'Sterling Point', Costume Designer, Marissa Schwartz

0:00Jawad MirIf there was one thing that you learned about yourself or discovered about yourself, but through a character, something sort of coming back into your life and your own personal experiences

0:08Marissa SchwartzI really appreciate that question. Especially from Sterling Point, I'm finding, like, playfulness again. I have friends messaging me being like, "I see a lot of you in this character." And I was like, "You know, sometimes you infuse things from your own life."

0:25Jawad MirNot to say that every American thinks like that, but there is this perception that Canada is somewhere, like, you know, really far…

0:30Marissa SchwartzYeah

0:30Jawad Mir... Far away.

0:31Marissa SchwartzWhat was fun for me is, like, she's wearing this Dries Van Noten coat. It's, like, really luxe, it's satin, it's, like, super luxurious, and she's essentially using it as a blanket, and it just sort of, like, added for me to the comedy of this person who's, like, out of touch with where we are in our geography.

0:51Jawad MirHow did you get into costume designing/film industry?

0:54Marissa SchwartzI'm gonna be succinct, 'cause I can go on for so long. But essentially…

0:58Jawad MirI'm sure you can.

0:59Marissa SchwartzI was like, she, the girl can talk.

1:11Jawad MirI wanted to start off by asking you, now, what, when you first read the script, what costumes did you have in mind that you wanted to speak to the audience and to the world of, Sterling Point?

1:25Marissa SchwartzIt's a good question. I think more than a single costume that I was excited to execute, when I read the script, I saw the whole world. I could really envision the New York community and culture, contrasted with the Muskoka lifestyle. I've spent so much time up north. I used to go up every summer to Muskoka and/or northern Ontario. So…

1:53Marissa Schwartz... And then coming from the city of Toronto, like, I had such a shorthand, I think, with like the language of the visuals and how people aesthetically put themselves together in those spaces. And so I was just really excited to execute, costumes that hopefully expressed the nuance of the different upbringings people might have, and then, you know, what it might look like when we, when we sort of blend them in the same frame.

2:27Jawad MirSo one thing that I, again, this is not to do with costume, a lot of times you see movies which they make it look like that it's somewhere else in the world, but you can see kind of…

2:36Marissa SchwartzYeah

2:36Jawad Mir... Like, the Toronto skyline a distant…

2:39Marissa SchwartzSure

2:39Jawad Mir... Far, and that… that's always, like, really annoyed the hell out of me. But it was kinda good…

2:42Marissa SchwartzI get it

2:43Jawad Mir... To see because it is Toronto.

2:45Marissa SchwartzYes.

2:45Jawad MirAnd, you know, you're showing it as Toronto. Even when they showed the, Billy Bishop Airport…

2:50Marissa SchwartzYeah

2:50Jawad Mir... And they showed the Canadian revenue, Canada Revenue, sign. I've never seen that at that airport, so I'm like, "Okay, here we go. They probably just staged it, right?" But then when you, the camera flips, you see the Toronto skyline, which I thought was really nice to see. Again, it's just one of those things that you kinda feel home to, right?

3:04Marissa SchwartzTotally. It's so nice to be able to work on a show that is, like, set here and celebrating it and not trying to hide it. I've been really lucky to work on projects that feature Toronto, you know, as a character. And if you're from here, you know that there is such a beauty and excitement to our city. And then of course I've also worked on the shows where we're trying to hide it, and it always feels really sad because it's a special place. And yeah, I was just really thrilled, honestly. And very cool that it was an American show coming here to celebrate, you know, our landscape.

3:43Jawad MirI think the coolest thing for me was when she was on the flight in the business class, and…

3:48Marissa SchwartzAmbien

3:48Jawad Mir... You know, yeah, and

3:50Marissa SchwartzSo good

3:51Jawad Mir... "I need a pillow," and, like, oh, it's less than an hour flight. Canada…

3:54Marissa SchwartzYeah

3:54Jawad Mir... An hour away, right? That was…

3:55Marissa SchwartzYeah

3:55Jawad Mir... That was actually, not to say that every American thinks like that, but there is this perception that Canada is somewhere, like, you know, really far…

4:02Marissa SchwartzYeah

4:02Jawad Mir... Far away.

4:03Marissa SchwartzYeah, no. It was, I think something that, like, we all just thought was hysterical. And what was fun for me is, like, she's wearing this Dries Van Noten coat. It's, like, really luxe, it's satin, it's, like, super, luxurious, and she's essentially using it as a blanket, and it just sort of, like, added for me to the comedy of this person who's, like, out of touch with, you know, where we are in our geography.

4:34Jawad MirYeah. And going back to what you said about, you know, hiding Toronto… ... I find, so I'm in the industry as well, right? And I find that our industry in Canada, not just Toronto, is more or less all the time looking for Canadian stories…

4:52Jawad Mir... Which is great, but I think other than the film, which was what, Sweet Hereafter, that came out 20 years ago or so, by Atta Macgoan… ... Which was recognized at the Academy Award, you rarely see anything Canadian making it that far. For the reason of Hollywood doing what Hollywood does…

5:09Marissa SchwartzYes

5:09Jawad Mir... But I also think we try not to put our films out there in the world or try to get international story other than just Canadian content. Would you agree to that?

5:20Marissa SchwartzI have a lot of, like, feelings about Canadian content that is sort of almost, like, hard to put into words succinctly, but I'll try. I've been blessed to work on Canadian content, and I think what happens often is that it's not that it can't ha… it doesn't have the potential for global reach.

5:48Marissa SchwartzI think a lot of the times that there is a lot of fear of letting creatives, really go for it. Like, what I notice, because I did two American series back to back… ... Was there was a real freedom in trusting the department heads to... Have a vision, we hire you for your vision. You know, we're gonna collaborate and be in the conversation, but we trust you to tell the story. And there's maybe a little bit more hand-holding when it's on the Canadian side, and I think often it just kind of dilutes, it can dilute some of the work. And so it's like there's great potential, and there's incredible talent here, and sometimes I think the people that, you know, are, have the money to finance it and are maybe like, maybe they're in decisions that they don't need to be in. And that was just highlighted for me. You know, again, I hope I have a long way to go, and I love working... Like, I've, it has since actually been, a little dispelled for me because I've, I have since had experiences that are really exciting that are Canadian. But I just, what I, what was exciting on Sterling Point was I got to highlight our talent here without feeling like it was watered down.

7:13Jawad MirYeah, and I, and that's true actually not just in the film world. I find that Americans are more, they entertain, like even like from a business standpoint, right, investments.

7:24Marissa SchwartzYeah.

7:25Jawad MirThey entertainment risk-taking.

7:26Marissa SchwartzYeah, we're risk-averse here.

7:27Jawad MirThe entertain… the entertain... Yeah, we're, we're, we're trying to be timid, right? Like, we're like, okay…

7:30Marissa SchwartzTotally

7:30Jawad Mir... Just like try to play it safe and everything. And I also think like the whole idea, before I jump to my next question… ... The grants that we have in Canada…

7:38Marissa SchwartzYeah

7:39Jawad Mir... Right? And there are these certain requirements that it has to be X, Y, Z Canadian and in the story. Like, it just kinda prevents people from telling the story that they wanna tell, because it just kinda limits them in a box. These are the only type…

7:49Marissa SchwartzYeah

7:49Jawad Mir... Of story. So I think that needs to change. I tho… I don't know when that will, if that will, but in order for our cinema to go worldwide, which people come to Canada for TIFF, right? Like, everybody's like one of the major f… festivals in the world.

8:01Marissa SchwartzAbsolutely.

8:02Jawad MirSo hopefully that changes, but it's good to see that going back to, you know, Toronto, Canada being featured as Canada.

8:09Marissa SchwartzYeah, so great.

8:10Jawad MirYeah. You know, Annie arrives from New York, to this very different island, like Muskoka of course as we know it, and in this show as well. How did you trans… show her transition? Like, what was the process of showing her transition from that world of New York City? Toronto is very similar to New York but you're going to Muskoka, so it's a totally different sort of a feel and a vibe. Talk to me about that process.

8:33Marissa SchwartzYeah, so when, the way I kind of thought about it, and it was, it was something I collaborated, you know, with of course Megan, but especially Ella, on how we were gonna play it through, was I, the main thing for me, she shows up in this all-white outfit, this really luxurious coat, her Chanel accessories, and then you see her sort of like lugging her stuff through the woods. That visual was really compelling for me. And I think it was important that she didn't show up, you know, in heels and a dress. Like, it, she's a teenage girl, right? So it had to feel like she was a teenage girl, but I sort of went, you know, sh… her vacation spots are probably the Hamptons, so probably, you know, she's going to the Caribbean to these, you know, luxe islands. So it was sort of inspired by what the aesthetic of an outfit might be for those locales, and there is such a casualness to Muskoka. Even amongst, you know, the wealthy community that lives there, it's like people are in Birkenstocks and shorts and hoodies.

9:41Marissa SchwartzAnd so it was really important to find a way to tell our fish out of water story, and then get an opportunity to show her relaxing into that space. And so I think by, you know, episode one, episode two, she's really still very much in this New York wardrobe that she brought with her. And then slowly, you know, out of necessity for some reasons, that she falls out of a canoe and kinda loses a lot of her luggage, but also out of just function starts to pick up pieces that she finds in the cottage that belonged to her mom, so it's vintage from the '90s when her mom was a teen, pieces she's sharing with Ramona as like their bond starts to, you know, really solidify. All of those elements helped us infuse new components, and motifs to her wardrobe to take us to episode eight, where she's really fully relaxed and made the decision that she wants to stay there.

10:49Marissa SchwartzAnd I think there's such a good contrast. You know, the last look she's wearing is this like brown wool sweater with, you know, shorts that we see that are from her early, you know, her early look, and these ra… mucky rain boots. So it's sort of 10% New York, 90% Muskoka, all the way at the end, when at the beginning when she's starting to shift, she's still, you know, 90% New York, 10% Muskoka. Like we played a little bit with those ratios and, yeah. It was r… it was so fun. And it wasn't linear. Like, it was important that there was, you know, you felt her trying to figure it out and sliding, you know, in and out of pieces that made sense and some that didn't make sense. Like she's wearing this really sweet dress in episode, I mean, you're not there yet, but she's wearing a sweet dress in this episode where they go to summer camp.

11:45Marissa SchwartzAnd it, I always had this idea of like you, 'cause against Ramona and Oona, who look l… Like I went to summer camp. They, those girls, they look like they're going to summer camp, and Annie's in this dress and she's like, "It's a summer dress and I'm wearing it with these Blundstones, and it's, it's chill," but like it's not chill. So there's still little bits of her that, you know, we see throughout the whole season.

12:06Jawad MirAnd you mentioned the motif, and I, to me that was very clear. As soon as she starts discovering the relationship with a character... That it lives in Muskoka. I don't wanna reveal too much. You start seeing the wardrobe kind of gently twist with shifting, which you, which you mentioned, and I think that is such a great thing. You know, as an audience member, we don't know that.

12:28Jawad MirSubconsciously, con… subconsciously we kind of feel that, but it's such an important transition to a story because everything is sort of connected to the story, right? Like, from your set to costume to…

12:38Marissa SchwartzTotally

12:38Jawad Mir... Character movement and all that. So yeah, no, that was, that was, that I noticed very clearly. But again, it was very... Because I'm in the industry, I kind of picked it up…

12:46Marissa SchwartzSure

12:46Jawad Mir... But it was very subtle, right? So…

12:48Marissa SchwartzYeah, that…

12:48Jawad MirBut that was really cool

12:49Marissa Schwartz... Thanks for saying so. Like, we... It was in… hopefully subtle. Noticeable but subtle was…

12:55Jawad MirYeah. No…

12:55Marissa Schwartz... The goal

12:55Jawad Mir... 100%. 100%. I'm just gonna jump back to your career. How did you get into costume designing/film industry?

13:04Marissa SchwartzYeah. I'm gonna be succinct 'cause I can go on for so long, but essentially…

13:09Jawad MirI'm sure you can.

13:10Marissa SchwartzI was like, "She... The girl can talk." I grew up, really, like, interested in the arts. I did theater for a very long time, just recreationally, and, like… ... Fell in love with the craft of character and, you know, build… world-building. And I was also just obsessed with clothes and fashion, as, like so many young women are. And the point in which they collided was after I graduated from a fashion program, I came back to Toronto and was really trying to find my way. I started working in, like, print and advertising styling, and, I found makeup at that time. Like, I was kind of... I'd run over to the makeup counter and was very drawn to it, and so I decided to enroll in a makeup program, and it was a film-focused makeup program, which I don't think I really knew when I joined. I… and again, I... It was very much like responding to things that were coming to me. But as soon as I understood film as an industry, which, like, was not something on my radar, it all clicked and I realized the skill of costuming and character was something I was excited to explore.

14:29Marissa SchwartzAnd so, and so I just kinda started doing the short film thing and the commercial thing and then it snowballed. And, my then-boyfriend, now husband, I met when I was volunteering on a short film, and he was in film school. And he basically told me I was a costume designer. He's like, "I don't think it's makeup for you. I think you're a costume designer." He forced me to do a short film that he wrote and directed, and everything kind of snowballed from there.

15:03Jawad MirThat's awesome.

15:04Marissa SchwartzYeah.

15:04Jawad MirI'm sure there's a lot more sweat and blood b… behind that story.

15:07Marissa SchwartzTo… like, 15 years in…... It's like, there's definitely more funny stories I can infuse. Like, the first feature I got was via Facebook. But…

15:16Jawad MirNice

15:16Marissa Schwartz... But that... Those are the... That's the origin story.

15:21Jawad MirYou know, whether you're doing business, you know, whether you're... I'm just kind of using names.

15:28Marissa SchwartzYeah.

15:28Jawad MirPeople like Jeff Bezos or people like Steven Spielberg or Martin Scorsese, like, you know, they've all done their share load of work. Whether you like them or not or don't, it doesn't matter whether you know, u… understand what... Appreciate whatever they have in mind, whatever their point of view is, but everybody goes through that blood and sweat time, right?

15:44Marissa SchwartzYeah.

15:44Jawad MirLike you have. If there was... I know there's a lot of moments, tons of moments, but if there was one moment that you can think of where things kind of... Like, where you felt like chips were down and that, like…

15:58Jawad Mir... Everything was going against you, and then everything started ascending after descending.

16:03Marissa SchwartzYes.

16:05Jawad MirTell me about that.

16:06Marissa SchwartzOh, I have a, I have a really clear moment, and without getting into too much detail, I would say…

16:13Jawad MirYou can if you like to.

16:15Marissa SchwartzI know, but I... You know, the thing is, like, I started really young. I was... I didn't go to university, so I was out of school by 20 and… ... Working by 21. And I had to learn a lot about, standing up for myself, you know, advocating for myself…

16:38Marissa Schwartz... Especially because I was thrust into a department head position early and didn't, didn't have a lot of experience learning from other people and seeing it done in a way that I could emulate. And so at a certain point in my career, I was on a feature that was out of town, and I wasn't set up for success. I was really struggling. The logistics behind the scene were such that my job was really tricky, and I wasn't well. Like, anyone who works in film can tell you that if you don't have people in your corner, like from a production level, and they're not hearing your challenges, you still are responsible for executing your job, and that can mean, you know, working crazy hours and just pulling crazy things off.

17:50Marissa SchwartzAnd all to say, I, like, wasn't doing well, like, physically and emotionally and mentally. And my husband, my now husband, came to, like, really take care of me and make sure I was eating. And I don't think I knew at the time that it was... I was, like, having a full-blown anxiety attack. I have since been, like, diagnosed and medicated. Thank you, grateful. But I didn't understand what was happening, and… It was a real, wake-up call for me after that job wrapped, and I took quite a bit of time off to really, like interrogate what I wanted to do and if it was a worthwhile career for me to continue to pursue, because I was very concerned about being thrown into positions like that and not knowing how to get myself out of it. And, you know, I can't... I don't wanna say it's, like been smooth sailing since, but I certainly have a much better handle on how to not just stand up for myself, but my team.

18:59Marissa SchwartzAnd, like it's something that I take really seriously. I think I have learned how to protect myself and the people that work with me, because costumes is, like a really invisible department. I think that it can be very misunderstood, because if it's done well, it feels seamless, and people just show up on set and look great, and you're not hearing about anything happening be… behind the scenes. But people don't really understand what goes into getting a look head to toe ready for camera. There's so many small details. Things are dyed, they're broken down, they're altered, they're recreated, and it takes a village to make that happen. And so, I've, I've definitely been encouraged to be mindful of the people that hire me to, make sure they are going to hear me out and be supportive.

20:00Marissa SchwartzAnd, you know, I'm such a team player. Like, I'm a really collaborative designer. I take actors', input, like, just intensely into consideration. It's such an important relationship. And we're... I… It's like the job requires me to look out for a lot of people, which means I had to learn how to look out for myself first. And so, definitely there was a low moment, and I'm grateful to say that it was the low I needed to learn how to do it in a way that was, like healthier. So, there.

20:39Jawad MirYeah, you pretty much summed up what I was... The last sentence is that I j… You know, when you're going through something, you, me or anybody else, you know, as difficult... As much as you try to tell yourself it's for a reason, it's hard because you're going through it, right?

20:52Marissa SchwartzYeah.

20:52Jawad MirBut when you look back at things, you're like, "You know, even that, something like that terrible thing that happened to me, I am the person I am because of that one moment or, you know, part of that moment." So it's very important, I find, that, to go through those hurdles because…

21:06Marissa SchwartzYeah

21:06Jawad Mir... It shapes your character, right? It makes you stronger and it makes you realize what's right and what's wrong.

21:11Marissa SchwartzTotally.

21:13Jawad MirI read somewhere, and I'm not sure if this is accurate, that some of the costumes in the show were the, ac… some of the costumes that you used in the show were actors', their original wardrobe, and that you integrated that with the character. Is that accurate information?

21:28Marissa SchwartzYeah, to a degree. Like, very, l… in a very limited way, simply just because we needed to maintain the costumes and we... You know, I don't like to use actors' personal things unless it feels, like exceptionally relevant to the character. Ella had a really great pair of flats that she was, like really attached to, and even though we... Like, we genuinely just couldn't source the ones that we wanted to source out of... Like, they were out of season, out of stock, and so, we just kind of landed on, like, "Let's just use your own pair for this beat because it simply makes the most sense." and sweet Amelie who played Ramona, it's, like such a, like indie darling thing to do, but she, like hooked her personal keys onto, her pants in the first episode, and was like, "I really think she..." And I was like, "Yeah, I think it's great. Let's talk to props," blah. And I… it sort of went over my head and she just ended up on camera wearing, like her key, is that she actually needed to get into her fla… Like, we were like, "We can't lose these," and it was very funny.

22:36Marissa SchwartzAnd I, if I'm not mistaken, I think the props department, like recreated her personal keychain. So things like that definitely snuck in, and yeah. I'm not, like too precious in a way of it has to come from me. It's more like, "I don't want you to lose your personal stuff."

22:53Jawad MirYeah.

22:54Marissa SchwartzYeah.

22:55Jawad MirThat's cool. You know, again, people might think that if they, if somebody talks about Bridgerton versus… ... Sterling Point, there's a, you know, y… the first thing that comes to an audience member, oh, that, those costumes are really hard to do because they're period costumes.

23:10Jawad MirThe ones in Sterling Point may not be because they're contemporary, right?

23:13Marissa SchwartzTotally.

23:13Jawad MirBut was there... Which is, which is not true in my view… ... 'cause you still have to go through the character and try to figure out how that suits the character. Was there a particular character's wardrobe that was more difficult than the others throughout the show?

23:29Marissa SchwartzI wouldn't say difficult. I would just say, like the volume…

23:32Jawad MirChallenging

23:33Marissa Schwartz... I needed to produce for Annie was just… ... More than anybody else. And so, we just had a lot... And like the extra challenge is that she's the number one, so she's in so much of the show. So finding time for fittings was, like always tricky, but we still managed to spend an exceptional amount of time together, and I'm really grateful to Ella because she cared so much. Like, I always say the costumes are only as good as the time an actor is, like willing to give me to work it out, because as much as I have experience and a good eye and decent taste, like I still need the body that I'm dressing to make sure it can be fully dynamic and land. And so Ella, it was, like a logistics thing more than, a… More than anything else. Like, we got along…

24:26Marissa Schwartz... So well and had a very similar... We have similar taste and it was... It's funny because, like, I have friends messaging me being like, "I see a lot of you in this character." And I was like, "You know, sometimes, you infuse things from your own life, and you can't help it." But I also really related to the character. The other challenge m… again, more than a character, was... And like you said, it's funny because, like, you don't know this when you're watching it as an audience, but we had to create doubles of so much of it because any time they're boating or they're flying a plane or they're jumping in the water or swimming, we need to double all of that because there's always stunt doubles, whether it's just as a safety precaution or genuinely they go in and perform and are filmed. And so a lot of the challenge, because we used so much vintage and one-of-a-kind pieces, was like, "Okay, how do we recreate this and capture it?"

25:28Marissa SchwartzAnd it was really just the incredible skill of my team that allowed me the freedom to put the look that was the best one forward, and then they were able to come up with, like, a really brilliant, duplication of it.

25:45Jawad MirWorking with actors…

25:46Marissa SchwartzYes

25:46Jawad Mir... Costumes, as much as you want their input sometimes, you know… ... Certain…

25:54Marissa SchwartzYes

25:54Jawad Mir... Individuals, human beings, they have a little bit... They become a little bit, l… a little too difficult. Let's just put it that way, right?

26:00Marissa SchwartzSure.

26:00Jawad MirH… h… without naming names, has that ever happened, and has... How crazy has that driven you, if at all?

26:07Marissa SchwartzYes. Okay, well, I will speak about the show just to say this was a lightning-in-a-bottle experience…

26:14Jawad MirYeah

26:14Marissa Schwartz... Where, genuinely everybody was amazing.

26:18Jawad MirYeah.

26:18Marissa SchwartzThere was not one bad egg, and it... That's really rare. Usually, there's always one sort of person or cost… like, something can be tricky…

26:28Jawad MirYeah

26:28Marissa Schwartz... But this was just 10 out of 10 across the board.

26:31Jawad MirAwesome.

26:31Marissa SchwartzAs far as, like, challenges, you know, yeah, absolutely, and it's more rare than common, lucky for me. Like, I've been very lucky. I think what it is, the skill, again, that feels like you might not know it is an important one for costume designers, but most costume designers would tell you is there's, like, emotional labor, and, an ability to communicate and be empathetic that is really important, because oftentimes the job is to n… I wouldn't say, like, push, but massage your idea with what they're wanting, especially if it is coming from, you know, the showrunners and the EPs and it's integral to the vision of the show, is finding a way to get the actor on board because that's your job, you know?

27:36Marissa SchwartzIs to communicate the vision, make sure they're on the same page, and, a… and get it all the way there. And then the flip side is that the job is also to look out for the actor and make sure they can do their work because clothing holds so much energy and can really implicate, a performance if somebody doesn't feel like they can step into the shoes of the role. And so it's a balance. It's a dance, and sometimes it's easier than others, and I certainly have many stories that I look back on fondly and I can laugh about now, where I'm holding in tears and I'm putting my big girl pants on and I'm channeling my mom, where I've, I've had to, you know, manage some difficult, personalities. But like I said, it's actually more rare than common, and, you know, most of the people I've been blessed to work with have been really lovely, collaborative.

28:41Marissa SchwartzAnd, you know, it's... It takes two, you know? It's like my job is my job, but I can't do it without a person walking into, you know, my room and being willing to get some clothes on their body and get into character. So, you know, it's like we start the process, and then they sort of take the baton and bring it to set and, you know, it's a team effort.

29:09Jawad MirIt is, 100% it is. You're talking about, you know, working with team… ... On the set. Costume set, like production designing…

29:20Marissa SchwartzYeah

29:21Jawad Mir... Cinematography, right? It's like a three-way marriage, for the lack of a better word.

29:25Marissa SchwartzTotally.

29:27Jawad MirHow is that on this show collaborative, you know, working with the production designer, working with the DP?

29:33Marissa SchwartzYeah.

29:34Jawad MirThe... You can talk general experience or share a story about a scene or an episode. I would love to hear that.

29:39Marissa SchwartzSure. Well, so Zazu, our production designer, I've worked with several times. I think this was, like, our third collaboration, so I had a shorthand with her already. And it was such a, like, sigh of relief knowing she was designing it 'cause, she just has such incredible taste, and I knew we were in good hands. And then of course K2, our DP, you know, she did the first two and the last... Or she did four out of eight episodes, but really spearheaded the show and the look of the show, I had met early on, and she had worked... You know, she, her and Megan are longtime collaborators, so again, you know, it's this thing where I think oftentimes on shows you're very much hired individually, and you're hoping that…... It's a cohesive group. But…

30:33Marissa Schwartz... What I think Megan's strength is, like, one of many, is really making sure that the creatives are aligned aesthetically. And because of that, it made it really easy to converse and make sure we were on the same page. And so, you know, of course early on we would share references and ideas, and they'd come and see the fabrics and the textures. And then at the same time, you know, a TV show is, like, you know, running and gunning, and you move really fast. And so we're in our own little islands doing our own things. And something that was, like, really special and I think showed sort of the organic chemistry was that in episode two, Annie is wearing this, like, white and black Chanel dress. It's, like, really striking. And I got a photo from K2 on the day they were filming. I was prepping offsite, and she texted me a photo of Annie in the set and went, "Did you plan this?

31:38Marissa SchwartzDid you know about..." Like, and it's 'cause the house is this really great, sort of dual tone motif that very much, looks like parallel to what Annie's wearing, and it's r… it's just a very gorgeous image. And I kind of... I was taken aback. I was like, "Holy shit." Like, I knew it was a beautiful dress, but I did not know it was gonna look like that in the set. And so I think that's just, like, a nice example of the chemistry that existed on the show and that we were really lucky to find together.

32:11Jawad MirAmazing. If there was one thing that you learned about yourself or discovered about yourself, whether... Not necessarily but your work…

32:18Marissa SchwartzYeah

32:18Jawad Mir... And your skillset and your team, but through characters, something sort of coming back into your life and your own personal experiences. If that's something you're willing to share, I would love to hear…

32:28Marissa SchwartzSuch a good question

32:29Jawad Mir... What that could be.

32:31Marissa SchwartzYou know what? I actually... I've... That's... I really appreciate that question. And my answer is because I have ADHD and sometimes it takes me a while to, like, connect the dots, and it's not gonna be a polished answer.

32:48Jawad MirThat's okay.

32:48Marissa SchwartzI'm gonna try and get to the point, which is I think that especially from Sterling Point and my recent experiences, I'm finding, like, playfulness again, and I am finding imagination and, like, a sense of childlike wonder, if that... I think because I started young, there was a really long, like, series of years in my career where I was trying to come across more mature, more professional, like I knew what I was doing. And one of my favorite designers, who's a really good friend of mine and I look up to so much, always tells me, she's like, "I still don't know what I'm doing." And I think that is the idea, is, like, every job is different, and we're all just trying to figure it out together.

33:50Marissa SchwartzAnd so I think I've, like, learnt that it's okay to not know everything and, like, lean on the people around me. I do always say that it's so... Like, I wanna work with people on my team and otherwise that I think are better than me, like, who have better skills, who have better taste, who are... Like, it makes the work so strong. There's... It's like if some… if someone gives me an idea and it wins, like, thank you, that's awesome. I think it's just, like, a l… I've l… I've learnt that I can relax a little bit into myself and not feel like I have to present a certain way or, be a version of someone else's expectations, and that's been, like, really special.

34:39Jawad MirYeah.

34:39Marissa SchwartzIt's a good question.

34:41Jawad MirNo, thank you. I completely agree with you about working with people that are better than you. I advocate that every single day. It's like, you know, I don't care about the ego. It's gone. Like…

34:52Marissa SchwartzYeah

34:53Jawad Mir... I'm way past that time. But to kinda go a little bit more psychoanalysis here, sorry if I'm going…

34:58Marissa SchwartzYeah

34:58Jawad Mir... A little deeper.

34:59Marissa SchwartzNo, I love it.

35:00Jawad MirIt…

35:00Marissa SchwartzLet's go. I feel like I'm in therapy

35:01Jawad Mir... Is it possible that there's set of incidents or an incident where you have come to realize that you value other people's opinion more to put a certain image in front of them as opposed to be… being true to yourself? Because I think all of us…

35:19Marissa SchwartzYeah

35:19Jawad Mir... Kind of go through that. We're trying to subconsciously impress others, some consciously…

35:27Marissa SchwartzAbsolutely

35:27Jawad Mir... And not living our own life.

35:30Marissa SchwartzIt's funny because I had this conversation last night. It was, like, 11:00 PM leaving work with my ACD, who I'm working with, who's a dream, and she was actu… actually asking me a similar question about, like, how do you balance working with a team and not having... Or like, I don't remember the exact phrasing, but it was like when you work with people that are good friends and have creative input but you're the designer, what is the line of overstep? And it really made me think back because it's not positive and it's not a negative, it's just, like, a thing that's about me and nobody else, is that for many years I... One of my best friends, my oldest friends, is a brilliant costume designer and, we've worked together in many capacities. She's worked as my ACD, as my buyer.

36:30Marissa SchwartzWe've co-designed. And I just look up to her tremendously and think she has I just, she's just brilliant, and smart, and intelligent, and because we worked together for such a long sequence of time, and I was still in my imposter syndrome phase of being like, "I'm a costume designer." Like, I d… I couldn't say it with my full chest. I really attached my... Like, she was like a v… a gut check for me of if something was good. And then through natural circumstances of life, you know, I went on mat leave. She's moved to another country. Like, again, she's my kid's godmother. She's the best. My, like, my oldest childhood friend, so this is not about... I still think she's just the best ever. But I was sort of forced to go back into my career without her by my side, and it was a moment of reckoning to be like, "Am I good at this? Do I trust myself?"

37:29Marissa SchwartzAnd it had to happen because I needed to be able to stand on my own legs and know that I was doing this because it was the thing I was meant to do, and I had the strength in as much as she did as well. It was just... It was, it was an important moment for me, because it was almost like I was holding onto my mom's leg, you know? Like, afraid to finally be brought into kindergarten or whatever. And again, like, we've since worked together. Again, this is not a positive or negative on our working relationship. It is just a fact for me internally that I really needed, the push to just be able to trust myself to do it alone. And what's been very cool is that for many years I stuck with this small team of people that I n… trusted, I felt like I could perform. And since then, also by virtue of the jobs I've gotten, which has been different unions, non-union, I've been able to work with brand-new teams.

38:37Marissa SchwartzSometimes there's turnover, sometimes... On Sterling Point, I had to walk in never having designed in this union, and I didn't have one person I'd ever worked with before on my team. And again, this, I don't know what I did in a past life to deserve the experience, but I was just really lucky and handed, a brilliant team of people that trusted me and I built a great relationship with. And it showed me... It was, again, just this reminder of like, "No, you know what you're doing. You can do it. You, even if you don't know every answer, you can trust your experience to know what the right questions are." So yeah, again, love the psychoanalysis.

39:24Jawad MirI think it's also, you know, sometimes we have these expectations from others, right? Whether it's in film industry or…

39:31Marissa SchwartzYeah

39:31Jawad Mir... Not. We're just built that way. And when things start happening good with us, like you just said, like you had a team that came to you… ... That you didn't work with, you were very grateful. But maybe there's also the fact that, not that you weren't before, maybe you were sending an energy to them that they're responding to you, right?

39:51Marissa SchwartzI think so.

39:51Jawad MirIt's not just one way.

39:53Marissa SchwartzYeah. I like to think so. I, you know, not to toot my own horn, but, like, I have…

39:59Jawad MirYou should

40:00Marissa Schwartz... I ha… Thank you. I feel very proud of the relationships I have fostered, and I've had really lovely, thank you cards from people and just, like I've high turnover. People wanna work with me again, and I think that says a lot, so it's very nice.

40:25Jawad MirNo, that's awesome.

40:26Marissa SchwartzYeah.

40:26Jawad MirThat's really good. I, you know, it's, it's funny you mention that, the confidence thing 'cause I've directed three feature documentaries… ... In the last decade, and, somehow I got into that world. It was never the intention. It was more to be narrative, and now I'm getting into narrative. And I have a DP who's my friend, known him for almost 20 years, and I've worked with him so many times. We have a great working relationship, shorthand. The guy has never, ever praised me about one little thing, right? And I wrote a script, and I reluctantly gave it to him. I'm like, you know, "W… we wanna shoot this in Poland and Jordan." And he read it, and he, out of nowhere, he told me, "This is one of the best scripts I've ever read." I'm like, "Dude, are you saying that? Like, how the hell is that even possible that you are saying something, you know?" But that gave me such a boost…

41:13Marissa SchwartzYeah

41:13Jawad Mir... Because he has known me from my beginning of time, like, you know, from production.

41:18Marissa SchwartzRight.

41:18Jawad MirAnd to hear something like that from someone like that, going to what you were saying about your friend…

41:22Marissa SchwartzYeah

41:22Jawad Mir... It's a completely different meaning than someone I just met…

41:25Marissa SchwartzIt is

41:25Jawad Mir... Like, you know, two weeks ago.

41:27Marissa Schwartz100%. 100%.

41:30Jawad MirYeah.

41:30Marissa SchwartzIt changes how you operate.

41:34Jawad MirAnd a lot of us in our industry…

41:36Marissa SchwartzYeah

41:36Jawad Mir... You know, you just said not to toot my own horn. We are subject to not praise…

41:42Marissa SchwartzWe're not

41:42Jawad Mir... Put ourselves out there because honestly, the people that are doing really well, you know, from a…

41:48Marissa SchwartzYeah

41:48Jawad Mir... Different... The only difference between them and other people is that they're really putting themselves out there… ... Without having any sense of lack of shame or whatever, like, you know, always tooting their horn, and I think that's the only difference. I mean, you've gotta do that at some point.

42:03Marissa SchwartzI know. I'm, I'm working on it with…

42:05Jawad MirYeah. Same here

42:06Marissa Schwartz... The lovely Daria. I am really working on it, and I do feel like it's time to, you know, to show the world or whoever is interested, you know, what I can do.

42:23Jawad MirNo, it's amazing.

42:24Marissa SchwartzYeah.

42:24Jawad MirKeep doing it because I think more than half of it, what we do is how we perceive ourselves and talk about ourselves.

42:32Marissa SchwartzAbsolutely.

42:33Jawad MirYeah. Just to sort of wrap things up…

42:35Marissa SchwartzSure

42:35Jawad Mir... This has been a great conversation, by the way. Thank you for being so open and upfront. I appreciate that. What's next for you, if there is something that you're working on, unless it's sort of top secret?

42:47Marissa SchwartzYeah, I w… I can't say, officially, but I have something really exciting in the pipeline and, I would love to chat about it with you down the road when I'm able to.

42:59Jawad MirAwesome. Is it in pre-production?

43:01Marissa SchwartzI'm in production right now.

43:03Jawad MirOkay. So probably next year. Awesome. That's great.

43:06Marissa SchwartzYeah. A bit of a ways.

43:07Jawad MirWhat's one piece of advice that you would want to give to upcoming costume designers?

43:13Marissa SchwartzTo costume design.

43:14Jawad MirThat's, yeah, right.

43:15Marissa SchwartzThis is what I always say. I say, "Don't wait for someone to hand it to you. Work with your friends on their short films, volunteer. You're not gonna get a costume design job without having costume designed, and so, you know, it's chicken and the egg. But it, with respect and love to the unions, there isn't a trajectory or a, or a ladder to climb in that way, and you're gonna be chomping at that bit for many years, and you still might not get your chance, so just start."

43:47Jawad MirYeah. And I'll just kind of close by saying you were talking about earlier to tell yourself that you are a costume designer, right?

43:54Marissa SchwartzYeah.

43:54Jawad MirI was watching this interview. You may have seen this on your social feed. This was recently Tom Cruise promoting his upcoming film called The Digger, which is supposed to come out in October. I don't know if you have seen that trailer of that. Somebody asked him, "What's your advice to young filmmakers?" And his main thing was, "Don't say that you want to be a director. Say you are a director."

44:14Marissa SchwartzYes.

44:14Jawad MirAnd I think that's the first step in telling yourself, because once you've convinced yourself that you're somebody…

44:19Marissa SchwartzYeah

44:19Jawad Mir... Then you can convince the world.

44:21Marissa SchwartzAbsolutely.

44:22Jawad MirAmazing.

44:22Marissa SchwartzCouldn't agree more.

44:24Jawad MirThank you so much, Marissa, for your time. I truly appreciate it.

44:27Marissa SchwartzThank you. Thank you.

44:29Jawad MirAnd, keep up the great work, and keep yourself in this way.

44:31Marissa SchwartzOh, I appreciate it. You have such thoughtful questions. It was really a pleasure.

44:35Jawad MirPleasure was all mine. Thank you so much.