins had a novel called Go With Me. And he wanted Daniel to do that film. So, for that film, I talked in, talked my way in to do the full post-production. So I had the sound, the image, work, and also the composers. And it's so nice because I think, why I'm saying this is because I think, in a way, that the American way of storytelling, which could be quite big, quite on the nose sometime, together with what we bring, the Nordic noir, the more, not Bergman, but more Nordic noir, touch of things. When that, when those two sort of storytelling, tones marry, i… it's quite interesting, I think.

33:29Jawad MirYeah. No, I agree with you, and I think that's one of the reasons I like this film, aside from its c… complexity and good story and good characters, is that it just stays grounded. You know, there are couple of explosions, sure. But, you know, one of the things I really loved, and I'm not gonna talk about in depth because I'm just trying to figure out how to articulate this properly without giving it away. There's a character in the film, which is, the protagonist's friend, and I think you know where I'm going with this, right?

34:05Håkan KarlssonOkay.

34:07Jawad MirThe, certain things take place throughout the film, and instead of showing those things, you guys decided not to show those things, a… about that character and that character's relationship with the protagonist, Mel Gibson's character.

34:23Jawad MirAnd I thought that was brilliantly done because I... D… do you refer, do you, do you know what I'm talking about, just to make sure?

34:31Håkan KarlssonI think so.

34:32Jawad MirOkay.

34:32Håkan KarlssonBut I'm not really sure. Is it…

34:34Jawad MirOkay. I will, I will ment… the,.. I'm trying to think how to put this out because it gives away certain things. There's a scene when, Mel Gibson's character is with his niece on, and he is, on the bridge.

34:55Håkan KarlssonYeah.

34:55Jawad MirAnd he interacts with people.

34:57Håkan KarlssonYeah.

34:57Jawad MirOne of the person that he interacts with, the main person…

34:59Håkan KarlssonOh, yeah. Okay.

35:00Jawad MirRight?

35:00Håkan KarlssonSo that's the one I was thinking of.

35:01Jawad MirRight.

35:01Håkan KarlssonYeah.

35:02Jawad MirBecause throughout, after certain things that unfolded in the film, I want to see something, and that desire to see something turned into not figuring out the visuals of it made me even more curious and made me even more interested. And at the end of the day, it was like a home run for me that what I found out and what I didn't find out.

35:31Jawad MirI thought that was really brilliantly executed.

35:33Håkan KarlssonNice.

35:36Jawad MirYeah.

35:37Håkan KarlssonYeah. Yeah.

35:37Jawad MirJust a, just a comment. What's next for you? Any project that's on the horizon? Are you taking a break, or you…

35:44Håkan KarlssonOh, no

35:44Jawad Mir... Are out of work?

35:46Håkan KarlssonNo, we've been, we've been struggling in Scandinavia now f… the last year as, since, the streaming company Viaplay, they were so aggressive in all their financing a lot of projects that we were involved with, and they just put it all down over the night. So, it been, it's been a struggling year, but I've, I've ha… I had, Hunting Season, and today I'm actually having quite a lot of projects, on the table. So we are…

36:23Jawad MirGood

36:23Håkan Karlsson... We're gonna work with two American feature films. One has already started. And, yeah, more to come next year. So I'm, I'm, if we should have, if we would have had this conversation a month ago, there would be more black color under my eyes and a more moody…... Editor.

36:48Jawad MirWell, I'm glad to hear things are picking up. And those American films, is that something that you can disclose what they are, or you've signed NDAs?

36:54Håkan KarlssonNo, I cannot say anything.

36:56Jawad MirNo worries. Sounds good. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time. Unless you wanna add anything else at the very end, please do so. I had…

37:05Håkan KarlssonNo

37:05Jawad Mir... Pleasure talking to you and learning from you.

37:08Håkan KarlssonPleasure to talk to you. I'm happy.

37:11Jawad MirPerfect. Thank you so much for your time.

37:13Håkan KarlssonThank you.

37:13Jawad MirTake care. Bye-bye.

37:14Håkan KarlssonYeah, bye.