'Jurassic Park', Art Director, John Bell

0:06Jawad MirI have been aware of your work, but recently when I pulled up IMDb and to see your portfolio, like working with Ron Howard, George Lucas, Robert Zemeckis, Spielberg, Gene Roddenberry, you know, some of the biggest names, in the career that you have had, that's, that's incredible.

0:26John BellYeah. I feel very fortunate. I got in at just the right time.

0:32Jawad MirWell, speaking of that, why don't you tell us how you got in, into art directing and, y… y… you know, I think i… into visual effects, too, from at least some of the credits that showed on IMDb.

0:44John BellOkay.

0:44Jawad MirJust talking about that.

0:47John BellWell, I kind of,.. My career started, I was, I started as a car designer and I worked at General Motors back in Detroit. I went to Art Center College and that's where I was studying to be a car designer.

1:04Jawad MirSure

1:04John Bell... And so out of school, I got a job at General Motors and went to Detroit. Worked at Detroit for roughly almost two years, and then, I kinda got a little frustrated living back there. So a friend of mine had called me from California. He was working at Atari Games in Sunnyvale and

1:27Jawad MirRight

1:27John Bell... So he said, "Why don't you come out for an interview? You know, I, at least you'll get a nice trip to California." So I went out and, they gave me a job, so I started at Atari Games. And then…

1:42Jawad MirCool

1:43John Bell... I was at Atari Games for about three years, and the company itself was kinda starting to go downhill, but I really liked the Bay Area. So I l… I knew that, I knew of Industrial Light & Magic. I had the books from Joe Johnston and Nilo Rodis with the beautiful illustrations, and I knew that they were somewhere in the Bay Area.

2:05Jawad MirYeah.

2:05John BellSo I looked in the phone book and found their phone number, and I, and I got their address, and I sent, I sent up a resume, which wasn't much at the time, and, a set of slide sheets, you know, like 20 slides. That's how far back this goes. It's 1985. So I sent those up, and I didn't hear anything for a long time. And I thought, "Well, I can't stay at Atari. What am I gonna do? Am I gonna become a car designer again?" So I started pursuing that, and about eight months into it, I got a call from Lucasfilm, and Nilo wanted me to come up and meet him. So I went up and met Nilo, and he liked, he liked me, he liked the work that I'd shown in the slides, and he said, "Well, I can offer you a job, but I can only offer you one month versus time. And, I need you to start tomorrow."

3:08John BellAnd I went, "Oh, my gosh. I'm still working at Atari. What a… what am I gonna do?" So I went into Atari and I said, "I'm sorry. I'm, this is my last day today. I'm, I'm going to Lucasfilm to work on a project." And that was Howard the Duck.

3:24Jawad MirRight. George Lucas' project. Yes.

3:26John BellYeah. So I get up there, and I had never done anything in film before. I mean, the things that I had shown Nilo, I had one, like, five-panel storyboard, and he liked that for some reason. And so he gives me the script to Howard the Duck and he goes, "Okay, can you start storyboarding it?" I look at him and I'm like, "What am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing here." So, he didn't have... He had other, you know, obligations, and so I was kinda left on my own to try to figure this out. So weeks go by and I'd go home with bad headaches and tense, and I just couldn't get it together. And so after a month, he goes, "John, I really like you. I know you can do this work, but for some reason you can't do it, so I have to let you go." So I got let go after one month. So now I thought, "Oh, now what am I gonna do?" I found a part-time job at a friend from Stanford was starting a toy company, and he asked me to come down and help him design some toys for kids.

4:32Jawad MirRight.

4:32John BellSo about three months into that... I'm sorry for the long story. Three months into that…

4:36Jawad MirNo, this is good

4:37John Bell... Three months into that, Nilo calls back. He goes, "John, I have more time to meet with you and work with you, and I want you to come back." So I went back and I started working on Star Trek IV, the one with the whales. They have to save the whales and go back in time.

4:56Jawad MirYeah.

4:56John BellSo I started there, and that's what got me into ILM on a more permanent basis. So from Star Trek IV, I then went on to work on Willow, and then I went to work on, let's see, Tucker.

5:12Jawad MirBatteries Not Included.

5:13John BellBatteries Not Included, a little bit on that.

5:16Jawad MirYeah.

5:16John BellAnd then, Tucker, and then Cocoon: The Return. That was in 1988.

5:23Jawad MirYeah.

5:23John BellBut before, right after I finished working on Willow, which was 1986, Patty Blough, one of the producers, came into the art department and said, "We don't have a script yet, but Bob Z wants to do a sequel to Back to the Future. All we know is we're going 30 years in the future. There's hoverboards. Can you come up with some ideas on what that's all about?" So I created a bunch of drawings for that in 1986, and then, and then the project kinda disappeared, and Bob went on to work on Who Framed Roger Rabbit. And so in 1988, it started to circle back up again in the art department, so I started doing some more drawings and… And then Rick Carter came up, the production designer, came up…

6:09Jawad MirYeah

6:09John Bell... From LA with, let's see, Ken Ralston was in the room, Steve Starkey, a few other people, and myself. And Rick really liked the work that I was doing from 1986, and he said, "Can we borrow John for just a couple weeks to come down to LA and work on Back to the Future with us?" And, ILM agreed, and the three weeks turned into four or five months. And so I got to design the hoverboards and costumes. I worked with Joanna Johnston and Hill Valley 2015. That was my area, was to work on 2015 and v… help visualize the future. So Rick and I get along great. And, after Back to the Future II and III were done, I went back to ILM, worked on Rocketeer. And then that summer…

7:03Jawad MirAnother great movie.

7:04John BellThat was a fun movie. Yeah, that was really a fun one to work on.

7:07Jawad MirGreat movie. Yeah.

7:08John BellYeah. Had a nice tight story. Well, I loved the comic book. When the graphic novel came out, Dave Stevens graphic novel, I just loved it.

7:15Jawad MirYeah.

7:15John BellI loved that whole era. So…

7:19Jawad MirGo on

7:19John Bell... This, so now I'm getting into Jurassic Park. So the summer of '91, I finish up working on Rocketeer. I'm dating Joanna Johnston, the costume designer from Back to the Future. She and I had been dating for a while, and she's up in Montana working on, Far and Away. So I go up to visit…

7:41Jawad MirFar and Away. Yeah

7:41John Bell... So I go up to visit her in Montana, and I don't know how he found me, but I got a phone call from Rick Carter, 'cause I didn't tell anybody really I was going up there. Rick Carter calls me and, says, "Hey, we're doing this film on, about the book Jurassic Park. Read the book, and I want you to come down and work on the project." And so I was like, I s… I didn't even know, "What's Jurassic Park? What is that?" And so he goes, "Well, you gotta read the book and then come on down. When can you start?" And this was in July, and I said, "I was just taking some time off. Can I just have a little bit of time off?" He says, "Okay. When can you start?" So I said, "How about August?" He goes, "okay. All right, August. That sounds fine." So that's what got me into Jurassic Park summer 1999, or pardon me, 1991.

8:34Jawad Mir'91.

8:36John BellAnd then…

8:37Jawad MirYou know… I'm sorry. Go on. I just have so many things to talk about, but…... I'd like you to finish. I'm just so excited.

8:46John BellSo, I get down to the art department, and Rick, he is, he and Nilo have been s… such great friends and so generous in their belief in me and what I can possibly bring to a project. And so Rick, like the first day I come in, he goes, "We've already done a lot of work on the film, but I want you to look through what we've done, read the script, and then just give me whatever take you have on this. You know, whatever it is. I don't care what it is. It's vehicles, it's props, it's storyboard sequence. Whatever you wanna do, just come up with stuff, and then we'll, you know, see where it goes." So that's what he gave me. He gave me that broad lane to drive in, and I just started taking stabs at all different areas. I mean, there was so much to be inspired by the script that

9:42John Bell... I was just, you know, I was just doing whatever came to, came to mind. And he liked what I was doing, and then I got to introduce Spielberg, and it was great. It was one of the greatest experiences of my career, for sure.

10:01Jawad MirI bet. I mean, you're telling me all these names of the films and then when you said hoverboard, I'm like, "You designed the hoverboard?" Like, that's the thought process in my head, right? And I mean, it's such an iconic thing. And then, you know, just hearing about... I, it's funny you mentioned Joanna Johnston. She still works with Spielberg. We actually reached out to her agent yesterday.

10:24John BellOh, yeah?

10:24Jawad MirAnd I think, yeah, I think, she's, she's really occupied with some projects and stuff, so that didn't work out.

10:31John BellS… super talented woman, hardworking woman. She was great. She's, I still keep in ti… contact with her.

10:39Jawad MirYeah. And again, I can't get over the fact that just looking at your resume, right, like I'm just, like, looking at IMDb right now, like all the way leading up to, you know, now. Like pretty much 90% of the films that are in there are some of my favorite films.

11:01John BellWow.

11:01Jawad MirLike, those are movies that I grew up with, like AI, Antz, obviously the names that you mentioned, Contact. I was just talking to Don Burgess, the DP with Robert Zemeckis…

11:11John BellYeah

11:12Jawad Mir... On, What Lies Beneath, Contact, and Cast Away. And it is just so amazing that the names that you mentioned obviously brought back a lot of memories but just kind of reminded me how great films used to be…

11:28Jawad Mir... You know, in the '80s and then the '90s. Like that was, those two decades, '70s was too for sure, but '80s and '90s were like, it was like an era of cinema just taking a giant leap but in a positive direction. And…

11:44John BellYeah

11:44Jawad Mir... You know, Rocketeer, like it's, it's like technically a superhero movie, but it's not. It's such a good film. Like, it has, it has elements of Indiana Jones in it, you know. Obviously Joe Johnston…

11:56John BellYeah

11:56Jawad Mir... Worked on Raiders and, a big Spielberg, collaborator. But, you know, working on Jurassic Park, when you started, let's just break it down with the first film. ... Jurassic Park, what was your… Responsibility as an art director. Like, if you can run down the process, for people who are listening, even for me. I mean, I am a bit familiar with it because I'm in the industry, but at the same time, just how that process takes place, and then kind of talk about Jurassic Park at the same time.

12:32John BellYeah, I think it's... I mean, it, that was really my first time as being art director. When I was at ILM, I was an effects art director. So…

12:42Jawad MirRight

12:42John Bell... You know, you're just focused on a very tight area. But on Jurassic, I don't know if it's the same process with each production designer. All I can say is working with Rick, like I was saying earlier, he just gave me such a wide lane to explore. You know, "Do you wanna do storyboards? Take a look at the storyboards we have now. Look at the script. Do you have other ideas? Do you wanna bring other ideas into it? Look at the vehicles, you know, what are they gonna be driving around in the park in?" So, you know, I'd sketch a... As bi… as a car designer, it's like, "Okay, I got an opportunity here to design cars for na… and it's for film, so." it was just the process was really wide open. I can't say there's a real structure to it.

13:33Jawad MirOkay. Okay.

13:33John BellIt was just, it was just like he said, you know, whatever comes to mind when you read it, start visualizing it. And that's the fun part about being a storyboard artist is that you're really the first person or people. David Lowery was another storyboard artist on the film. Tom Cranham was one. Marty Klein. But, you know, we're the first people who really get to visualize what the script is.

14:04Jawad MirYeah.

14:05John BellAnd so then everybody can react to those visuals. Oh, would they really have a wide shot here? Would they really have a close-up here? Would they really catch the angle here? You know, it's all those, all those things that just you're inspired by the words, and the words create these images on paper. And…

14:24Jawad MirSure. And how much involved were you, not necessarily conceptualizing, but to a certain degree being responsible for the looks of the dinosaur, if anything, like in the art direction stage? Or was that something that was not your department that you were working on?

14:42John BellYeah. I wasn't invol… I was involved in the stuff that got destroyed by the dinosaurs.

14:48Jawad MirOkay, like what?

14:49John BellWell, like the visitor center, like the cars.

14:53Jawad MirOkay.

14:53John BellProps, people

14:56Jawad MirOkay.

14:57John BellBut the dinosaurs themselves, I mean, that was all Crash McCreery and Stan Winston's crew.

15:03Jawad MirRight. So…

15:04John BellWhich was phenomenal

15:07Jawad Mir... So let's talk about what you did, right? Like, honestly, like the way... It's so funny, I, somehow I stumbled upon Facebook with this. There are actually people who actually make a point of doing this, that people actually go to location sites of films where they were shot. And I saw a picture of, you know where the welcome center was, the visitor center, the big giant building?

15:28Jawad MirSomebody actually went there and took a picture of that pl… spot, which is like completely flat land now. To compare it to. I mean, I'm, I'm not like, you know, that's good for you that you have time and resources to do that. That's awesome.

15:43John BellYeah.

15:43Jawad MirBut it just tells you the amount of fandom there is. So the, you know, w… when you were designing the visitor center, what were some of the things that, if there was any struggle in trying to come up with it, or that obviously it goes to Spielberg, or he will come back with feedback. Any kind of story that you can share in that department, in that realm?

16:04John BellYeah. For the visitor center, Jim Teegarden, he was a co-art director on the film. He and Rick were really laying out that space pretty thoroughly by the time I got on board. I think they started…

16:19Jawad MirOkay

16:20John Bell... On this film in 1990. So for me, again, Rick said, "This is what we have, but what do you wanna do?" And so I was creating. I wanted to create a really dramatic entrance to the visitor center, so I had drawings with big statues of dinosaurs out in front of it. And I had…

16:42Jawad MirYeah

16:42John Bell... Very elaborate things going on. But, you know, time and budget, schedule, that all plays into what actually…

16:51Jawad MirRight

16:51John Bell... Gets put into the final piece, right? So, what ended up, what my contribution was really for that entrance was putting the relief of the dinosaur skeleton above the door. And then the door itself, which had this kind of egg motif with these radiating lines. And Rick really liked that because it was like a rebirth symbol for him. And, it got played again in different areas within the visitor center.

17:23Jawad MirYeah.

17:23John BellMore subtly. But that was a main motif that he real… that really resonated with him. And it just, that's how that got into the film. Aside from that, the rotunda area ... There was some, there was some exploration that was done in that section, too, before I got there. But Rick has a, had a very religious thought in mind. He was thinking it was the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.

17:59Jawad MirOkay. Right.

17:59John Bell'Cause he had visited that, and he wanted it to... He wanted the rotunda to kind of resonate with that si… same type of thought, is that this is a very s… sacred area that we've entered into, and these dinosaurs are coming to life, coming up out of that, out of that rock. So, he said, "You know, this is where the budget kind of thing ate into it." They were gonna do it. It was, the whole rotunda was gonna be completely finished at one point. But the budget, made Rick and Steven think of a different way to deal with this, saying that, "Well, maybe this isn't complete yet. You know, maybe there's still areas of the park that are still under construction, and this could be one of them." And, so we presented ideas of what that would look like with tarps and scaffolding and different, elements in there. And when we showed that to Steven, he liked the opportunity there.

19:04John BellHe said, "Oh, okay, I can see this. Yeah, the kids can then, they can come down. They'll come down through the ceiling, and they'll get on this scaffolding. And then they'll go over to here, and then they'll go over here, and then the raptors will come in, and then they're gonna get trapped here." And, you know, his mind is just like a projector the whole time. You know, he's thinking moment by moment, beat by beat what's gonna happen. And then the T-Rex is gonna come in at the last second. It was all very exciting. So that was a moment where the budget really de… helped determine a whole different layer to the ending of that film.

19:43Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Because it wasn't in the original, if I'm not mistaken, at least from one of the inter… some of the interviews I've seen of Spielberg. He said that the plan wasn't to have T-Rex in the end, and then he realized that if he doesn't bring the T-Rex back... Because up until that point, T-Rex came obviously for the m… the giant introduction shot, like, you know, that whole scene with Sam Neill…

20:07John BellYeah

20:07Jawad Mir... And the kids. And then in the middle when they're, when he's eating the dilophos… it's a dil… dilophosaurus? Dinosaur. So he wanted to bring that in the end, and that was kind of like on the spur of the moment thing that he... And I think it was... You know, the, what you design in that film, the visitor center, like, that is such an iconic place. You know? Y… y… the last shot of T-Rex with the banner going down and the…

20:34John BellYeah

20:34Jawad Mir... T-Rex roaring and you see the entire space. So it must feel really proud to be, you know, you must have pride to be part of that something gigantic.

20:43John BellOh.

20:43Jawad MirI mean, Jurassic Park is such a phen… I mean, even to this day it has way better effects than any other films that are being made today.

20:51John BellYeah. It was, again, a tremendous experience. And then, you know, for the s… the, for the things that I do, I'm really working with, you know, paper. This is pre-Photoshop, so.

21:01Jawad MirYeah.

21:01John BellI'm working with paper, magic markers, and pencil. And so to see that go from a piece of paper on your desk, sitting in the theater, and you're seeing it on the big screen with an audience responding to it all, I'm going, "Wow, this is, this is crazy." You know?

21:21Jawad MirYeah, it's crazy.

21:22John BellIt's, it's a real, it's really, it's... You know, I kind of, you kinda get goosebumps from it. Because 30 years later we're talking about it, and to this day I'm getting emails from people who are showing me their... They wanna paint the Ford Explorer, you know, to look like Jurassic Park, or their Jeep, or they ask me questions about the film. And it's just, it's incredible. You know, I, there's so much luck and timing. You know, if Ri… if I hadn't met Rick, if I hadn't met Neillo, I don't know what I would've been doing as a career, you know? They've, they've taken me to a whole different space that I couldn't…

22:04Jawad MirWell…

22:05John Bell... Ever imagine

22:06Jawad Mir... You can, I mean, we can have an art discussion about this. Luck kind of comes, but it can go away if you don't work hard, right? I mean, you can't just put everything on luck…

22:17John BellNo

22:17Jawad Mir... I feel. Because everybody gets i… well, I shouldn't say everybody. A lot of people get opportunities. Sometimes we don't grasp them because we're afraid to grasp them. But sometimes we grab them, but we don't put in our time and effort…

22:29John BellYeah

22:29Jawad Mir... So that, you know, we can continue. So I mean, it's, it's not an easy thing. And I'm not just saying this. Like, I talk about this, to a, you know, my kids, to other people. Even I tell myself that it's, it's okay. I think getting a break is an somewhat easier thing as opposed to maintaining it. Like, being consistent and staying there.

22:53John BellYeah.

22:53Jawad Mir'Cause there's a lot of people that come and go, right? Like, whether they're actors, directors, effects, visual artists. But just to…

23:00John BellYeah

23:01Jawad Mir... Stay there at that level is not an easy thing. So I don't think you should call it all on luck. I mean, obviously it has to do with your working hard as well.

23:09John BellYeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. You work hard at it, but there's a lot of timing involved, you know?

23:14Jawad MirTrue. True.

23:15John BellYou know?

23:16Jawad MirI agree with the timing, yeah. Do you believe in fate? Was it meant to be?

23:21John BellWow. I would have never imag… you know, if I could have gone back in time and said, "You know what? In 30 years I'm gonna be, I'm gonna have worked on this and this and this in the film industry," I would've said, "There's no way."

23:34Jawad MirThat's crazy. Yeah.

23:35John Bell'Cause when I started ArtCenter I was going... Before I started ArtCenter, my dad got me introduced to ArtCenter. He was on a…

23:43Jawad MirYeah

23:43John Bell... He was on a business trip from New Jersey to California.

23:47Jawad MirRight.

23:47John BellAnd he met some people, and the, and the people that he spoke to said, "Oh, your kid likes to des… likes to draw cars? Well, there's a school over here that teaches people how to design cars." So that's how I got into ArtCenter. I thought I was just gonna draw race cars my whole life, live in New Jersey. But…

24:07Jawad MirBut, yeah. But I think, I believe, I b… yes, luck is there. Timing is there. Working hard is there. But it's also about... I know this is gonna sound very cliche and, like, film-like, but I believe in destiny.

24:21Jawad MirYou know, I'll give you my example. I mean, I'm, I'm nowhere near at your caliber, what you were doing. When I was in high school… When I was in grade 11, I used to take subway from home to s… school. It was like a literally like a 40-minute subway ride. And you know how in subway they have movie posters and advertisements?

24:41John BellYeah.

24:41Jawad MirAnd so I would wait for the subway, and I saw this gigantic logo, and it said June 11th, 1993. And it was Jurassic, and it was Jurassic Park. And I had no idea what it was. And then I saw that again at a bookstore when I went to see my dentist, and I'm like, "What the hell is Jurassic Park?" And it just kinda kept building this curiosity. And when the film came out, I never got to go see it in movie theater, but the day it came out, I remember holding a newspaper, which I still have. I said, "This is what I wanna do."

25:13Jawad MirAnd I waited 16 months for the VHS to come out, and I saw every Spielberg movie produced, directed, and I was like completely into it. So I mean, if had, if I had not seen that logo, you know, who knows where I am

25:29John BellYeah. Yeah, I know. It's amazing. What put you in that subway at that time to see that poster, right?

25:35Jawad MirIt's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's ti… And I think it's also, you know, you're, if you're meant to do something, I think you get signals from the universe, and it's about grasping it or not grasping it. That's, that's what I think, but I'm, I'm not…

25:48John BellYeah, y… well, I keep, I tell my kids, too. I said, "You know what? You just have to keep putting yourself out there. If you're interested in something, put yourself out there, 'cause the worst that's gonna happen is they're gonna say no. And then you go to somebody else. You just keep pushing, and you're finding different avenues and different outlets to pursue what you're really interested in. You know, at some point, it's gonna land for you."

26:14Jawad MirAnd if you keep at it does.

26:16John BellAnd just possibilities.

26:16Jawad MirIt does.

26:17John BellYeah.

26:17Jawad MirIt does. What, are your kids into what you're doing, or they're in a completely different field?

26:22John BellNo, they have, they're not taking this film path. No. My daughter wants to be a speech pathologist, work with children.

26:31Jawad MirThat's good.

26:31John BellAnd then my son just started working for Boeing up in Seattle area as a design engineer.

26:39Jawad MirNice.

26:39John BellBut they both do, they both do artwork very well. They just, it's more like a hobby. Like, eh, you know, I'll do that.

26:45Jawad MirGenetics.

26:47John BellYeah. But they, but they really enjoy doing it.

26:50Jawad MirYeah, and that's the key part, right? Like enjoying what you're doing. Because like you said, being a car designer and then working at Atari, you weren't really finding that joy and happiness. So…

27:02John BellYeah

27:02Jawad Mir... You know, it's amazing if you can get joy and happiness and get good salary at the same time.

27:08John BellYeah.

27:08Jawad MirAnd that's when you hit a jackpot. Going back…

27:10John BellI work in video games. Sorry, I was just gonna say, I work in video games now, but I don't play any video games.

27:16Jawad MirOkay. Okay. Well, there you go.

27:18John BellBut…

27:18Jawad MirThat, it's a cycle, right? Loop all the way back.

27:21John BellYeah. Yeah, the process is the same. You know, I'm given a task to design a what's this building look like? What's this car? What's this character? What's this environment look like? Create what it looks like. But…

27:33Jawad MirRight

27:33John Bell... As far as playing, I'd rather be outside doing things.

27:37Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. No, I'm sure. And in terms of Jurassic Park, or just in general, like when you are, when you are, when you're given a task, and I kinda think you talked about it, but if you can g… if you remember any specific example, it doesn't have to be Jurassic Park, any film. When you're given the task to come up with something, right, like you have to visualize, that's like the first step in what people see on the giant screen, as you said.

28:03Jawad MirWas there any time where you had kinda like a writer's block or like an artist block where you just felt like this isn't... Like whatever you drew, either for yourself it wasn't worth it, like you were not happy with it, or whoever the director was, they were not, they probably said that, "I'm not, this is not what I want, and you have to go back and start all over again."

28:30John BellThinking. I can't say I've had any type of writer's block, per se. Usually when I'm... You know, sometimes, I know there are people, other people, concept artists and artists that I know who get intimidated by blank sheet of paper.

28:52John BellBut for me, I look at it, and I just start, I just start coming up with something. And sometimes I'll, sometimes, you know, I'll go, "Well, that's not really what I'm looking for," and so I'll kinda start over a little bit. But usually, I just kinda go with the first idea. And…

29:15Jawad MirYour gut feeling

29:16John Bell... I'll get it, yeah. Yeah, my gut tells me, "At least finish this off. Show it to them. Maybe they like it. Maybe they won't. If they don't like it, then yeah, I'll, I'll start from scratch again." But knock on wood, I mean, I was fortunate on both Back to the Future and Jurassic Park was that a lot of the first ideas that were coming out were ones that made it to the final film.

29:45Jawad MirThat's amazing

29:46John Bell... I think if any, there was any struggles I had w… was I worked with, I worked with a production designer on Starship Trooper, and he was a pleasant enough guy, but for some reason, he and I, you know, there's so much chemistry that has to go on…

30:06Jawad MirYeah

30:06John Bell... On these films because the projects are so long. The chemistry just wasn't really there for me to... I got to design a lot of stuff for the film, but it was more of a struggle to get those things pushed through, where storyboarding it was a little easier to just bang out the, you know, the sequences. And again, you kind of... When I was storyboarding, it was like Having a bit of a projector in my head, and I'd read the words and I'd start drawing up, "Okay, we need a wide shot here. Okay, I wanna do a close-up here. I wanna do another close-up followed by..." You know, and really kind of work through the whole sequence. And I won't even stop until I get through the whole sequence, and then I'll look back through it again, and I'll, you know, I might pick out a couple things that I feel don't work. Oh, maybe I should've done this shot here differently or that shot there differently.

31:01Jawad MirYeah.

31:02John BellBut

31:04Jawad MirAnd how long does it take you to maybe, like, do one sketch on a piece of paper? Whatever that is, whether it's a visitor center or anything else.

31:12John BellWell, depends on what's involved. Like, a visitor center is gonna take longer than the Ford Explorer…

31:17Jawad MirYeah

31:17John Bell... Because there's more elements to balance and to figure out. But, let's say a visitor center sketch, that's probably done in a day, less than a day.

31:27Jawad MirOkay.

31:27John BellYou know, full color, pencil, everything, markers. So that's the thing is too, is the, you know, you have to work quick because there's so much that has to get done, so you have to be fast at what you're doing, what you're creating. You know, there's not a lot of time. It's different designing for the real world than it is to design for the film world.

31:49Jawad MirYeah.

31:50John BellBecause the film, the camera's usually moving, or the shot that you've spent days on creating is gonna be on film for four seconds or five seconds. So the things you have to design have to read very quickly, you know. Otherwise, it's... You can't…

32:09Jawad MirYeah

32:09John Bell... In the real world, you get to go, "Oh yeah, look at the f… look at the radius on this, and look at the finish on that," and... You know, I think, I think that's a trap that a lot of, a lot of designers for film kind of fall into with Photoshop. They get really seduced by everything that you can do with it. And I'll pick out the Transformers movies. I look at those robots, those characters, and I can't tell heads from toes. I mean, there's no focal point for the design of the, of the character. I'm just seeing shiny metal bits all over the place. It's like, you know, it's, it's too busy, I think.

32:54Jawad MirYeah.

32:54John BellI think there's, there's room for simplicity, and that's why I like the new Blade Runner that came out. Great shots, open screen, one, two, three elements per shot. Basically it's like, okay, I can really digest the design of it, the overall spirit of it. You know, I really enjoyed that film because of the way that was photographed.

33:21Jawad MirYeah. Well, Roger Deakins I think, did the cinematography for that.

33:26John BellAh. Working with him on Rango, oh, what a genius. Oh, my gosh. So, what a great guy. What a lovely man.

33:34Jawad MirAnd he's still at it. You know, he's still going.

33:36John BellI know.

33:37Jawad MirIt's amazing.

33:39John BellYeah. Gore Verbinski was another director who was great to work for.

33:43Jawad MirWhich, oh, the Rango. He did Rango, right?

33:45John BellRango.

33:45Jawad MirYeah.

33:47John BellYeah. Yeah. He had, such a clear vision for what he wanted to do, and all those reference points were ones that I've always admired. So it was a great, synchronicity we had, I thought.

34:00Jawad MirYeah. And I think going back to what you were saying about, you know, from an art director, visual art director, point of view, like, you know, you have, we have something in a frame, and then it's not busy, right? And I think as same, in the same way from a directing standpoint, when you are not... I'm a really big fan of old way of filmmaking. When I say old, I even mean the '80s and the '90s, you know, where you have, like, a wide shot or a medium shot where you see so much happening, right, in a frame, as opposed to cutting back and forth or super close-up. Sometimes you need close-ups if you're trying to drive the emotion.

34:39Jawad MirBut in the old ways, I mean, Zemeckis has done this very well, Francis Ford Coppola, Spielberg. You know, whenever you're trying to draw into an emotion, you just slowly dolly in, right, like, on that character.

34:51John BellYeah.

34:51Jawad MirBut most of the time, it's just I feel that I'm there, at least for me, when I see a wider frame, 'cause there's depth in it. There's so much going on in this side of the frame. Not that it's busy, it's just done such aesthetically that you just feel like you're there.

35:07John BellYeah.

35:07Jawad MirAnd I think it's the same thing what you're saying in terms of art direction. It just, it does sometime become too jam-packed. And I never looked at a Transformers that way. I've, I've only liked the first one. I didn't really like anything beyond that.

35:21Jawad MirBut you're right. In terms of robots, especially, like, Optimus Prime, there was just so much, so much metal there. And other, and all the action sequences, there's so much going on that you can't figure out who's who and what's what.

35:35John BellYeah. If you want to, if you wanna connect with the characters on the screen, you have to have some type of focal point…

35:41Jawad MirYeah

35:41John Bell... To allow that to happen.

35:43Jawad MirYeah.

35:44John BellAnd for them, it just…

35:44Jawad MirJim Henson was really good at that.

35:46John BellWho?

35:47Jawad MirJim Henson. Like…

35:48John BellOh, yeah

35:48Jawad Mir... If you look at Labyrinth, you know. I don't know if you remember that movie.

35:54John BellOh, yeah. Oh, yeah

35:56Jawad Mir... It was just, there was just, I mean, there was so much detail, but at the same time, there was just focal points of each of the characters that were there.

36:05John BellExactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

36:08Jawad MirAnd now, and now that you have done Jurassic Park, right, the film comes out. It just blows up expectations. Well, I shouldn't say it blows up expectations, but I think it just goes in that realm where, you know, no film has gone before.

36:23John BellYeah.

36:24Jawad MirAnd then how soon were you, because '93, Jurassic Park came out. '97, Lost World came out, and I know Spielberg got busy with, DreamWorks in between, in '93, '94. How soon did you know there was gonna be a sequel, and how soon did you start working on it?

36:44John BellI started, let's see, I started working on that in, I think it was early, it was either late '94 or early '95. And, I can't remember if Spielberg's office called me or if Rick called me. All I remember is going down and seeing Steven again, and we were looking at the Mercedes, and he wanted me to... The Mercedes SUV, which was brand new.

37:13Jawad MirYeah, at the time.

37:13John BellIt was just being released.

37:15Jawad MirYeah.

37:16John BellSo he wanted me to get involved with, designing, you know, retrofitting and creating the look for the, for the all, for the different, factions in that film. The Mercedes, the hunters. What were they called? The hunters and the gatherers, I think is what…

37:33Jawad MirYeah

37:34John Bell... We called them, at least in the art department. So designing what the hunters' vehicles would look like and their outfits, and what the, gatherers' outfits and vehicles would look like. That big, long bus that they had, RV. And then the Jeeps, and then the Mercedes. So, you know, it didn't have, I didn't have the lo… the length of being on the project like on the first one.

38:02Jawad MirSure.

38:02John BellBut, it was still rewarding. Any opportunity I had to work with Steven again was great. Yeah.

38:10Jawad MirWell, the RV sequence, I mean, for me, in that entire film, that is the best, scene, if you wanna call it, or sequence in the film, is just the, what goes on in it, like, and the way... O… obviously, it has a lot to do with the way the RV is designed internally. Like, you know, you have to know where the T-rex is gonna come from and look inside, and then when it goes over the cliff…

38:36John BellYeah

38:36Jawad Mir... All that sort of transpires. So you were an integral part of designing that RV?

38:42John BellYeah. The RV and, yeah, all the vehicles in the film, yeah.

38:47Jawad MirSo, what…

38:47John BellBut

38:48Jawad MirSorry, go on.

38:49John BellNo, I was gonna say, again, my time was limited. I was, I was really living, I wasn't living in LA working on that one. I was working out of my house in San Francisco. So my involvement for the f… the final fit and finish of everything wasn't up to me. You know, I was giving initial inspirations for what the exterior and interior…

39:12Jawad MirSure

39:12John Bell... Would look like, and then it was handed over to, the art department down there to…

39:18Jawad MirSure

39:18John Bell... Finish it all off, create it.

39:21Jawad MirBut aside, whether it's this film or any other film, does the director, you know, come up to you and say, "Okay, this..." Let's just take Jurassic W… World, for example. Not Jurassic World, sorry. The Lost World, for example.

39:36Jawad MirSteven would come to you and he, obviously, based on the script, this is what the scene is, and this is what's gonna happen. And are you more so taking Spielberg's thought process into consideration more than maybe what's in the script, or is it the same? Or you're just kinda going in with your own blank interpretation of what it could like, depending on the scene?

40:01John BellOh, it's kind of a mix of all those elements, you know. Because the working relationship with myself and Rick, and Steven was, I thought it was a really solid relationship that we had. And so I was given a lot of latitude for coming up with what that would look like. And so it was really feeding off what was gonna happen in the script, and then it was more about the script and m… my personal tastes were and thoughts would be, on that particular vehicle.

40:42John BellIt's, you know, I always try to put myself into the situation when I'm reading a script. What would I do if such and such happened here and there? Like, on the first Jurassic Park, there was a, there was an early storyboard before I got involved where, Sam Neill and Jeff Goldblum are in the one vehicle, and the kids are in the other vehicle, and the T-rex comes out, right? And goes after them. And in the original storyboards, Sam Neill's character and Jeff Goldblum, they just sit there and kinda watch it all take place. I'm thinking, "If it were me, and there was two kids in danger over there, I'd find something, anything, to distract the T-rex away from the kids and get them away."

41:32Jawad MirRight.

41:32John BellSo I thought, "Well, maybe in the car, maybe in the back of the car, there'd, they'd have some type of f… flare equipment or flashlights or something back there." So I thought, "Well, maybe, you know, one of them would go back there, grab a flare, get out of the car, and kinda distract the T-rex and pull them away from the, from the kids." So that's, that's, like, a b… that was a contribution that I made for that scene, to try to…

42:00Jawad MirThat's a huge contribution because that's such a, such an iconic scene. You know, when he says, "Ian, freeze," and then, you know, and the whole action unfolds right after that.

42:11John BellYeah.

42:11Jawad MirThat's really cool to know. I mean, that, it, that, you know, that's what I find. Again, I'm kind of repeating myself. Like, hoverboard and, you know, the visitor centrance, entrance, and then that scene that you just explained.

42:24Jawad MirThose are just some iconic things. And, you know, i… if you ever go on social media, I mean, I discovered this recently because I have been, you know, doing some research and stuff, and there are so many groups… on Goonies, Back to the Future, you know, Spielberg and the amount of c… Close Encounters and the amount of collection these people have.

42:48John BellYeah.

42:49Jawad MirIt's just mind bo… you know, mind-boggling.

42:51John BellIt is.

42:52Jawad MirThat they literally have this gigantic... And then a… another one, on Instagram actually, I'll probably send you this, I've discovered four or five guys who live in Europe, and they literally are in competition with each other in these really realistic-looking, you know, gigantic T-Rex or different scenes from the film, even the one that you're talking about.

43:13John BellYeah.

43:13Jawad MirAnd I'm like, "Well, you, that must have cost like 30, 40, $50,000."

43:17John BellOh my gosh. That's incredible.

43:20Jawad MirIt's, it's crazy. I just discovered this, three months ago. There's, there's people who have giant collections now. I mean, it's just insane. It…

43:29John BellWell, the…

43:29Jawad Mir... It will worth something down the road, but...

43:32John BellWell, I remember at the end of Jurassic Park, you know, the whole interior of the visitor center and the lab, and they had all those carved reliefs everywhere, and I'm thinking, "Oh, they're just gonna throw all this stuff into the dumpster. It's all gonna get trashed."

43:46Jawad MirYeah.

43:46John BellYou know, none of it was saved. Before Prop Store was reselling everything. So I called, I called a couple people and said, "Do you have room for... There's a big column here with a giant dinosaur relief carved in it. It's fantastic. Do you want it?" "Oh, I don't know where I'm gonna put this. I don't know." And I didn't have any space. I'm living in an apartment in San Francisco, so I didn't, I didn't think to keep it for myself. You know, I'd go through the steps of finding storage space and getting it…

44:16Jawad MirYeah

44:16John Bell... Shipped from LA to the Bay Area. So it's just a shame that so much of this incredible artwork that people put in weeks and weeks and weeks of effort into it just got thrown into dumpsters and trashed.

44:32Jawad MirThat is sad.

44:32John BellAnd that's just one film. Think of all the other films too.

44:36Jawad MirI thought they always preserved that. Like, nowadays there are so many documentaries…

44:41John BellNowadays

44:41Jawad Mir... That come out.

44:42John BellNowadays, yeah. But, you know, back in the early '90s and late '80s, that wasn't the case. At least that wasn't my exper… I didn't know of anybody that was saving that stuff. Even small props.

44:56Jawad MirThat's interesting. Sorry?

44:58John BellSmall props would get saved, you know, like a handheld sword or a…

45:01Jawad MirYeah

45:01John Bell... Lightsaber handle or things like that.

45:06Jawad MirThat's, that's so sad because, I mean, you know, you look at the films now, like, you know, for example, you know, the books that are coming out, I don't know if you've had a chance to read them, by James Mottram, The Ultimate Visual History Guide to Jurassic Park. I don't know if you had a chance to come across that.

45:22John BellOh, yeah.

45:24Jawad MirYeah, that's a great book. And then to, and then going it, through that, and I was like, you know, skimming through it and reading through it, and the amount of stories, obviously, you know, stories are something that are always preserved. You can't throw them in the garbage. But even all the stuff, you're right, because in that book there is less visuals as opposed to the Jurassic World trilogy book. I mean, there's just immense amount of stuff in there.

45:49John BellYeah.

45:49Jawad MirFull out sketches.

45:51John BellYeah.

45:51Jawad MirAnd that's really sad that they did that, but, hopefully they're able to preserve this. I mean, now we're living in the digital age. We need it m… way more than, ever before, just to have that…

46:01John BellYeah

46:01Jawad Mir... Kind of tangible, you know, artifact…

46:04John BellExactly

46:04Jawad Mir... In our hands.

46:05John BellYeah. When I was at ILM back in the '80s, it was always an adventure and so exciting to walk into the model shop, where you're seeing the Enterprise, you know, and it's nine feet long…

46:16Jawad MirNine feet

46:16John Bell... And it's got all the lights and wires and everything inside of it, that they're pulling it apart and refixtion… fixing things, or the batteries not included, robots being built by Greg Jein. And oh my gosh, it was just fantastic to go. And all, everybody in there was so excited about the work that they were doing and, the passion they put into it, and they were always so friendly. "Oh, let me show you what I'm doing over here, John." You know, they'd take you over to this desk and that desk, and oh, it was fantastic. But, you know, now you'd walk through there, and you'd be looking at a monitor here, and you look at a monitor there. "Oh, yeah, look at that."

46:56Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's not the same anymore.

46:58John BellNot quite. Not quite the same. Yeah.

47:01Jawad MirYeah. But, you know, it's, that's just the way the world, the world…

47:05John BellYeah

47:05Jawad Mir... We live in now.

47:07John BellAnd now you've got AI coming on board.

47:10Jawad MirYeah.

47:10John BellWhere is that gonna where is that gonna take us?

47:13Jawad MirYou know, it's so fascinating to me that when Spielberg made AI, the one that you were part of course, that world where robots are discriminated, and, you know, a robot trying to be a real boy. Obviously, James Cameron painted a similar pic… his picture was a lot scarier than what we are thinking that, where it's, it's gonna head. But I also think what Spielberg did in AI, or Stanley Kubrick, I think we're, like, probably 50, 60 years away from that. I…

47:46John BellYeah

47:46Jawad Mir... The way technology is l… taking a giant leap. I mean, think about it. 27 years ago, more or less, so let's say 30 years ago, internet came out, right? And to public. But the amount of leap it has made in the last 10, 15 years, especially with social media, is insane. Like, it's…

48:09John BellYeah

48:09Jawad Mir... Just crazy. Like, I, you know, my dad, he's in his 80s, and whenever we, I show him something, like a piano on a phone or FaceTime, and he's just... I mean, he knows this, but he's just still so amazed by it.

48:23John BellExactly.

48:24Jawad MirBecause obviously, you know, he grew up in the ages of, you know, when you send a letter, it goes like three months to get to overseas and whatnot. But yeah, you're right. AI is gonna... It's scary. It really is. And we're just…

48:38John BellYeah

48:38Jawad Mir... Really depending on it. It's, it's really scary.

48:42John BellYeah. The images, the resolution of the images has increased dramatically just in the past eight months. It's phenomenal. I'm waiting to see what happens when AI gets introduced to the music industry and somebody types in a prompt that is, "Beyonce, Hank Williams, Nine Inch Nails, James Brown. Give me a song." What's that gonna sound like? It's gonna be crazy.

49:17Jawad MirIt is. I mean, you can take right now, there are, there are sites available where you can take someone's visual and the sample of their audio and make something out of it. I actually saw an interview on Instagram of Bill Gates, and it was about this whole COVID thing and, you know…

49:39Jawad Mir... I'm not gonna, I don't like talking about politics, but let's just assume on the podcast because it was about like how, what Bill Gates is doing is this and it shouldn't be this. And that video was literally an interview of Bill Gates where he's being questioned and put on the edge. And for about 10 seconds in, I'm like, "Okay, well, this is interesting." But it got so scary because you would never hear those kind of questions on mainstream media.

50:06John BellOh.

50:06Jawad MirIt was all fake.

50:08John BellOh.

50:08Jawad MirBut it was so real. It was genuinely real. That was so crazy. And I'm imagining now, you know, tomorrow if I don't like somebody or somebody doesn't like me, and we have ac… you know, you can just put someone's stuff online and make them canceled.

50:22John BellYeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a problem because it's going to create so much paranoia and insecurity in people. Like, did I read what I just read? Was that real, or was that created?

50:36Jawad MirYeah.

50:36John BellDid I just see that? Was that for real, or was that created?

50:41Jawad MirYou know, I…

50:41John BellDid I just hear something? And…

50:43Jawad MirI, in terms of what you do, I will give you an example. If you go on Facebook, somebody did this, and it just blew my mind. There's a Goonies page, like, you know, fans get together and they talk about their collectible and stuff.

50:58John BellYeah.

50:58Jawad MirSomebody told, I don't know which AI software it was, to create images of the Goonies characters, and it was like 3D renderings of all the characters in an animation format with the floating ships in the sky, and it w… it was so gorgeous. Like, I can't, I'm not gonna lie, it looked beautiful. But at the same time, I'm like, "There goes all the art directors and the concept artists' job." Like, somebody, someone just pulled this off in a matter of minutes.

51:29John BellOh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We've had discussions with that. I work for, like, video game company in town up here, and we've had the discussions about AI and what it's gonna do to upset the people who are studying to become concept artists and art directors. And I'm wondering at art schools, how are they gonna handle that if, you know, are students actually gonna go to these art schools anymore, or will they just go to Midjourney and type in a couple prompts and come up with some pretty, you know, some pretty amazing artwork for nothing?

52:06Jawad MirYeah.

52:06John BellFor 30 bucks a month.

52:09Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. It's, it's insane.

52:11John BellIt's a, it's a big can of worms, but I'm glad I'm not starting my career at this point.

52:16Jawad MirYeah. Well, I was thinking, I… I'm sure you've heard of Fiverr and Upwork, right? Is it Upwork?

52:21John BellNo. Fiverr and Upwork?

52:23Jawad MirFiverr is, like, basically a platform where you can make... Anybody can make a job posting, like, "I need social media animation. I need a logo design. I need a post." Like, anything you imagine, right? So there's people who have their own profile. These people, majority of them live in other countries, not in Western world, where the conversion of dollar is a lot more better than, you know, someone working here. I have seen people cutting a pizza commercial in a very professional manner, 25 bucks.

52:56John BellWow.

52:57Jawad MirAnd I'm like, how do you compete with that?

53:01John BellYeah.

53:02Jawad MirHow the hell do you compete with 25 bucks? That's not, that's, like, not even hourly wage, you know? Some…

53:09John BellThat's nuts. And what's the…

53:11Jawad MirSo…

53:11John Bell... The website called? Fiverr?

53:13Jawad MirFiverr, F-I-V-E-R-R. And then there's another one called Upwork.

53:19John BellUpwork.

53:20Jawad MirYeah.

53:20John BellI'll look those up.

53:22Jawad MirYeah. I mean, it can be beneficial to a certain extent, but i… imagine now they're gonna compete with AI. Now, that's gonna be crazier.

53:32John BellYeah.

53:32Jawad MirYou know, 20... Think about it that way. Like, it's just getting s… you know, narrower and narrower, and it's, it's insane. But at the same time, the flip side to that, the way I look at it, then the value of what we do is gonna go much higher…

53:46Jawad Mir... I think. You know, in terms of, like, well, there's not many storyboard artists, or there are not so many writers around, or let's just…

53:53John BellYeah

53:54Jawad Mir... Jack up our price. You know what I mean? If that makes any sense.

53:57John BellYeah. Yeah. And how did you get into film business, getting involved with films and entertainment?

54:07Jawad MirWell, sure. So part of the story was, I mean, it's, I'm gonna try to summarize it as much as possible because it's kind of quite long. After Jurassic Park came out, you know, I told you that I saw all the Spielberg films and everything.

54:21John BellYeah.

54:21Jawad MirAnd I really wanted to go to, I really wanted to go to film school, but at the time, you know, you have to have a portfolio, and there was no such thing as camcorders. At least there were, but they were not very accessible.

54:32John BellYeah.

54:32Jawad MirSo, I end… ended up doing IT, which was, like, you know, the beginning of the, internet world at the time, and I took this course on HTML, how to make websites. And, I just for the kicks made a Spielberg page because I was in that zone of, you know, loving films and everything.

54:51John BellYeah.

54:51Jawad MirAnd I failed the course. And, but it was a requirement in my first year of university, so I took it again and I failed it again. And by that time, my site had become a little bit bigger than I intended, so I showed it to my professor and he passed me. Like, after I begged him, like, you know, "Just look at the practical work that I've done."

55:10Jawad MirAnd then that site became so big, that's where it turned into a DreamWorks fan site. Like, I had over 100,000 hits per month, and, this is way pre-social media age. And during that time, I was doing my IT degree, I was making small corporate videos, sometimes this event, that event, and that just sort of led into, more work and more stuff. And then in 2013, I started my first feature documentary, which came out in 2017, and then I've done three feature doc… I've directed three feature documentaries I've produced for.

55:48John BellInteresting.

55:49Jawad MirAnd now I'm slowly getting into writing and because my main objective always has been narrative, like, you know, where I can control the story or…

55:59John BellYeah

55:59Jawad Mir... Stuff like Zemeckis has made, stuff that Spielberg has made, like, the stuff that we all grew up with.

56:04John BellRight.

56:05Jawad MirSo that has been my journey, and still at it, and, you know… ... I'm, trying to just keep taking it one day at a time.

56:14John BellSo the documentaries, so they all vol… revolve around the film industry and entertainment, or are they different subjects?

56:20Jawad MirNo. Completely different. ... One of them is a social political documentary about a small village. It's called Only 78. It's about an interracial gay coup… American gay couple that moves to Nova Scotia, eastern part of Canada.

56:37Jawad MirAnd, they discover that the village is under threat from seawall breaking apart, and each level of Canadian government doesn't take ownership, so they carry out an advocacy in trying to save the community, and is it worth saving with 78 people who are, like, above 60 years of age?

56:54John BellWow.

56:55Jawad MirAnd then the last two are extremely more... They're very international, but they're more human rights based.

57:02John Bellhuh.

57:02Jawad MirOne of them is called Citizen of Moria. It's about an Afghan filmmaker who comes under threat from Taliban ... And he fled Afghanistan without saying goodbye to his pregnant wife and his kids, and he ends up in Europe's worst refugee camp. And he starts documenting there, and then I kind of join him, and we co-directed it. And then simultaneously, I was directing a film called In Search of My Sister…

57:30Jawad Mir... Which is about an, American Uyghur activist whose sister has been taken by the Chinese Communist Party.

57:36John BellOoh.

57:36Jawad MirAnd we shot that in 13 countries. Her traveling the world trying to create awareness and find clues to her whereabouts. So they both, we simultaneously, we released them. They've been through festival screenings and stuff, just, earlier this year, or last year we released them. And, now just developing some more stuff and working on that.

57:56John BellWow. Intense…

57:57Jawad MirYeah

57:57John Bell... Intense subject matter.

57:59Jawad MirIntense.

57:59John BellWow.

57:59Jawad MirIn… very intense, and I…

58:02John BellYeah

58:02Jawad Mir... It, and going through post-production during COVID, it wasn't fun.

58:07John BellYeah.

58:09Jawad MirBut yeah. Are you based in San Francisco?

58:13John BellNo, I'm up in Central Oregon in a small town called Bend.

58:17Jawad MirI know Bend. I love Oregon.

58:19John BellReally?

58:20Jawad MirLove Oregon. Portland is one of my favorite cities in the world, if anything.

58:25John BellAh.

58:25Jawad MirYeah.

58:25John BellI used to work at Nike and lived in downtown Portland back in the '90s, and, it's changed quite a bit. I don't know when the last time you were there, but it's changed it a lot.

58:37Jawad MirI was there in 2002 and then 2007. I haven't been there since then.

58:43John BellWow. You won't recognize the Pearl. You remember the Pearl District?

58:46Jawad MirYep.

58:47John BellYou won't recognize it now. It's all…

58:49Jawad MirI'm sure

58:50John Bell... Skyscrapers, con… you know, million-dollar condos. It's high roller area in there now. Lot of galleries, lot of shops. And then sadly, two blocks away, homeless camps everywhere.

59:07Jawad MirYeah.

59:07John BellYou know? It's really…

59:08Jawad MirThat's a big thing. That's a big thing in Portland, or in Oregon.

59:12John BellOh, gosh. Yeah.

59:14Jawad MirBut is Bend... I, my wife and I drove from San Francisco to Portland back in twen… 2007. Would Bend have come in the way? Like, is it on the route?

59:25John BellNo.

59:25Jawad MirOr more up east?

59:26John BellNo, 'cause you would've gone up Route 5 all the way, right? Up to…

59:30Jawad MirYeah

59:30John Bell... From San Francisco to Portland. So we're three hours southeast of Portland.

59:40Jawad MirSoutheast, okay.

59:40John BellSo if you were to look at the state, I mean, we're almost dead center in the middle of it.

59:46Jawad MirGot it.

59:46John BellIt's pretty. There's, you know, some amazing mountains just 40 minutes away.

59:52Jawad MirYeah.

59:52John BellSnow-capped, and it's really, it's a great place for being outdoors.

59:57Jawad MirI think, have you seen Harry and the Hendersons?

1:00:01John BellYeah. Oh, that's right. That took place in Oregon, didn't it?

1:00:05Jawad MirYeah. The, I actually spoke to the director, William Dear, couple of months back.

1:00:10John Bellhuh.

1:00:10Jawad MirAnd they filmed it mostly in, I know they filmed it in Oregon, but I would like to say they filmed most of it in Bend or the surrounding parts of Bend.

1:00:19John BellWow. I'll have to look into that. That's fascinating.

1:00:22Jawad MirThat's a great film. That's a great film. I enjoyed that one.

1:00:24John BellOh my gosh, yeah. I haven't seen, I haven't seen that one in a long time.

1:00:26Jawad MirYou haven't seen it?

1:00:27John BellNo, I've seen it, but it's been ages since I've seen that one.

1:00:31Jawad MirYou know, I saw it again, like, three months ago, and I was like, "Holy crap, this is so timeless." It's so amazing. It's such an amazing film. It's such an amazing film.

1:00:40John BellDude, was John Lithgow, was he Harry?

1:00:45Jawad MirNo, that was, John Lithgow and Melinda Dillon, who was in Close Encounters… They were the leading actors. Harry was played by, Kevin Peter Hall, who…

1:00:56John BellOkay

1:00:57Jawad Mir... Who also did Predator at, in the same year.

1:01:00John BellOh my gosh. Wow.

1:01:02Jawad MirYeah. Two complete opposite…

1:01:05John BellYeah

1:01:05Jawad Mir... Roles. And I think he passed away a few years after that.

1:01:09John BellOh

1:01:09Jawad Mir... I don't know how, but I mean, those are some iconic roles to play in the same year, too.

1:01:14John BellAbsolutely. Oh my gosh. Those are big ones.

1:01:18Jawad MirWell, great. What are you working on now? Any projects that you can talk about?

1:01:23John BellAgain, I'm working for a video game studio here in town.

1:01:26Jawad MirOkay

1:01:26John Bell... All I, all I can say, it's like an action adventure title.

1:01:31Jawad MirOkay

1:01:32John Bell... We're still at the, we're still at the beginning of it, so it's gonna be a while before it's released. But, the studio's done some good work. The previous game that they released was called, a game called Days Gone, and, it's like a survivalist type game.

1:01:50Jawad MirOkay

1:01:50John Bell... But it's, it's been, you know, critically acclaimed and, it's, it's been out for, what, almost three years now. And, it just keeps getting more and more attention, so it's a good one.

1:02:06Jawad MirWhat is it called again?

1:02:07John BellDays Gone.

1:02:09Jawad MirDays Gone. I wonder my, if my son knows about it. I used to be into games, but not anymore. Just…

1:02:16John BellYeah. And my son plays a lot of different games. He's all over the place, so he doesn't just stick with one. He's, he'll go for the indie titles and then he'll go for the big titles and he goes all over.

1:02:28Jawad MirProbably Roblox. Well, Roblox is more for kids. But

1:02:32John BellHe did Minecraft

1:02:33Jawad Mir... Minecraft. Yeah, that's…

1:02:35John BellYeah

1:02:35Jawad Mir... Huge. That's huge.

1:02:36John BellYeah.

1:02:37Jawad MirAny films down the horizon that you would want to go back there? Or you're happy where you are, or...?

1:02:43John BellYeah. There's... Well, you know, I can't say I'm a fan of the, I'll call them the leotard movies. The superhero ones. I just, I can't…

1:02:54Jawad MirThank you

1:02:54John Bell... I can't get into those. I just cannot.

1:02:57Jawad MirI can't either.

1:02:59John BellI just can't. So I c… you know, and the, that's the majority of what comes out nowadays, so no.

1:03:09Jawad MirI do think…

1:03:10John BellI'd like to, I'd like to get on a film project again, but I... Oh, you know what I did? I worked on, the latest, it hasn't come out yet. It's the new Spider-Verse movie. I got to do some design work for that. So…

1:03:23Jawad MirOh

1:03:23John Bell... I'm looking forward to seeing what that looks like. 'Cause the first Spider-Verse movie was fantastic.

1:03:29Jawad MirYou know, I don't watch superhero films. I, if I, if you wanna call Christopher Nolan trilogy superhero films, which I don't, that's the only one that I've seen, and the first original Spider-Man that came up by Sam Raimi.

1:03:42John BellYes.

1:03:43Jawad MirBut when my kids wanted to go see Spider-Verse, I'm like, "I don't care for superhero movies." Right? Like, I didn't wanna go. And when I went, I was quite shocked because…

1:03:53John BellYeah

1:03:53Jawad Mir... It's just, it's not the same thing as everything else, right?

1:03:57John BellRight.

1:03:59Jawad MirAnd it's…

1:03:59John BellIt made all the other animated films look old, like instantly.

1:04:03Jawad MirIt did. And I don't know if you've seen the new Puss in Boots film, Last Wish.

1:04:08John BellI saw the trailers for it.

1:04:10Jawad MirYeah. So their style of the animation in there is quite borrowed from Spider-Verse. Like…

1:04:17John BellYeah

1:04:17Jawad Mir... It has the painting kind of a feel. Like you can feel the background, like as if it's like a texture that you're touching.

1:04:24John BellYeah.

1:04:24Jawad MirAnd that's, so I think that's the new way. There's gonna be a trend now because people, I think, are burned out by superhero movies, even like, you know, as great Pixar films as are. That's, people need change. I think people are…

1:04:38John BellYeah

1:04:38Jawad Mir... Hungry for change. And it's that, and that's what made '90s so great, I think because people were looking for something new, and that's when the independent cinema kicked in, like Pulp Fiction, Reservoir Dogs.

1:04:50John BellYeah.

1:04:50Jawad MirYou know, and all that stuff. So I hope that's a sign of things to come.

1:04:55John BellYeah. Yeah, me too.

1:04:58Jawad MirGreat.

1:04:58John BellYeah. It's funny, for the different, for the different effects films I worked on, still some of my favorite films are not effects films.

1:05:07Jawad MirThere you go.

1:05:07John BellKill Mockingbird, Citizen Kane. What was the one?

1:05:14Jawad MirSound of Metal.

1:05:15John BellSound of Metal that came out a couple years ago.

1:05:17Jawad MirYeah.

1:05:17John BellWith the drummer, the drummer who goes deaf. Oh, beautiful movie.

1:05:22Jawad MirHave you seen 12 Angry Men?

1:05:24John BellOh, yeah. 12 Angry Men. Yeah.

1:05:27Jawad MirYeah.

1:05:27John BellThat's a good one.

1:05:29Jawad MirThat's, that's... I think that's like a film school 101. Like, you cannot make a film like that with the way the performances and the script in one freaking room and it doesn't get bored at all.

1:05:41John BellRight.

1:05:41Jawad MirLike, there's nothing else happening in that film.

1:05:43John BellYeah.

1:05:44Jawad MirBut

1:05:44John BellOn the Waterfront's another one. I mean, there's so many.

1:05:47Jawad MirYeah.

1:05:47John BellBut The Searchers, anyway.

1:05:52Jawad MirYeah, no, this has been, great, John. If you're up for it, as kind of time progresses, I would love to do series of episodes with you, maybe on Back to the Future, maybe on Willow, et cetera, et cetera.

1:06:05John BellYeah, I'd love to. Yeah, that sounds like fun. Yeah, I really enjoyed this.

1:06:10Jawad MirSo did I. Th… thank you so much for joining in, man. I wish I could talk to you for longer, but, just the time is one of those things…

1:06:17John BellWell…

1:06:17Jawad Mir... That, we have to go by.

1:06:19John BellIf you ever get up near Bend, you know, come on over.

1:06:22Jawad MirI will, I will sure let you know if that happens, 100%.

1:06:25John BellThat'd be great.

1:06:26Jawad MirPleasure talking to you, John. Looking forward to talking more.

1:06:29John BellYou too. Have a good weekend.

1:06:31Jawad MirYou too. Bye-bye.

1:06:31John BellThanks so much. Bye-bye.

1:06:33Jawad MirBye.