Directing 'Sopranos' & 'Alias', Dan Attias

0:00Jawad MirYou know, silence sort of, and performance reveals the character's motives. Normally when there's an argument with a couple where there's a cheating involved, there's yelling and screaming. But in this, you're just left for wanting more. You know, you want the…

0:13Dan AttiasYeah, and it's like, and when you speak of silence, I mean, just, you know, if people wanna look at the end of that episode, Mergers and Acquisitions, it's so great. Tony has been d… moving away from her all throughout, and finally she's just, you know, and the audience knows exactly what's at issue even though no one has said a word about it. And she just says, "Tony, you know, is there anything you wanna talk about?" You know, 'cause it's like she knows that he knows that she put that fingernail right for him to see, that, you know, right for him to see. We all know what this, th… this time bomb that could explode, and then she's just looking at him, and we milk that moment because it's like that's where all the fun is. I see on your bookshelf you have a book on E.T. I was the second assistant director on E.T.

1:09Jawad MirYes, I know. Which I would love to talk about another day.

1:13Dan AttiasWe can talk about anything you want. I'm, I'm completely open.

1:15Jawad MirOkay.

1:15Dan AttiasI know you mentioned a couple of shows. Those are fine, or whatever, wherever you wanna go with it.

1:21Jawad MirWell, you mentioned E.T. So let's just start with that. I'm a…

1:24Dan AttiasOkay

1:24Jawad Mir... Firm believer of just…

1:25Dan AttiasAll right. Yeah

1:25Jawad Mir... Going with it.

1:27Dan AttiasOkay.

1:27Jawad MirYou know. Just, I don't know anything about your involvement in E.T. So walk me through how you got onto that film, and I'm assuming that was one of the early works that you…

1:37Dan AttiasOh, yeah. Well, I mean, I…

1:38Jawad Mir... Were involved with

1:39Dan Attias... I, once I started directing, I left off... Well, actually, the story is I was in film school, in graduate school, and I, in film production, and I didn't have a thesis film I wanted to make. So I thought, well, you know, I don't wanna, you know, use... I didn't wanna be a career film student until I figured that out. So I said, "Well, how might I learn, you know, to direct, keep working on that before, until I have my thesis film?" And I thought, well, maybe if I became an assistant director, not really understanding then that's a very different job than assistant directing. It's, you know, you're doing a lot of other things, which is, you know, brass tacks and getting people their, you know, information and all that. Although you do often stage background, which in E.T. I did stage a lot of the background, and I'm… including, like, the Halloween sequence of the kids all going out and all that. So, but I got into the assistant director's training program, and I worked as a trainee assistant director for two years, and then as a s… official in the DGA second assistant director.

2:45Dan AttiasAnd I worked on a lot of big pictures, and E.T. Was probably the biggest. And, so that's how I got involved with it. Yeah.

2:54Jawad MirAnd what was it kinda like at the time? You know, Steven had already done Jaws, Close Encounters, Raiders, so he was already, you know, very big director.

3:05Dan AttiasYes, but it was a very interesting time because, he had made,.. What was the picture he made that was the critic…

3:16Jawad MirOh, n… 1941, I think or something like…

3:18Dan AttiasYeah, 1941. That's right.

3:19Jawad MirYeah.

3:20Dan AttiasSo when I… This was 1982. No, 1981 I st… I came on it, and, it was released in May of '82. We finished filming, I think, in around January of, maybe the end of the year '81. And, but when I started working as a, in prep on E.T., I don't think Raiders had come out quite yet. When does R… when was Raiders released? Do you know?

3:47Jawad Mir'80. 1980.

3:51Dan AttiasWell, in any case, he was still suffering from the, blowback from 1941 because…

3:59Jawad Mir'80... Sorry to interrupt. '81 it was, not '80. My apologies.

4:01Dan AttiasYeah, '81. Good.

4:02Jawad MirYeah.

4:03Dan AttiasThat's what I thought, because that's when we were prepping, E.T. And he obviously had, you know, amazing early success. But he did get, kind of grouped into, the directors who were perceived, primarily, I guess, John Landis, who, you know, what was his big debacle? Oh, Blues Brothers, which was, like, kind of a study in just... He was, he would be loving how many police cars he had crashed and how much money he was spending. And so everybody was thinking, "Ugh, poster boy of, like, these young entitled directors who have no discipline." And Steven got, you know, guilt by association a bit because he had made another big movie like that, 1941, although he was never as, you know, profligate with his resources as Landis would, was proud of being. And also, w… I don't know when Heaven's Gate was, but you know how Cimino would brag, "Oh, we just crashed a million feet of film.

5:05Dan AttiasI'm so happy we're..." You know, you know, f… so there was a, you know, a lot of upset with certain young talent. And Steven had made this big picture that was a l… you know, a lot of stunts and all that, and, you know, it was actually, successful in a lot of ways. But, I think he was determined to show, "Wait a minute, wait a minute, I can do things on a budget." And that's what E.T. Was supposed to be. It was supposed to be his little film, which would cost very little, and he'd come in, you know, without, you know, he'd make a good film for I think under $10 million, which is, I think, s… some… that's in my head is, like, what the budget was. And, so it was definitely a low but concei… everything, everybody understood, "Hey, we're doing this for a low, a small price. We're not, you know, no big stars, no names, no big production things. It's just gonna be this little story, and he's gonna make a really good movie that can, he can show he can do it for a budget." I don't think… I certainly never had an idea that it was gonna be this huge blockbuster.

6:10Dan AttiasI mean, it was like his little film. And, it wasn't until we started making it, you know… I mean, maybe he and Melissa Mathison, who wrote it, maybe they had visions for what it could've, could be. But, you know, I certainly didn't expect it, you know, when we started working on it was gonna be m… you know, much more than a small film, really a superb little gem of a film. But who knew it was gonna take off like it did? But everything was done, frankly, on the cheap. I mean, it's like there was very little budget for special effects. There was very little budget for, doing anything there. It was just… Most of the scenes were without anything, you know, extraordinary needed to shoot them. And, so when it came out, it was, you know, it was stunning 'cause it just took…

7:00Jawad MirYeah

7:00Dan Attias...the wo… world by storm. Yeah.

7:03Jawad MirI mean, you were right. With the budget, it was ten point five million, I think.

7:06Dan AttiasYeah.

7:06Jawad MirAnd, I actually even had, I don't know if you remember working with him. He was starting out at the time, too, production designer, James Bissell.

7:14Dan AttiasJim Bissell, yeah.

7:15Jawad MirYeah.

7:15Dan AttiasMeet Jim. Yeah.

7:16Jawad MirI… Yeah.

7:16Dan AttiasYeah.

7:17Jawad MirI had him, maybe a couple of months ago, and he talked about his little story…

7:21Dan AttiasYeah

7:21Jawad Mir...of starting out, so.

7:22Dan AttiasYeah.

7:22Jawad MirA lot of people's careers were, you know, getting off the, you know, from Star Wars, you know, Spielberg works, and all the other stuff, like, you know, Robert Zemeckis, James Cameron, all those names that, you know…

7:34Dan AttiasRight

7:34Jawad Mir...not a lot of people in new generation have no idea who the heck they are.

7:37Dan AttiasRight. Right.

7:38Jawad MirBut, yeah, no, th-those were the times. I truly enjoy '80s and even '90s, which kinda leads me to your work, you know, on Sopranos and so many other shows. I never actually experienced Sopranos when it was being aired because at the time, I think it was just HBO, and there was no way of getting, you know, Napster-type kind of approach to…

8:00Dan AttiasRight

8:00Jawad Mir...getting shows.

8:01Dan AttiasRight.

8:01Jawad MirYou know, you had to wait. And, I re-watched some of the episodes and the same thing with Alias. And, you know, I saw… And then I saw an interview of you, which was so bang on. I think you were talking about a scene from Sopranos, and you were talking about the importance of silence in a dialogue. And that is so true because the si… I think you said, if my memory serves me right, "Silence gives audience so much to think about as opposed to a dialogue would," because it just, you know, keep… builds this curiosity.

8:32Dan AttiasWell, it's really, it's really, to me, where the feelings live.

8:36Jawad MirYeah.

8:37Dan AttiasYou know, if… It's like the silence… And that's really true for an actor as well. If you can get them just to stop talking for a moment, you know, slow down. I mean, that's… it's always a funny tension because, you know, generally we're… as directors, we're worried about pacing and don't let it drop and all that, you know. But, often when things are rushed, you lose the feeling entirely. And it's,.. So in editing, often it's like a matter of really gauging how much time you want of space, pregnant space, but space before you come in with the next beat. Because emotionally, it's like without, you know, it's like that's when it really cooks and gestates and, you know, goes in. So silence is often really your friend. Yeah.

9:28Jawad MirHundred percent. I… It's, it's funny, you know, I have directed feature documentaries, and I've used that technique, not intentionally, just because in documentaries things kinda happen at their own momentum.

9:38Dan AttiasYeah.

9:39Jawad MirAnd now getting into narrative, just to kind of, you know, make it very quick, there was a very… There was a scene in the film that I'm, you know, pre-production. It was a fina… It was a climax, and I noticed that my… the dialogue was going on forever. It was three pages long, and then I killed the dialogue completely. And it was, like, the most amazing thing. I even felt it. Like, you know, just the, you know, on paper how the characters were interacting with each other, the tension builds, and it's just such a beautiful thing.

10:10Dan AttiasYeah.

10:10Jawad MirLess is more. You know what they say…

10:11Dan AttiasYeah

10:11Jawad Mir...less is more.

10:12Dan AttiasYeah. Yeah.

10:15Jawad MirI w… Let's start with The Sopranos. I have these questions written out.

10:18Dan AttiasSure.

10:19Jawad MirYou know, you directed, if I have it right, the only… you directed only the second episode of Sopranos. I think it was called 46 Long, if my memory serves.

10:28Dan AttiasThat was the second episode of Sopranos.

10:30Jawad MirYeah.

10:30Dan AttiasIt was the first one after the pilot, yeah.

10:32Jawad MirYeah. How much were you…

10:33Dan AttiasNo, but then I d… but I directed three others la-later.

10:36Jawad MirOthers, yes.

10:36Dan AttiasYeah.

10:37Jawad MirYes.

10:37Dan AttiasRight. Yeah.

10:38Jawad MirHow much were you helping to establish the show's balance of violence, humor, and family drama based on the pilot? Like, you know, now the pilot is done. Now you have to sort of…

10:47Dan AttiasYeah

10:47Jawad Mir...carry it on…

10:48Dan AttiasYeah

10:48Jawad Mir...and sort of mix it up.

10:50Dan AttiasThat was one of the most fun and intriguing challenges I've had because, I mean, I was a pretty young director myself. But, David Chase, who always has this… I mean, a brilliant writer, a… and he always has really admired directing and directors and aspires to that, has aspired to that himself, has now directed, a couple of feature films as well. But he really has great respect for directors and humility about it, too. I mean, when he, when he was getting set to direct the pilot of The Sopranos, I mean, he was soliciting, advice from people about directing and it was… And he, you know, he really was trying to kind of find his way, and he just found his way into a brilliant combination of tones and, you know, and seriousness and levity and all that. And it's very hard to make a formula out of it. It's really a feel kind of thing about when you want that kind of visceral shock about, "Oh my God, these guys are no joke," and then something hysterically funny, so unpredictably, who they are.

11:59Dan AttiasSo it was just the second episode, and what was interesting is it was many months after the pilot, I got called by David to do the second episode, you know, a few months before I started it. And I had met David he… 'cause he was the showrunner the last season of Northern Exposure, which was a show I did. And, he… you know, I did an episode that he was very fond of and he, and I was, I s… still feel very gratified that he thought to call me to do that first episode after the pilot, which was, I think, about six or eight or nine months after he had made the pilot. So it was a new genre, clearly. I mean, it was just... And I was thrilled watching it. It was like, it would g… it's like gave you permission to just break the boundaries that, you know, all in the television, certainly network television give you, like how you shoot a scene and what kinda coverage you need and what kinda lenses you use. He just... I was really struck by the freedom that, probably it may have came from him just kind of, you know, well, this, he, just responding to feel himself since he hadn't directed a lot and he was just doing what felt right.

13:12Dan AttiasSo I loved the wide angle lenses that he had chosen for the pilot a lot, and I chose to really do a lot of that, a lot of the scenes in wide angle close-ups and super wide things and, you know, and using, and like in the scenes in the, with the, in therapy, you know, sometimes often very high, looking down, like these two were like Tony is like, who's this mob boss from other, in other situations, and this scary character which generally you want kind of a low angle to make him scary. When you l… when you put the camera high up looking down, it's like he's like a specimen. You're observing him, which is also, I think, the show's, the show's point of view really liked to vastly that. So you, so you know how I approach any show, it's like you really wanna say sub… s… say subjectively how do I feel? Every choice you make is a subjective choice, or it should be. It shouldn't just be a formulaic choice, I think. And what feeling do you want? And it was really fun to just gauge at each moment when, you know, what kind of, how the camera could help create this bizarre, interesting, unpredictable violence coming out of nowhere world.

14:27Dan AttiasSo it's, it's hard to answer that question 'cause it's like, it's just a question of feel, as it always is, you know?

14:34Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's similar with editing, right? Like, you just have this feel as an editor of pacing, like where things should just pause.

14:41Dan AttiasRight.

14:41Jawad Mir'Cause every scene is a film by itself. Like, it has a beginning, middle…

14:45Dan AttiasRight. It's a little story. All right. A little…

14:47Jawad MirYeah

14:47Dan Attias... What's the story of this scene, right? Where does it start? What happens? Who are the characters? What's their history, and what happens in the scene? What happens? 'Cause you get to some place, something has happened. And the best, I think the best, scenes and the best stories are when what happens is interesting. It's like on the level of maybe, you know, character and understanding of the world and, you know, what's really happening, what's really going on, something getting revealed that was true, but you just didn't know it until this moment. Or what has the c… character learned, you know, instead of just, well, they got something. They got some intention. You know, that's, that's a basic one. But, when characters transform, I think that's when we really are fascinated, you know?

15:35Jawad MirIt's interesting you talked about transformation of a character, right? So I'm, I'm gonna talk about my experience in the w… the documentary narrative world, right? So versus narrative fiction world. You… in the work that I have done, most of the times I have no clue where the story is going, at least, you know, after the first act. You're kind of as an audience member in real time trying to figure out how things are unfolding and the characters unfolding right in front of you.

16:03Dan AttiasAre you talking about documentaries now?

16:05Jawad MirYeah.

16:05Dan AttiasYeah. All right.

16:06Jawad MirI'm just, I'm just talking about documentaries. That's what happens…

16:08Dan AttiasYeah

16:08Jawad Mir... In documentaries real time. Now…

16:08Dan AttiasNo, I, that's why I'm fascinated about documentaries, and I'll just say, but just let me get this in, that…

16:13Jawad MirSure

16:13Dan Attias... You know, often I've been really pleased with editors who come out of documentaries because they're very conscious of what story are we telling, and that's, to me, the key question I'm always asking. What story are we telling? And then you make it the most int… oh, 'cause it's how you define the story distinguishes one storyteller from another. And editors who, into documentaries are all about that, right? 'Cause you're just dealing with raw reality, so what's the story here? What can I, how can I narrow the focus to something interesting? Yeah.

16:45Jawad MirYeah. That's, that's accurate. And in that same, you know, breath, the question I have is that in fiction narrative, let's say Sopranos or anything else that you worked on, you know, there is a script, right? You're following a script, but sometimes actors kinda deviate, they improvise, they do things that changes things up for the betterment of the script that may not have been there in terms of the whole story and the arc. Has that ever happened in front of your eyes as a director?

17:18Dan AttiasOh, it has, like…

17:18Jawad MirAnd how do you feel you were…

17:19Dan AttiasYes. Yes. It's the most exciting time, and you have to be ready for it by being fully prepared about what are the issue… what are, what are, what's at issue in this story, in this script, in this scene? Because if o… only if you're aware of what are the elements at play here can you, can you respond intelligently to what s… some different idea that an actor might come up with. Because coming up with a different idea doesn't mean it's right. I mean, often as a director you, a d… an actor might say, "Oh, I really wanna do it this way." And I'm, and I have to evaluate q… quickly, is this help… is this helping? Is this making it a better story, a more interesting story? Is it going into an area that I think is gonna be rich and kind of add to the full canvas, or is it gonna be a distraction? Is it gonna be from a different movie, and it's gonna be you know, hurt the narrative flow is gonna… or out of character, you know. Because, I mean, that's always interesting because, you know, character's not just the actor who's playing it.

18:22Dan AttiasYou know, the actor who's, the great actors are able to somehow, channel a character and do the appropriate thing and not just, you know, something they are personally in life good at doing and then bring that to the character and, it's not the character that's written or it's not the character that makes this story make sense. So it, so but all the time there's, when you're dealing with, you know, talented actors who are steeped in the story themselves, steeped in the imaginary circumstances, they may come up with an inspired idea. I mean, we're talking about The Sopranos. I can think of…

18:59Jawad MirSure

18:59Dan Attias... There's, the, there's an end of, the, there's a scene in, one of the episodes I directed was, I think in the fourth season, I think it was called Mergers and Acquisitions. And at the end of it, at the end, the whole last scene is this, it was this great marital conflict between Tony and Carmela, and she's caught him out at, of that he's had an affair. Beginning of the story is they're coming together and he's promising, "No, we're gonna be together. I'm not gonna screw around at all." Then she discovers that he has, and she's laid a trap for him to kind of bust him, and he's aware of that. And at the end of the s… script, she's kind of waiting in the kitchen. She puts some incriminating evidence on his nightstand where he's gonna pick up his keys and change as he's getting ready in the morning, and he sees this telltale fingernail, painted fingernail, which, okay, she knows. And so he's about to go to... But she hasn't said anything. And, so it's just a brilliantly written, talk about silences, you know, it's like this just brilliantly written scene. Very spare dialogue. Never is the affair mentioned, never is the, noth… it's not mentioned. They're both avoiding, waiting for someone to bring it up, so she's wanting him to bring it up so she can pounce, "You motherfucker, you did this."

20:17Dan AttiasYou know, but she's just waiting, and he knows he can't say anything to her about it, 'cause if he does, she's, she's holding all the cards. So we're rehearsing the scene and, Jim Gandolfini, we, I put, you know, Edie Falco playing Carmela, you know, seated in this, at this dining room table as he comes down the stairs behind her. And Tony, or Jim Gandolfini, made this amazing choice, I thought, which was he didn't get anywhere near her. He walked to the far end of the kitchen talking to her. And then when she got up to go do something that he had asked her to do, he walks away from her to the other end of the house. I mean, this odd choice, and very challenging to cover the scene because it's like, you can't have a frame…

21:00Jawad MirRight

21:00Dan Attias... You know. And but it was so brilliant because it was like he's saying, "I'm not getting anywhere near her," which is the exact right emotional beat, and she's very frustrated, and he's evading her probing questions. And at the end, it's kind of this stalemate, and that's how the show ends. And it's really great, but it all came, you know, it came from Jim just having this, connecting to the scene, following an impulse, and it was very different from the staging I'd had in mind. But, you know, like I try to do, certainly when there's time, but I try always to let the actors show me what they wanna do first. I often will have a staging in mind and I'll, I'll try to suggest it to them and why I think it makes sense, because staging also is communicating. So yeah, I think our physical actions and our body, you know, there's body language and there's, and our physical action, you know, often reveals our inner states, what we're choosing to do. So I'll, I'll generally have a plan in mind, almost always will have a plan in mind, but I wanna see what the actors will come up with.

22:02Dan AttiasAnd this was a case where just, wow, just blew me out of the water. I w… I wrote a book on directing, which, it's called Directing Great Television: Inside TV's New Golden Age. And, I wrote a whole chapter on staging the scene and that, I talk about that scene in particular as one that, was a brilliant, result from being open to what your collaborators can bring to the process once you provide the vision for what the story is about. And, you know, in this case, these actors were so c… close to the story, they didn't need much help from me to understand what was going on. But, you know, the, if you're not open to collaborators' input, you're really cutting off your nose to spite your face.

22:52Jawad Mir100%. And it's interesting that, you know… ... James' character, it's a complete contrast of the world that he's outside of the home, you know, instilling fear in people's lives and then he is afraid…

23:05Dan AttiasYeah

23:05Jawad Mir... Himself, right?

23:05Dan AttiasYeah.

23:06Jawad MirThat's what I love. And I'm so glad you brought that up because my next question was about that, and you pretty much covered it.

23:12Dan AttiasOh, good.

23:12Jawad MirThat how, you know…

23:13Dan AttiasYeah

23:13Jawad Mir... Silence sort of, and performance reveals the character's motives…

23:18Dan AttiasRight

23:18Jawad Mir... And all that.

23:18Dan AttiasRight.

23:19Jawad MirAnd I think, and I think that's a fine example.

23:22Dan AttiasYeah.

23:22Jawad MirYou know, normally you watch films like Nothing A… Nothing Again, I love that film too, like, this ca… comes to my mind, Revolutionary Road with Sam Mendes directed with DiCaprio and Kate Winslet, like a broken marriage or The Marriage Story. Like, you know, normally when the, there's an argument with a couple or there's a cheating involved, there's yelling and screaming, which is very natural, that does happen. But in this, it was just so brilliantly executed that you're just left for wanting more, you know, you want them just to…

23:47Dan AttiasYeah. And it's like, and when you speak of silence, I mean, just, you know, if people wanna look at the end of that episode, Mergers and Acquisitions, it's so great because at the end of this one scene, you know, Tony has been da… moving away from her all throughout, and finally she's just, you know, and the audience knows exactly what's at issue even though no one has said a word about it, and she just says, "Tony, you know, is there anything at all you..." You wanna talk about? You know, 'cause it's like she knows that he knows that she put that fingernail right for him to see, that, you know, right for him to see. We all know what, that this time bomb that could explode, and she's frustrated he hasn't mentioned it, and keeps evading, saying, "Nope, not, no problem, no problem," you know? And she says, "Are you sure?" And he just looks at her, takes a beat, you know, let it milk. What's gonna happen? That silence, that's where you think what's gonna happen. If he answers…

24:44Jawad MirYeah

24:44Dan Attias... Right away, it's not there. And then he, she, he finally says, he says, "No. Like what?" And then she's just looking at him, and we milk that moment because it's like that's where all the fun is. These two characters, like, w… just, she's just didn't get what she expected, didn't get the satisfaction of being able to lay into him, and she's just holding her fire in this moment. All, and it's all happening because it's silent. And then she…

25:12Jawad MirYeah

25:13Dan Attias... Says, she just says, "Okay." That they've... So the sense is, all right, these two are formidable adversaries, and they're gonna live to fight another day. So it's, it's great, yeah.

25:24Jawad MirYeah.

25:25Dan AttiasYeah.

25:25Jawad MirWell, very true. You know, directing, as fun as it is, it is, you know, you're the captain of a ship. It is a very demanding and challenging job, right? Especially on a set, you have to, you know, you're working with the actors. Yes, your AD is working with the crew, but you still have to sort of make sure everything else is sort of floating, you know, on the ocean. Sometimes, I would say a lot of times, if not all the times, dir… directors are very nervous, no matter how much experience you've had. Like, you know, you're dealing with everybody. But you have to put on, for the lack of better word, this act…

25:58Dan AttiasYou have, you have to be…

25:59Jawad Mir... That you're all…

26:00Dan AttiasWell, you're the leader

26:00Jawad Mir... Right, you're, everything is good. Yeah.

26:01Dan AttiasYou're, you're the leader. And it's like, so, you know, you say the AD works for the crew, that's true, too, but the crew is always mindful of you as the director because…

26:10Jawad MirYeah

26:10Dan Attias... If you don't, if you don't exude a sense of you are guiding the ship, you know where you're going, you know what you want, you're competent, you're tr… you're confident in your own ability to make a decision. It's not like you always have to have the answers. You can be in process. You can be in the process of making the decision, but you have to always exude the sense that you take responsibility. Says, "Yeah, I may not have the answer yet, but I will get it. We are working towards it now." And you also have to have a sense of, I mean, the, 'cause the crew just will not... Well, let me put it positively. The crew will break its neck for you, will do whatever they can for you if they really trust that you're gonna make something great, that you're, that their efforts are gonna be, you know, rewarded by some, the, some really good product, that the director is gonna make use of their talents. If they work quickly and efficiently, give the director more time to finesse a performance instead of just getting the actors with five minutes left before you have to wrap for the day, you know, and everybody's re… You know, they appreciate.

27:14Dan AttiasThey wanna be efficient themselves so the director can work with the actors efficient… you know, and get the most out of it. So you have to, you know, constantly, you know, be excited yourself, I think, for what you're doing, passionate about it. And I'm not saying loud or fa… You know, it's like y… you can be quietly passionate. You can be quiet, you can, and quiet, and you can be seri… being serious about something doesn't mean you don't have a sense of humor. But you're enjoying it. And also, y… y… I think the crew has to feel respected, so the director can't just feel entitled to everything, you know? It's like there can be, there's a two-way street. A director has to be humane and human and don't ask what's unrealistic. Or if you are, and there are times when you have to ask for a superhuman effort from people. I've written another chapter in the book about a time like that, too, when the sun was going down and we were trying to shoot a four-page sequence at magic hour and, you know. And it's like, but you create the right, the right atmosphere where everybody feels like we're trying to do something great here.

28:18Dan AttiasLet's try to do it, and not fall into blame or yelling or, you know, being a jerk, and that their efforts are gonna be rewarded with thanks. It's a lot of elements going on, yeah.

28:29Jawad MirAnd isn't it…

28:29Dan AttiasAnd what you said, yeah. Well, you said…

28:31Jawad MirSorry, go on

28:31Dan Attias... Wait, I just to say also, you said, yeah, yes, another, keep referencing my book, but I, you know, I said it, but…

28:38Jawad MirPlease

28:39Dan Attias... I really, but I feel about this book, and I hope people might have a look at it. But, you know, I wrote a whole chapter as I was thinking about how to describe what the directing experience is, and I realized I need a chapter on inner states. It's like people don't talk about it, how you have to develop an ability to, calm yourself, to, you know, deal with the inevitable stresses and not lose it and not, you know, look to be rescued by other people because, yes, you can be asking for help, but you have to, you know, still maintain your composure and, you have to develop... I mean, you know, meditation is a great skill to develop mindfulness. So that you have to, there's so many states you have to learn how to deal with internally to direct well because the big one of the big ones is the one you mentioned, when you're under stress, when you think, "Oh, my God, this is impossible. It's all gonna be a disaster." Well, okay, that's how you feel at that moment, and you have to still stay in the game.

29:40Dan AttiasAnd you p… you know, when you pull it out of your hat at the end and you get it's a great feeling. Yeah.

29:46Jawad MirIn my, in my experience, and that doesn't mean this is true all the time, when you do feel, when I do feel like, "Oh, my God, how the hell is this gonna work?"

29:55Dan AttiasYeah.

29:55Jawad MirLike, it's a disaster, nine out of 10 times, it turns out better than in other situations where everything seems to be going okay.

30:02Dan AttiasYeah, I think that's absolutely right, yeah, because when we get pushed to our extremes, it calls on resources that we don't even know we have, and we… ... You know, and th… and those are the real resources that all of us can have access to if we just get rid of our ego. I mean, we all that tend to wanna look good and want safety and security and know, okay, I know I can do it that way, but is that the best way? I don't know, but I know I could do it that way. Yeah, is that the best way? Is there more here? And then you gotta en… venture out into the unknown. I don't know the answer to this, but I'm gonna stay open to let's explore it a little bit. But the clock's ticking. You gotta make a decision. I know, and maybe I'm only gonna give myself 10 more minutes to see if I can come up with a way to incorporate this great idea someone came up with, or this great idea I just came up with that I hadn't thought about, or seeing something new in the scene that I hadn't anticipated and I really wanna find out what that, what that will, that will lead us. And I'm, you know, telling an actor something, and maybe the actor doesn't understand it, and trying to figure out how can I, how can I trigger an insight into this actor that I'm sensing is here, you know?

31:12Dan AttiasAnd, you know, are they gonna look at me like I'm, like I'm crazy, I'm asking something, and, you know. And then you, and sometimes you gotta say, "Okay, sorry. D… let's, let's forget about that. Let's go back and do it this other way." But if you don't ex… if you don't play, you're, you're stuck with the way it's always been done before. Yeah.

31:31Jawad MirVery true. Very true. In your experience, and I'm not looking for any names, and I'm sure it happens all the time, have you seen things falling apart when you're not directing or before you became a director, where the director's leadership skills didn't really get executed properly as the way he would've envisioned, everything sort of fell apart on set? Have you witnessed that and the calmness that is not there, the stress that kicks in?

31:55Dan AttiasWell, as an assistant director, I got to work for... I did it for two year, you know, for two years as a trainee and two years as a second AD, so I worked with a lot of directors. And, yeah, I mean, it's generally, people who aren't prepared, who haven't really figured out the story they're telling, so they get lost. Because you have to make thousands of just quick decisions, and if you don't have an sense of the overall vision of this story or where I want it to... You know, you don't, if you don't have something to connect to and so that you can trust your intuition when people ask, "Should it be this shirt or this shirt? Should it be this, you know, should we look this way or that way, or should we... " It's like you need to have... If you don't do the preparation to really be inside the story, inside the characters, to trust your intuition about what's the right choice, if you're not able to ask people's, and then from that place, be able to solicit other ideas from, say, the camera man or woman and, or, you know, the production designer.

32:57Dan AttiasBut not just to take their ideas because you need a life raft. Whatever you say, "Oh, you want, should I look that way? Okay, I'll look that way," that's just, you know, throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it all comes together at the end, and that's, that's when it can really fall apart. But if you're, if you hold onto the thread of the story and know what you want the audience's experience to be or what the feelings you want the audience to have, you have a much better chance of making the right decisions. But yeah, when you don't, haven't done preparation... And I, that's, that's something early in my career, you know, I got hit upside the head in the first couple of episodes of TV I did, because I was not aware of how much I had to prepare. And so you get into the line of fire, and there's all kinds of questions that come up that you haven't even thought of. And then if you have to kind of think of it then, when the, everyone's standing around for an answer, then it could go south real quick. And I've seen that. I've seen that.

33:51Jawad MirYeah.

33:52Dan AttiasYeah.

33:53Jawad MirYeah. Fair enough.

33:55Dan AttiasYeah.

33:56Jawad MirWell, you're talk, what, I mean, Sopranos, just the last, we kind of touched upon this already in the context of, you know…

34:04Dan AttiasYeah

34:04Jawad Mir... Being prepared, right?

34:06Dan AttiasYeah.

34:06Jawad MirSo you look at, you look at Tony's character, you know, he's threatening, he's funny, he's vulnerable, and in a sc… in one scene, right? In one scene throughout the series, or it's at least the episode that you directed. How do you handle that, whether it's come in terms of preparation or whether it's just the execution working with, you know, James or any other character that you…

34:27Dan AttiasI'm sorry. How do I handle what? How do I…

34:29Jawad MirLike, how do you, how do you handle the, all three elements, like, you know, him being vulnerable, him being threatening, him being funny, making…

34:36Dan AttiasWell, you have to decide, you have to decide what the, what the story demands, what, where we are in the story. And, you know, 'cause sometimes he's not vulnerable at all. He's pitiless and merciless and a total stone-cold killer. You don't want even a glimmer of humanity. You just want him to be just implacable. You know, other times, I mean, it goes often to the, to the tone, to the tone of the moment. I'm, you're just making me remind, reminding me of another episode I did. Forget what the episode was called, but Tony was, it was very funny because he was trying to retire. He was trying to, said, "I should en… I should enjoy myself more. I should, I've got all this success. I've got money. You know, I'm gonna just not work so hard. I'm gonna let my other guys handle some stuff. I'll delegate, and I'm gonna just enjoy." And he finds up just being bored to tears. He goes to the mall. He's walking around, you know, "Well, how am I spending my time?"

35:37Dan AttiasAnd it's, and it's like, so there's this one very funny scene where he's told, like Christopher and Paulie, what, which character was Stevie Van Zandt? I'm forgetting what his name was.

35:50Jawad MirYeah, I'm not good with character names

35:51Dan Attias... It wasn't Paulie. Yeah. Oh, it was little... Anyway, each, these guys have been told by the boss, "Don't bring your little stuff to me. I'm trying to retire." So they're trying to protect him, you know, but he's, they're all out at dinner, and he's bored to tears. Tony's bored to tears with his girlfriend, and he's looking out, and he sees, he sees Christopher and, Silvio, I think that's his... Man, I think it's Silvio. I'm not sure. Anyway, it's Stevie Van Zandt and Christopher, and he goes up to them, and they're in this intense conversation. He says, "So what's, what's the problem? What's going on?" And they're, they're saying, "Well, you didn't want us to bother you with stuff, so we… don't worry. We… we're handling this." "No, just tell me. Maybe I can solve it for you," you know. And he says, "Well, so and so and so happens." And Tony says, "What? You did that? You..." You know, it's like he just says, "You guys are fucking incompetent," and it's like, "I can't fucking believe this," you know. And the first version he did was really serious. He was really angry. He was scary Tony, right?

36:53Dan AttiasAnd it's like, so I'm thinking, there's something wrong here. It's like, again, directing to me is a matter of always asking yourself, how does this make me feel? Is this right or not? And there was something very clearly not right to me. I didn't wanna see scary Tony at this point. What did I wanna see? And I thought, well, what's the story? The story is Tony is really... It's a comic situation. He's trying to retire and enjoy, but he's bored out of his mind. He wants to be that scary mob boss. That ga… made him who he was. And so, and then I thought, and it's like, and what they're saying, they didn't really make such a bad thing, but he's playing this part of being tough. Says, "I can't believe it." It's like he wants to get angry at them. He's not really angry at them. So I start, I try to explain that to Jim Gaffney, and he's listening to me. He's, he was so brilliant. I said, "Jim, you know, it's not like this, that what they did was really terrible. It's just you are so bored out of your mind, you're just glad to have something to feel strongly about it."

37:56Dan AttiasAnd he said, he says, and I'm going on and on and on, and he says, "It… you want it funny." And, you know, usually you don't give result directions to people. You know, you don't say that kind of thing. I said, "Yeah." And he says, "Okay, I got it." And the next moment, he does this take that was so hilarious 'cause he just says, you know, he starts asking, "What, you did that?" It's like, well, you know, and he's like, he, it's like he's not the scary Tony. He's like, he's like, you know, you got right away what the story was he's just trying to tell them, "You guys need me," you know? You know, it's like, you know. And it was like, so that's, that's a g… that goes to, like, just always knowing what story you're telling and what's happening at this moment 'cause there's, you know, usually 10 ways you can play a scene, but what's the right way to play it in this story you're telling? That's what I mean. When you're the storyteller, you gotta own it, and you gotta love it, and you gotta see what each moment needs to be to build the story towards where it's go… towards where it wants to go.

38:57Dan AttiasSo that's my answer to how you navigate those things. What is required? What is, what is the best thing for the story? The chara… and the character's own kinda development.

39:10Jawad MirAmazing. That's, that's such a great answer.

39:12Dan AttiasYeah.

39:12Jawad MirThank you so much for sharing that.

39:13Dan AttiasYeah.

39:14Jawad MirI mean, I'm learning so much, you know, every day talking to people on podcast, whether it's production design, the editor, and now, you know, from directing standpoint, the stuff that you've talked about. It's pretty obvious, but when you're in the moment, it's, doesn't, it's not obvious. Like, you know, you have to sort of practice it over and over again just to be in that, in that area.

39:33Dan AttiasBut you know what always comes to my aid is it's just like, I mean, if an actor feels like you're connected to something, they'll look to you, and it's like, so you can't be arrogant or, "This is how you should do it. This how you..." It's like, you know, if I come from my feelings, I have a better chance of the actor buying in and getting it. It's like, so I'm saying, "You know what it feels to me like this is what this moment wants to be in the story. It feels to me like, you know, it's not that. It's more..." You know, and then I'll try to support it with sto… like in that case, it was a good taste. Like, you know, To… you know, Jim, it's like you're bored out of your mind. You know, you're sitting over next to your goomar. That's what they call girlfriends, you know. You're watching. She's boring you to tears. This life of yours is just like it was supposed to be. Oh, you got the good life. You get to go out with your, you know, girlfriend and get a little on the side and eat steak at Rao's or wherever we were filming. And, you know, it's like, you know, and it's not enough. And that's what's, you know, and so what's enough?

40:33Dan AttiasThis crummy life I wanted to leave. L… you know, there's all this stressful life I was wanting to get away from. That gave me fun and a sense of purpose, at least I knew, you know. And you see this chance, and you go over there, and you're just trying to connect it to that in any way you can. You don't wanna kill these guys. You wanna get back to that. So it's like once you can share that s… that to an actor, they suddenly, you know, if they're a good actor…

40:59Dan Attias... You know, they suddenly get it right away. I re… I re…

41:01Jawad MirI think, so…

41:03Dan AttiasYeah.

41:03Jawad MirSorry, go on, please.

41:04Dan AttiasI was gonna say, I read a book. Mike Nichols was a great director, and there's some, there's a, there was a great, biography that came out on him recently. And, I was really fascinated to find out, 'cause a lot of actors, he did alienate several actors 'cause he could be kind of judgmental and peremptory and do some stuff. But he also, many actors said he was like the best director they'd ever worked with. But they also said that often the way he'd work was not to, was he'd kind of amble up to them after a scene or something, and he'd, he'd say, "You know," and he'd start telling a story, not mentioning the scene. He says, "You know, I once met a, I once had a shop teacher in junior high school, and, you know, he always did..." And he starts telling this story, and everybody's just listening, and he just tells the story, and he walks away, and it's like they got the note. It's like, so I think what he was doing was say, giving them a correlative. You know, it's like, here's what…

42:01Dan Attias... This scene is about. Now put yourself in that kind of world. And that's, I think that, I thought that was brilliant. So he wasn't telling the actor, "Say this line this way." He wasn't doing that. He was just appealing to them to say, "Put yourself in that story, 'cause the story you've put yourself in here is not interesting to me. It's not where we wanna go," you know?

42:22Jawad MirYeah. I'll talk about two points. I was watching this clip of Gary Oldman. He talked about You know, he's been in so many incredible films, right, like over the years.

42:32Dan AttiasYeah. Right.

42:32Jawad MirHe said, "The best, the best directing note that I ever got was from Christopher Nolan either on Dark Knight," you know, one of the three films of Batman, "and all he had to do was come to me and said, 'What's at stake?' That's it." And then it just, he just picked it up from there. He didn't tell him what to do, what not to do. He just explained the situation and what's at stake in terms of the character that you have, you're playing, Commissioner Gordon, or that relevant to the story. And then Tarantino talks about like, you know, any time he does auditions or first reads, he doesn't tell his actors how to do whatever they want, you know, what he wants them to do. He wants to see what they're bringing to the table because their be… way could be… better than his, right? So you don't shut that down.

43:16Dan AttiasBut I'm, I would guess that if they got on set and the actor brought something…

43:23Jawad MirOh, yeah

43:23Dan Attias... That wasn't what Tarantino wanted, he'd try to suggest s… you know, ways to get them to think the scene a little differently. To me, that's what it is. It's all it is how you're thinking about the scene, not, "Do this angry," or, "Do this crying," or, "Do this..." That's, that's what they call result directing, which doesn't help an actor because y… you know, it's like, it's the, it's the inner life that leads to the pro… appropriate thing. It's like you've gotta get them in the correct inner life, inner circumstances, inner situation w… or what's at stake. That's, that's, that's a great one. I think the stakes is always... And generally scenes are, a lot of the times the stakes just have to be heightened for the scene to take off, 'cause it, for to make it dramatic, they tend to need to be, you know, it's like, you know, n… not just I wanna have a good sandwich for lunch. You know? That's not, that's, you know, it's... But what, you know, how can you... I took an acting, I, for, before I became a director, I studied acting for three years, and I studied with a great teacher named Stella Adler, who was a legend.

44:26Dan AttiasAnd, I only, she was, she would only come to Los Angeles in summers when I was doing this, so I only s… spent a couple of months in her class watching her work. But she said something that I always, that I often fall back on thinking about. She says, "When you, when you're thinking about," she was telling this to actors, "when you're thinking about a scene you're in and a character, make this cha… make the characters co… make the issue big." It's like once you decide what they want, make it big. Can I make it a bigger issue why you want this? Make it a more important thing why you want what you want, you know, or why this is important to you. It can't just be, "Well, I like that," or, "I like this," or, "I prefer this," or I... Yeah, but can… let's make it bigger. You know what I mean? So that's a good, that's, that's always a very helpful thing, like why are you doing what you're doing? And usually if it's a well-written story or if a writer has thought the story was important enough to write a story about anyway, there's k… ample stuff in there you can see, what might they really be after?

45:29Dan AttiasAnd then make it bigger so the, so that the actor gets activated in a much deeper way. Yeah.

45:38Jawad MirYeah. I'll s… I'll share a story with you before I go on to Alias. I don't know if you know this AD, Peter Marshall, Peter D. Marshall. He lives in Canada now, in Vancouver, and I took a course with him s… like four or five years ago about... He's an AD on many big Hollywood films. He was talking about directing, you know, on... And he told us a story. He said he's not gonna name the film. He's not gonna name anything. So there was this film, a very big budget film where a new director was attached, and the director came on the set and he had no idea what the hell he was doing. Like, nada. Like, we're not even talking about direct… like, he just didn't know anything, and the AD had to take over. The director got the full credit. He never worked in Hollywood again. I still don't know who that is. But the idea was that the, more of the, what he was trying to say that a lot of people who come on the set are not vetted through. I don't know, maybe things are different now. Like, they're not vetted as to, you know, if they have the ability to direct or even have some sort of knowledge in storytelling.

46:43Jawad MirA lot of people think that they have it, but when you get on the set it's a completely different ballgame. There's so much people around you. So I just thought I should share with you because it's, it, these kind of things do happen, sadly, but it is, you know, you don't last that long if you don't come prepared…

46:56Dan AttiasRight

46:56Jawad Mir... Going back to what you're saying.

46:57Dan AttiasRight. Right. But I, but that's why assistant directing... I mean, I've, I've heard of several instances, and I have friends who are assistant directors who've told me that, "Yeah, I mean, I had to stage everything. I had to, I had to tell the camera what to the cameraman where to put the camera 'cause this person just came on and said, 'I don't know, whatever you think.'" Yeah. I mean, it's sh… it's shocking. And I would think that happens less now. But you know, it's like people get, you know, can get hired direct… they might be a writer and they've written a great script and they've always wanted to direct and they attach themselves as the director and they don't have a talent for that, you know? Or they don't have a, or they, or like I was when I started. I didn't, wasn't a... When, you know, when you start, you don't necessarily know…

47:40Jawad MirOf course

47:41Dan Attias... All the work that's required. So, yeah. I mean, that can happen. Yeah.

47:47Jawad MirLet's talk about Alias. So, you know, you, that was another groundbreaking show that came out. Even to this day, I think it's one of the most unique shows that ever made. And you directed, obviously, episodes from that show as well.

48:02Dan AttiasYeah.

48:02Jawad MirOne of the episodes that you directed, I think Breaking Point, you know, you, it's where Sydney goes through interrogation and torture, but at the same time she needs to be strong. It is kind of something that I've asked in S… in Case of Sopranos, but just to kind of more contextu… contextualize on Alias, how, you know, she was physically powerfu… powerless but strong. Do you remember directing that scene and what the process was?

48:30Dan AttiasI can remember visions of... I mean, I directed a lot of those. I think I did six or seven Aliases and each one, you know, had so many… You know, crazy fun plot twists and, you know, extreme situations. I don't re… it's not coming to mind that particular episode, except I can ima… I can remember her kinda strapped down and but Jennifer Garner was just such a trooper and so talented and fun and had such a great, you know, she has had a real steely, you know, when, I mean, I think that would be right in her wheelhouse to like, "I'm being tortured, but I'm not gonna give in, but I'm gonna feel it fully, but oh," you know, it's like, you know, that she just ate that kinda thing up 'cause she was great at it. So, but, you know, you just do what, say whatever comes to you. I mean, imagine it's like, you know, again, it's stakes, and that's another way of thinking about it. Yeah, it hurts so much, but what are the stakes? If I, if I say this thing, it means my, all my team will be assassinated. They'll be exposed. I can't do that.

49:31Dan AttiasI mean, you just amp up the conflict and the stakes, and actors like to act. They love conflicts like that. That's, that's easier than, in some ways, easier than the more subtle moments and the subtle scenes.

49:45Jawad MirIt, I was talking to, Eric Watson, who is a great friend and producer partner of Darren Aronofsky for films like, Requiem for a Dream, you know, and ... The Fountain, all that, and I asked him this question. He's a producer. You know, h… what is it like, w… have you ever felt vulnerable on the set? You know, and he said that…

50:05Dan AttiasHas a pro… I mean, has a producer ever felt vulnerable?

50:07Jawad MirYeah.

50:07Dan Attiashuh.

50:08Jawad MirYeah. And his answer was pretty straightforward and great, is like, you know, "Everybody comes to you as a pro… with problems. You have nobody to go to." Like, you know, you're the one who's sorta sucking it all up. Now…

50:18Dan AttiasWhich is also true of directors, yeah.

50:19Jawad MirI, yeah, I was gonna…

50:20Dan AttiasYeah

50:20Jawad Mir... I was gonna ask you.

50:21Dan AttiasRight.

50:22Jawad MirHas that ever happened to you? I'm sure it happened tons of time, but do you remember a specific moment when that happened where you felt like completely like, "What the hell is going on? I feel completely helpless and powerless"? Obviously, not putting it out to the world, but just inside yourself.

50:36Dan AttiasOh, y… sure. There have been some really tough shows. I mean, e… either it can be some sequence that for a variety of reasons has to be done in a certain limited amount of time, and it's a big sequence and there's many variables that you can't control. But you have to get all the elements working, and when the sun goes down, you're s… you're done. And, you know, can I do it? I mean, I remem… for some reason, I'm thinking of a episode I did very early in my career, I think in the 1990s, in Chicago, a show called Early Edition, and we had this huge sequence on an ice skating rink and a bomb d… that didn't go off that was going to go off, and a imaginary reality of the bomb had gone off and I was just, I couldn't sleep. I'd wake up, you know, and it's like showing up the day and like thinking, "We gotta finish by this m… sequence by this moment so I can get to that part of the sequence and that part of the sequence." That's, that's common.

51:36Dan AttiasI mean, that happens, you know, often. I mean, I did an episode, I'm thinking of an episode of Billions in the last, few years back, a season finale epis… season five of that show and this huge scene on the New York docks. And the, for some reason, the producers originally thought, "Oh, you need two days for that, right?" And I said, "I think I can do it in one day." And they said, "Oh, great." And they scheduled the whole show, and I thought, "What did I do?" And it's like, and we did it. But it's like, you know, there's, there's that... I mean, that's part of the fun. That's kind of the adrenaline junkie r… rush you get. It's like, "Can I do it? Can I do it? I don't know." And it's like, "I feel like I'm gonna die. I don't know." You know? That kinda thing happens. And then in terms of having no friend on the set, nobody, that can be really painful. And that does happen. You know, it's like when you're not working with people you're close to, and you're still responsible for everything, and everybody's looking to you for the answer and expecting you to figure it out, and, no one else will take the fall except you if it doesn't work out.

52:40Dan AttiasIt's not for the faint of heart. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart. But I will say it almost always works out. I don't know how that is. They do say directors' lifespan isn't as long as some of the other people.

52:54Jawad MirOh, they do say.

52:55Dan AttiasI'm sure, I'm sure there's a lot of stress that gets internalized. But, I've had many incidents like that. But most of them have turned out, and they've been the most rewarding 'cause you, 'cause you do something that's really great you didn't expect. Wow, it turned out. Or you just got by the skin of your teeth, and okay, at least it cuts. At least the story's getting told. Nobody knows of like how many c… compromises I felt I was making just to finish or settling for a performance that wasn't exactly what I wanted, and then you see in editing, well, it's okay 'cause we cut to something else there, and we created the moment editorially. You probably are familiar with that, you know?

53:32Jawad MirNo.

53:32Dan AttiasSo that, it's a, it's a real thrill ride, this job.

53:37Jawad MirIt is, and you talked about directors age. I mean, you look at Ridley Scott, he's 88. Clint Eastwood is like…

53:42Dan AttiasOh, my God. Yeah

53:43Jawad Mir... 95. He just retired. Spielberg is 79, right? And you have... And I mean, Ridley Scott, I look at him like, and he's making a movie a year. Like, it's like he in his head has figured out, "Okay, I don't know how much time I have, you know. Let's just go."

53:57Dan AttiasYeah.

53:57Jawad MirRight?

53:57Dan AttiasYeah.

53:57Jawad MirAnd he's just, like, making a movie a year, which is, which is crazy.

54:01Dan AttiasYeah.

54:01Jawad MirIt's crazy.

54:02Dan AttiasYeah.

54:02Jawad MirEspecially at that age. But, you know, we do talked about season finales. Whether it's a season finale that you're directing or a series finale of any show, obviously the stakes for you as a director are much higher in that than a regular episode would be throughout the season…

54:17Dan AttiasYeah

54:17Jawad Mir... Because you don't know how it's gonna be received…

54:20Dan AttiasYeah

54:20Jawad Mir... What the next season would hold. What, i… is that a different le… level of pressure when you're directing? Are you thinking about the season like a…

54:28Dan AttiasYou know, that's, I think that's probably changed a bit. You know, it used to be something called sweeps episodes because it's like… ... When they had the Nielsen ratings and all that, there used to be certain weeks were the one they're gonna, the networks were gonna decide the fate of a show based on how they did…

54:44Dan Attias... During s… what was called sweeps week. So if you got an episode of, "Oh my God, this is a sweeps episode," A, you knew a lot more people were gonna be watching, important people were gonna be watching it. And it might, you might have, you know, and everybody's gonna be nervous about how good it is because their, all their jobs are on the line if it gets picked up or not. Then there's always finales are always a challenge. First episodes are a challenge. Now I don't know if, I mean, pilots are always their own thing, but now it's like in these kind of shortened seasons of, like, six or eight episode shows or... It's like everyone feels important, and I don't know if anyone feels, e… any of them feel like everything depends on it. So I think that's probably a little less that way. But I mean, I still feel pressure every job I do. I want it to be great. You know, I f… I, you know, my own toughest critic, so I, you know, it's like, you know, I feel it's a great, opportunity to have people looking at what you're doing.

55:46Dan AttiasYou know, it's like a making... It's either gonna be a enhance their life or feel like you wasted their time, and I take that…... As, I feel like that's a terrible thing to be accused of. I…

55:58Jawad MirI, you know, I disagree with the wasting of their time, because what could be a waste…... Wasting of someone's time could be powerful and meaningful for somebody else, right?

56:06Dan AttiasHow so?

56:07Jawad MirLike, I…

56:07Dan AttiasOh. Oh, yeah

56:08Jawad Mir... I mean, I look at it this way, right? So I mean, we talk about, like, when you go to watch movies or TV shows, "Oh, that t… episode was terrible," or, "That show was terrible." But you don't know how a certain moment in a certain TV show or a movie, as bad as it could be, has affected an audience member to change their life, right? Like, that, I think that, to me, is the most powerful thing as storytellers, that if you find out as a director, as a writer, or, you know, as an actor that you have an impact on one life and you find out about it…

56:37Dan AttiasYeah

56:37Jawad Mir... It's the most kind of incredible feeling in the world.

56:39Dan AttiasYeah. Well, I'll tell you, it's funny. My first directing job was a feature film. It was Stephen King's Silver Bullet. Came out in '85. And

56:48Jawad MirI've seen it.

56:49Dan AttiasHave you? And, when it came out, and it was my first job, and I had, conflict with the producer about what kind of film it should be, 'cause I thought it was this great kids' adventure and it should be oriented more towards a k… you know, the younger crowd. And he was sure, "Well, it's a Stephen King film, and it's gotta be hardcore violent. It's got to appeal to that crowd." And so he made me reshoot several scenes and add more blood and horror and stuff like that. And the result was, I thought, I thought I loved how it worked with this little makeshift family of this boy in a wheelchair and his sister and his crazy, wonderful Uncle Red, Gary Busey, and this werewolf and all that. But there were all these scenes of two-dimensional characters getting ripped apart, and it's like, so tonally it was kind of mixed, and when it came out, it did all right, but it was kind of, it was kind of mixed, and I got offered some more horror films to direct, but I didn't wanna do a horror film.

57:52Dan AttiasI wanted to get into more hu… what I considered more human interest kind of material. And, 40 years later now, it's still got a life. It's become, like, a cult film in a lot of places, and it's like the tonal inconsistencies don't seem to bother anybody because I kind of actually gave it a little campy style and that stuff 'cause I wanted to keep it in the innocent world. But it is amazing to me. It feels so good, like, when I'll go do a job, 'cause that was the only feature I've ever done. I turned down a few other horror things. I became very choosy 'cause I wanted material more. And then I found TV, and that became something I really loved doing and getting into the golden age of television. I was getting to do all these great shows. But it's very gratifying. It's very fun when someone comes up to me, "Oh my God, I saw that show, and I watch it every Halloween," and you know. So it is... Y… who knew? I mean, it's like, if you'd asked me right after the film came out, I'd say, "Oh, yeah, I did that film," you know. "Don't, don't hate me," you know? And now, and now I feel like it's really, it's a, it was an important experience to some people, so that's really fun.

58:54Dan AttiasThat's really fun.

58:55Jawad MirYeah. No, I bet. You talked about you haven't gone back to directing features. Would you ever do it now?

59:01Dan AttiasWhat'd you say?

59:02Jawad MirWould you ever direct a feature now, like, a feature film?

59:04Dan AttiasIf I, if it was something I really wanted to do, but I, you know, it's like I'm, I'm not considered for that because that's not what I've done. So it's, it's, it ju… And I always kind of thought I would develop my own feature, and I just never have done it. And, the ones that were available to me didn't interest me enough. And so, and I got used to this rhythm of t… of not working two years on a project before anybody sees it, you know. I really like the short term of that. But I would love to do one if it were something I really wanted to do. But, the television life is one that I've, I've enjoyed too, so.

59:46Jawad MirYeah, I think you've, you know, the comfort level has sort of kicked in, and that…

59:51Dan AttiasWell, I really like telling a story and then moving on to another story.

59:55Jawad MirYeah.

59:55Dan AttiasYou know, because I do get very invested in each of the episodes, so I have a full experience in the, in the, you know, two to three months that I'm working on a project, yeah, from beginning to post.

1:00:08Jawad MirWhat's... Yeah, no, 100%.

1:00:10Dan AttiasYeah.

1:00:10Jawad MirAnd I think in feature, in feature films too, like, you know, living feature films for three, four years or animated film for five, six years, it just, it does take a toll on you…

1:00:20Dan AttiasYeah

1:00:20Jawad Mir... Depending on the story you're trying to tell.

1:00:22Dan AttiasYeah.

1:00:23Jawad MirWhat's next for you in terms of television? Are you working on any series right now?

1:00:27Dan AttiasI finished recently a, an episode of this HBO show, Dune: Prophecy, which is in the Dune world. They had… ... The first season aired, and, the second season just filmed, and I have an episode in that. I finished that in January of this year. And r… I've had to kind of take a hiatus 'cause my wife unfortunately has come down with a serious illness that hopefully she'll recover from, but I'm really kind of in a…

1:00:54Jawad MirOh.

1:00:54Dan AttiasYeah, I'm in a m… mode of really just guiding her through this and interfacing with the medical establishment and all that. So we're seeing how that plays out. But, yeah, I expect I'll be, you know, back to, looking for interesting episodes to do. But fortunately, I've been able to You know, g… g… get connected to really higher quality shows in most of my career. You know, that's becoming more difficult as, you know, you get, you know, you get... The more and more directors come up, and you're still doing it, so it's, there's, there's a constant battle, and I haven't developed shows, so we'll see. But, I love doing it, and I love, the experience of kind of creating something with other people and collaborating and,.. So I expect I'll, I'll be doing more of that.

1:01:46Jawad MirI hope your fi… wife recovers quickly.

1:01:48Dan AttiasThank you.

1:01:48Jawad MirAnd wish her the…

1:01:50Dan AttiasThank you very much

1:01:50Jawad Mir... One last question. One of the hottest names in television nowadays, or at least in the last four or five, is Taylor Sheridan, right?

1:01:56Dan AttiasYeah.

1:01:57Jawad MirWith TV series. Like…

1:01:58Dan AttiasYeah

1:01:58Jawad Mir... I haven't seen Yellowstone. I've seen 1923, 1883, The Madison. I mean…

1:02:03Dan AttiasYeah

1:02:03Jawad Mir... He's done so many other... Any desire of working on something that he has written or is that…

1:02:09Dan AttiasYou know, I actually was hired to do an episode of his first show

1:02:14Jawad MirYellowstone?

1:02:14Dan AttiasWhat's the one? Yeah, Yellowstone. I was hired to do episode, an episode of Yellowstone, I think about four or five years ago, and he,.. And I had several conversations with him on the phone, which were great, and then he called me, like, a week... I kept saying, you know, "I'd love to see the script when you get it," and he called me, like, three days before I was supposed to start saying, "Listen, I've just had a terrible time with the script. I tried to get someone else to write it. They didn't. They were... They... It's a page one rewrite. It won't be ready until three days before we shoot, and I'm just not even gonna ask you to do it. We're gonna pay you, and I'm gonna probably have to come in and direct it, so we'll figure something out." But, so I you know, so they had to pay me, but I didn't get to do it and then I, we just never connected again. They've approached me…

1:03:01Dan Attias... About, some o… some of the other shows, and that just hasn't worked out for scheduling, but I think he's brilliant and in his, you know, his sense of character and the world he creates is, are fascinating. I think he's, you know, extremely talented and does really great work.

1:03:19Jawad MirYeah, I... If you haven't seen 1923 with Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren, I do recommend that you do.

1:03:25Dan AttiasYeah.

1:03:25Jawad MirIt's eight episodes, I think. It's phenomenal.

1:03:28Dan AttiasYeah. I wanna see that one.

1:03:31Jawad MirAmazing. Well, thank you so much for your time, Dan. I wish, and pray for your wife's, you know…

1:03:36Dan AttiasThank you

1:03:36Jawad Mir... Quick recovery.

1:03:38Dan AttiasThank you.

1:03:38Jawad MirAnd, when is Dune second season episode coming out? Is it s… this fall sometime?

1:03:43Dan AttiasYeah, I did the fifth episode of the, season. There's eight episodes and, you know, it was supposed to come out, this fall, but then Dune 3, the movie…

1:03:55Jawad MirYeah

1:03:55Dan Attias... Is now coming, is now coming out at the end of the year, so they've asked that the TV show not step on that whole thing. So they said, "Can you hold it until after the first of the year?" So it won't be until, you know, ear… early 2020, 2027.

1:04:12Jawad MirNo worries. I'm looking forward to chatting with you about that. That would be…

1:04:14Dan AttiasGood

1:04:15Jawad Mir... Awesome to discuss it.

1:04:15Dan AttiasGood. All right.

1:04:17Jawad MirThank…

1:04:17Dan AttiasThanks

1:04:17Jawad Mir... Thank you so much. Take care, Dan.

1:04:19Dan AttiasBye-bye.