'The Art of Avatar, The Way of Water', Author, Tara Bennett

0:07Tara BennettThanks for having me. It feels like today is Monday, but it's Tuesday because we had a holiday so

0:13Jawad MirThat's right

0:14Tara Bennett... I was just finishing a phone call that was like, "I gotta, I gotta go. I gotta go." So sorry for being a couple minutes late.

0:19Jawad MirNo worries at all. No worries at all. How was your long weekend?

0:25Tara BennettI had a migraine but then ... Went out to Universal so that was fun too. So kinda yin yang. That's what life is. Good day, bad day. So yeah, how about you guys?

0:34Jawad MirFantastic. Weekend was great. Weekend was great.

0:37Tara BennettGood.

0:38Jawad MirBut yeah, really excited to talk to you about, your work on Avatar: The Way of the Water.

0:46Tara BennettGreat

0:46Jawad Mir... And, before we even kinda dive into that I would love…

0:50Tara BennettSure

0:50Jawad Mir... To know more about you and what your career path has been in life.

0:57Tara BennettYeah. I did not expect to be where I am today. I, had a real love of film, especially at first, and then into television. So I went to school for it. I took a program that was radio, television, film at Rowan University. And, I, initially thought, "Oh, film," and then really enjoyed the radio part, and then really enjoyed the television part. And so I was really happy to be able to, get a taste and hands-on with a lot of different things. So then I graduated and went into corporate video which, was, not the dream, but at the same time it was a small company so I was very hands-on, and it was, you know, carrying equipment and, doing really high quality work and exposure to really great cinematographers. And then, did that for about three years and really understood production and hands-on and, started with non-linear editing and such. And then, and then went into public affairs programming where I was a producer.

2:00Tara BennettAnd then, produced a really large, public affairs, series in three states for Comcast called Comcast Newsmakers, and, did that for several years. And, loved my crew, loved working with the people I was working with, but it wasn't really why I got into television or film. It was kind of very political programming…

2:22Jawad MirYeah

2:22Tara Bennett... And live call-in shows, and I'm like, "I, you know, I can, I can do this, but I don't love doing this." And then I started, it was really the early days of, broadband internet, and, our company had brought in a company called At Home, and weirdly they wanted to start these local papers, in all…

2:43Tara Bennett... Of the areas. And so I started, writing, film reviews because a couple of my colleagues were like, "Well, you should talk to Tara. That's what she does. Like, she loves movies," and blah. And they were like, "Well, if it doesn't get in, conflict with the rest of the things that you're doing." And so I really learned how to like get into the reviewing, like with the official like, companies that were doing screenings in the area, and, started interviewing people and like talked to John Frankenheimer. He was one of my first interviews. And I was like, "Wow, I'm really enjoying this more than I'm enjoying the producing part from where I was located on the East Coast of the United States." And then it came into like what so many people in this business, deal with is, in, 2003 I got downsized from a job I wasn't un… ha… I wasn't ha… I was happy to be downsized from. I

3:34Jawad MirOkay

3:35Tara Bennett... I was really unhappy. I was doing it and kind of knew that, I was kinda forced into the job. And so I started preparing for like I'm either gonna quit or I know I'm gonna get downsized because I'm not kind of bending to wi… what the will of what these people who I didn't really like as producing partners. And then it happened, and then I got s… I got, I was like I had three months severance, and at that time I'd been writing more and more. And, I ha… I had this feeling like, well, if I can get back into video doing something I really wanna do in three months or I can get into print for the very first time, 'cause I'd only been writing online, I think that'll determine my future. And at the end of the third month I got, my first print commission for a company in England called Titan Magazines, who at that time were doing tons of, licensed magazines for shows like Alias and Buffy the Vampire…

4:28Tara Bennett... Slayer and Smallville and Charmed. And, Buffy was my favorite show, and I got into Buffy the Vampire magazine. But then that got me into all of their other magazines, and I kinda never looked back. I said, "You know, writing isn't the path that I thought," but really writing about the kind of things that inspired me as a kid and actually made me wanna get into the business. And also because I had a really hands-on career, I could communicate with below the line people and writers and producers 'cause I understood what they did 'cause I used to do it. And then, just kind of crafted this really interesting career that I had. You, I could never plan. If college me looked at it, I would've said, "nope." I would never have seen where I would've been, you know, five, 10, 15, 20 years down the line. And so that then turned into me writing, books for Titan, and then that turned into me wri… for writing many other publishers. My alma mater, Rowan University, asked me to come back and teach as an adjunct, so I've been teaching with them for, since 2007.

5:34Tara BennettI do it online now only because obviously I relocated to the West Coast. And, so I teach and I write books, and I am an entertainment journalist for bunches of outlets. And, I also, consult with big media companies about projects that they're trying to launch. So it's really, it's been this very interesting, unexpected journey that, it re… just endlessly grateful for. But, you know, have worked a very long path to kinda carve it into this thing that's, been just, a lot of fun.

6:10Jawad MirThat's great. It's so incredible that, you know, a lot of people that I talk to, whether it's on podcasts or off this podcast, and even myself a lot, I mean, I'm in the film world myself, and, a lot of us kind of took this path that we never thought that we would, you know, going from the internet, i… early days of the internet…

6:30Tara BennettYeah

6:31Jawad Mir... D… d… doing corporate work, then doing, you know, weddings, and then doing this, and then doing documentaries. I mean, the path all of us, you know, who want to go into film, like, you know, you grew up watching films like Indiana Jones, Star Wars, E.T., whatever, and you're like, "You wanna be a filmmaker." But the s… the struggle is, you know, is that you have to go through all these different paths…

6:55Tara BennettYou really do

6:56Jawad Mir... To pos… And the time you're going through that, you may think that's the worst thing, but each thing that you do prepares you for the next one, not knowing that it will, right? And that's just what…

7:07Tara BennettEntirely. En… entirely

7:08Jawad Mir... It's so incredible

7:10Tara Bennett... Th… being able to edit, you know, gave me a sense of timing, and pacing, and understanding.

7:17Jawad MirYeah.

7:17Tara BennettAnd then that also helped with my writing. And then when I was booking, you know, the television show Newsmakers, that's me booking myself to do interviews. It's, it's, you know, all of it…

7:26Jawad MirI know. I know

7:27Tara Bennett... Is just kind of a rolling, I saw, I call them transferable skills. You know, the things that you don't expect that once you learn how to do them actually open up opportunity for you. Because, I mean, think about it on your end, how many people go, "I don't even know where to start to do that," but y… I'm sure you've also gone, "Well, I do because I did this, so I at least know a way to try to do it." And then, you know, you just kinda build off of that. And for the people that just have no clue, and then just kind of look blank, you can always be the person that raises your hand and goes, "Well, I think I can do that. Yeah, I had, I did this over here, so I think I can, I can make that work." And, that's honestly, I don't know if you find the same thing, it's kept me working. Because I also never pigeon…

8:09Jawad Mir100%

8:10Tara Bennett... I've never pigeonholed myself into saying no. I mean, it's like, e… even when as I was going to college and I thought, "Oh, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go into film."

8:18Jawad MirYeah.

8:18Tara BennettI quickly learned, no, wait, there's all these th… these other two, you know, offshoots that are under my program that I'm, that's not gonna close myself off to that. I really actually like that. Let me explore it. And then I think that opened up me not saying no. And I mean no as in someone offers…

8:33Jawad MirI get it

8:33Tara Bennett... Something that I didn't expect…

8:35Jawad MirYeah

8:35Tara Bennett... And I go, "All right. Sure, I'll give it a try." You know? There's also the freelancer no, which you have to learn very l… later on…

8:41Jawad MirYes

8:41Tara Bennett... To go, "No, I don't need that 'cause I'm not gonna be able to make money," or, "I'll be able to, that's gonna work poorly for me." But the curious no I think is something that I, not saying I, to be able to get, wipe that off of my, off of my slate early on and say, "Yeah, no, I'm gonna say yes to something," and then m… m… why, no say, I'm not gonna pigeonhole myself thinking, "If I only take this path. This is the way that will get me there."

9:08Jawad MirYeah.

9:08Tara BennettIt's actually saying yes has gotten me the, to the paths I didn't even know that I would've liked and wanted, and has ended up making my career. So like, I say that to my, even to my students and other people that ask, "How do I? What do I?" I just say, "Try things."

9:23Jawad MirYeah.

9:23Tara BennettSay yes. You never know where it's gonna lead.

9:26Jawad MirIt is so true. And you know, one of the things that I've learned even nowadays, like, you know, you always have this, we all, we are all born with fear.

9:36Tara BennettYes.

9:36Jawad MirLike, the fear of, you know, no matter how many times you have failed, you always have this little bit of fear, will this happen or not? And I remember when I was running a website way, like it was a DreamWorks fan site way back in the late '90s and early 2000s, and I had no idea how to talk to publicity people. Like, how do you approach them…

9:54Tara BennettYes

9:54Jawad Mir... And ask for press kits and screening? And I remember, I'm like, "What do I do?" Like, and then when I did it and I got a yes, I'm like, really, that was it? I was holding myself back for, like, five, six months out of the fear. And that's the thing, that we think it's a daunting task, but things are pretty easy, I think, and we make them difficult.

10:15Tara BennettI think so, and I agree. And I think also, you know, the kinda eagerness that you have in the beginning when you're thinking like, "Let me be my most professional. Let me…"

10:22Jawad MirYeah

10:22Tara Bennett... Like, "What do I have to do so somebody will, like, vet me and take me seriously?"

10:27Jawad MirYeah.

10:27Tara BennettIf you start on that right foot, like, a lot of people don't even bother to start on that right foot. And then you get yes, and then you continue to get yes because you continue to, like, go, "Oh, I'm taking this seriously." Sometimes that's half the battle, the fear and then, like, just also comporting yourself in a way that, like, goes like, "Hey, I belong." And then they go, "Yeah. Guess what? You do." So…

10:47Jawad MirYeah

10:47Tara Bennett... So yeah, I agree with that 100%, and th… those are the things that, feel like really building blocky kinda things. But they actually made a really big difference for me actually getting a foot in the door, just like you.

10:59Jawad MirFantastic. That's, that's, that's a great career path. And to be able to go through all those things, I mean, not just professionally but as an individual on a, you know, level y… made you a lot of a stronger person and a better person every day, and it just gives, keeps you improving. That's fantastic.

11:16Tara BennettYeah. Yeah. I mean, like you said too, there's always that fear in this business that, you're gonna lose outlets, that you're gonna y… lose jobs, that media companies will swallow things up or they'll just disappear, which I think, you know, all of us have…

11:30Jawad MirYeah

11:30Tara Bennett... Have, whether it's from a funding side to try to make a movie, whether it's from a, just a place that you consistently, you know, lean upon for work. But, you know, getting downsized was, I was very lucky in that I graduated, got a full-time temporary job two weeks out of school, based on, you know, me saying yes and taking, you know, PA jobs and things like that. And then, and then that turned into me actually working full time, in my profession from my graduation until 2003, which is kind of unheard of. You know, like, everybody, even in school was like, "Be prepared to be a freelancer for, like, you know, figure out how to budget, you know, during the lean times." And I did the opposite. And then I chose to be a freelancer because I really did give myself the opportunity to be inside the,... Fully paid corporate and then huge broadcast company full-time employee model. And, while it was very comfortable, I wasn't creatively challenged after a certain point.

12:29Jawad MirYeah.

12:29Tara BennettYou know? And then I made the choice to say, "Well, I think I'd rather chase the things," based on my skillsets and me hopefully getting better over time and proving myself on jobs, you know, that I can, I can give people, clients, what they need. And, I've never really looked back. I mean, I've had people…

12:47Jawad MirYeah

12:47Tara Bennett... Offer me full-time jobs and I've said, "No thank you, I'm fine, being a freelancer," which I so many people would look at me like, "You're nuts." But

12:54Jawad MirI know

12:54Tara Bennett... For me creatively, it's just been the path that's felt a lot more enriching to me. And also, I've just had to rely on, my hustle, which I prefer to do. And look at the horizon and go, "Okay, something's disappearing and something's com… well, that's new. Let me try that path." That's always just feels, more alive than the kind of what I did…

13:18Jawad MirYeah

13:18Tara Bennett... Which is, you know, go into an office and come in at this time and leave at that time. That just kind of, that ate at me after a while and I'm, I'm grateful that I haven't had to do that for a very long time.

13:30Jawad MirYeah. It's, it's so true, and I think the two things that are very key are, one of them you said chasing, and then the other is the path of unknown. There's something about, when I say chasing, I don't mean chasing like, you know, millions of dollars.

13:45Tara BennettYeah.

13:45Jawad MirI'm talking like when you're chasing, there is just some sort of ex… it's just like watching a movie, like a character when he or she is going through a struggle and you're right there with them, and you are feeling what they're feeling. And when they achieve it, you know, there is that sense of relief, but then the movie's over and you're like, "Damn, it's over."

14:03Tara BennettYeah.

14:03Jawad MirAnd it's just like that. Just like that. If you get a pr… if we're working a project and if you finish it, that struggle leading up to it is painful but fun. But once it's done, then you want to do something else to chase after. And I think chasing is very…

14:17Tara BennettYeah

14:17Jawad Mir... Important in creativity. You have to. And the unknown, the path of unknown is exciting. It's scary, but it's exciting at the same time.

14:24Tara BennettI 100% agree. Yeah. And I know it's not for everyone, you know? I know there's some people…

14:28Jawad MirNo, it's not

14:28Tara Bennett... That go like, "Hey, you're nuts. I want that regular paycheck" and knowing it

14:33Jawad MirYeah.

14:33Tara BennettBut I also kind of have also lived the life of, you know, it's, it's…

14:37Jawad MirYou get used to it

14:37Tara Bennett... I've, you do, and also I think you're, you're better attuned. Media's rough. It's very rough for people, and you're more attuned for being prepared. I have so many friends that have been in, you know, jobs that were lucky enough to be in media jobs for maybe sometimes almost 20 years.

14:55Tara BennettAnd then they got let go and then they were adrift and didn't know what to do with that. And I have never been in that position because I just have always been looking for the next thing and figuring out…

15:06Jawad MirExactly

15:06Tara Bennett... How to pivot and how do I get my skillsets going so that I'm, I'm okay and I can move into a new area that, like, I hadn't thought of it, but why wouldn't I be qualified to do that? And then it just adds opportunity and I just, I have all the sympathy in the world for my friends in media that suddenly went, "I don't know what to do," but then part of me always went, "I don't wanna be in that position."

15:29Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

15:29Tara BennettI don't like it. It's like that scares me more than, like you said, the unknown or chasing something that feels like, let me give that a try and see if that's gonna be a new thing. And I would much rather be in that path than the one where some, someone that a, some company that I've been loyal to for a very long time suddenly decides, "We don't need you anymore." And you know, that's just so random and debilitating to the creative person. You know, that really like…

15:53Jawad MirIt is

15:53Tara Bennett... Writers, we're gentle little flowers. It's very hard to take that kind of like wholesale rejection

16:02Jawad MirYeah

16:02Tara Bennett... And then move forward in a positive space with it. So, yeah, I just have known, my own inner heart and listened to it from when I was downsized in 2003, and it's, it's, it's served me well luckily.

16:17Jawad MirNo, it, where just me, I, it, somebody I was, having a lunch with in LA a few weeks ago and she told me, you know, writers, artists, creative people, we're all made out of different cloth that nobody understands, and it's so true.

16:30Tara BennettIt's very true.

16:31Jawad MirWe are…

16:31Tara BennettSo true

16:31Jawad Mir... We are just, we are just completely another breed. But having said that, your book Avatar

16:38Tara BennettYes, thank you

16:38Jawad Mir... The one that you worked on, tell me how you got on board writing this book. And I mean, it's such a big undertaking of, you know, the biggest film of the year.

16:51Tara BennettYeah.

16:52Jawad MirAnd, yeah. H… how did that come about? What was the process? How did it start?

16:57Tara BennettYeah. You know, as you said, you know, kind of what you do before lays…

17:02Jawad MirYeah

17:02Tara Bennett... Off in the track that we don't even know the track is being built, towards, and that's was, that was, that was this book 100%. I've written 30 plus either by myself or with, my frequent collaborator, Paul Terry.

17:17Tara Bennett... We've written books together or we've written them separately. My first book, independently by myself was, the 24, the television series with Kiefer Sutherland companion guide, and then that got me into, continuously writing for a lot of different properties. And you know, it's been really great because a lot of the books that I'm involved with are not just a write copy, go away. It's, it's been, I've been a project manager on them all. I, you know, am very deeply involved with how should it look, what gives somebody something special, why does this book need to exist? And then really trying to think about, you know, how to, how to make something worthwhile. Because as a, as a kid who had bookshelves full of these books and used to read Starlog, had a subscription to it

18:03Jawad MirOh, yeah

18:04Tara Bennett... That, you know, th… I'm a fan, you know? And I, w… created a discerning taste as to like, well, why is that worthwhile or not worthwhile? And, you know, especially, coffee table books are not cheap and you certainly, I, my name's on, I say my name is on the title, on the, on the cover and the spine for a reason because I'm fighting to make sure that I'm, that means something. You know, that I would buy it. That I'm, that I'm gonna struggle to make sure that at the end of the day it's, it's not mediocre and that it's out of the ordinary. So I learned that and I had really great editors starting all the way back to the 24 book that wanted me, that wanted me to have a say as to like, "Well, how should we format this?" And, you know, wanted, ideas as we moved along. And so every book has been a learning experience with that. And understanding with licensing that sometimes you have boundaries that you, the license deems that you can have or not. So how do you, how are you creative within the boundaries of what a license will allow you to do?

19:05Tara BennettAnd so, the biggest book I've ever done was with Paul Terry, which was the story of Marvel Studios…... Which was the, history of, the studio. Finally, you know, basically not just being a place that's put their stamp on it and let other studios make it, but from the moment they started to wanna make their own movies and then, charting that all the way through the first, three phases of Marvel Studios history. So that was a four-year project. We were embedded at Marvel Studios. Traveled all over with them, watching, you know, huge days and, as they were shooting, you know, seminal moments, in the, in their f… in their history of making films. You know, talking to m… more than 200 people and doing interviews and then figuring out, well, w… w… how do we do this story? You know, like, what is this book? Is this a book that's a making of, or is this really about a studio and behind the scenes, you know? That, and that's when we developed was, no, it's, it's, you know, a making of book is, you know, all these people, with all these department heads and the actors and the producers, but this is the, this is the level underneath it.

20:15Tara BennettAnd so as you're watching those things being released, what are they doing at the same time it's underneath… Yeah... And charting that year by year. And so that was figuring out a concept and then working with the people at Marvel and doing tons of interviews and project managing, you know? Like, really, trying, working hard to make every page, worthwhile. And so, that, you know, was big. That was a big project, which was great, and it was received extraordinarily well. And so, I actually had worked with, a gentleman named Josh Izzo, who, worked at Fox, and so I had done several projects with him, book projects, the making of Big Trouble in Little China., ... We did, several other projects with him, but then he went on to Lightstorm. And so when he went on to w… Lightstorm and working with Jims Ca… James Cameron, he was the guy in charge of figuring out all of their transmedia, which includes publishing.

21:15Tara BennettSo I had a great relationship with him. He, knew, you know, that I had worked on a project with a very exacting auteur, as in, you know, Marvel Studios has this range of all kinds of personalities, and you have to, navigate that as a book writer as well and figuring out who are we talking to, who, you know, points of view, managing, lots of personalities. And with James, you know, he's got a really high standard, so I was, very much honored that, he was like, "Are you interested?" And I said, "Well, yeah. I mean, Aliens is one of my seminal movies." Like, I saw that as a teen and was, like, forever changed and, named a goldfish after James Cameron. You know, like, he w… he's had a huge impact on my creative, growth. And, he said, "Well, you know, we're, we're, we're getting, we're not doing a making of book right now, but we wanna do an art of book." And I, that actually was more interesting to me because… Yeah... I, the Avatar movies don't exist, your first thought is from a visual standpoint with those movies.

22:20Tara BennettYou know… Yeah... You really are just thinking of the world that he created. And to me, I was extraordinarily excited to be able to talk to the people that, you know, essentially charted that with James. So, that's how, my foot got in the door. And then, I pitched an angle for the book, you know, because, for fans of art books, there's lots of them, and they… Oh, tons... You know, there's a range of quality. And, some of them are disappointing in that they're just a lot of images without, honoring the artists themselves or, any understanding, as to why, these images are the way that they are. And then, some of them are f… feel like they're too wordy and it's like there's not enough imagery. Like, you know, like, let the art speak for itself. So there was a lot of conversation about making sure that this book had a balance because, it's been so long since the first movie. Yeah... You know, it's almost become a meme joke, you know, that everybody before the second movie opened was like, "Is anybody gonna care?

23:21Tara BennettNo one's gonna care." You know, that was the whole thing. No one's gonna show up. It's been so far in the, in the rear view mirror. And I wanted to explain from a design perspective that wasn't true for everybody that worked on this film, that they had been working for a decade. You just haven't seen them 'cause, you know, there wa… weren't cameras in the offices. And also knowing that there's a very, there's, I love books, I have a house full of them, but there's a limitation to them, you know? Y… you have a page count not just because that's a random, decision by your publisher. It's because there's a, there's a ratio for how much it… If you want more pages, then you're gonna have to pay a lot more. And so you're, you're basically trying to find the sweet spot for where, a majority of people will go, "I love that property, and I will pay for a book," you know, to have that.

24:13Jawad MirYeah.

24:14Tara BennettWhen it starts to go into a range of too many pages or volumes of things, then,... And you don't know exactly how an audience is gonna respond to a sequel after so much time apart. So, I, pitched the angle of the book very much addressing, for the two production designers, Dylan Cole and Ben Proctor, and the, costume designer, Deboral Scott. Let's, let's pick some of the designs that were really the hardest things for you to accomplish, and that then cracked the rest of the things that came. And then explaining w… why that thing was so difficult, then an audience that had been so separated for a long time from this property would then understand how that kind of breaks the creative dam for these heads of departments. And then kind of opens up w… why things moved into the direction that it did, which is what you see in the final film. And James and John, both liked that, and so that's what we did with the art book to try to, you know, distinguity, distinguish itself as a little bit of a different approach than other art books would take.

25:24Tara BennettBut then to also fill that gap that had been so present for the audience, but had not been a gap for the people that were working behind the scenes.

25:34Jawad MirYeah. And it's a great book. You know, I haven't finished it yet. I've gone through half of it. It's gr…

25:40Tara BennettThank you

25:40Jawad Mir... It's, it's really well put together, really great stories. And one thing that you talked about, it's been such a long time, will people care, you know, between the first and the second film. Everybody I remember last year I was talking to just said the exact same thing.

25:58Tara BennettYeah.

25:58Jawad MirAnd I was telling them you just watch, this movie is gonna do something special. And not because of the visuals. James, I was having this discussion with the, somebody on the podcast, I can't remember who. James Cameron and Michael Bay, I mean, there are some great directors out there, Steven Spielberg, you know, Steven Soderbergh, Christopher Nolan. But James Cameron, Michael Bay, their films are not thought-provoking, right? But they have…

26:25Tara BennettThey are scale.

26:27Jawad MirNot just scale. There's something else I found similar to in their films that I think tap with the audience. They, their d… I mean, the dialogue is not that great, but it just connects to the majority of the population.

26:41Tara BennettYou're right, 100%.

26:42Jawad MirYou know? That's, it's just, like, casual stuff about family, you know, Terminator, just like a woman, who is a single mom. You know, you look at the, Abyss, you look at Armageddon, ordinary people, like in middle America…

26:56Tara BennettYes

26:56Jawad Mir... Or in other parts of the world, and that's what taps into the audience. And people can't figure out why do they make money, and I think that's why they make money. Because th…

27:04Tara Bennett1,000%

27:04Jawad Mir... And then ob… ob… obviously with the visual representation, as well. And when you were writ… when did you start writing this book or start researching it? Was it d… closer to the release date or…

27:17Tara BennettGood question. No, it was, some... Covid has made my calendar brain a little smushy. So we're in 2003. The book literally came out day and date December with the movie. It went to the p… to the printer essentially August of 22, '22. But I started in May of 2021. So

27:37Jawad MirOkay

27:37Tara Bennett... Yeah. So and it's actually, that's a pretty long window for any of these books nowadays.

27:42Jawad MirIt is.

27:42Tara BennettIt's, so rare to get time to make good media tie-in books. I think, you know, m… most of my peers, especially anybody that's been in this business for a while, laments, you know, that, co… It's, it's mostly contracting. Contracting is pretty, has gotten pretty brutal, and have been a, been a huge log jam for, publishers to try to get approvals so that they can snap and go to a writer and a team, "You know, let's make this book." And, I've, I've had it, as bad as how I've wrote a book in a weekend. And then others, the most people, get three months, you know? So for me, I was extremely grateful that there was a runway for this that allowed us to really spend a lot of time, and it also allowed us, in that, there were so many changes James was making. You know, he's, he's not just making…

28:32Jawad MirYeah

28:32Tara Bennett... Two, he was making two, three, four, and five. And that means that, on any given day, those heads of department were not working on two anymore. They were working in the, in the future. But then the way James works is that he would look at a segment and go, "You know what? That segment in two is now gonna bo… be in three or four." And so, you know, that would, that, it definitely impacts, you know, conversation points and art that were gonna be in my book. So that was a very evolving situation of like, "Hey, you know, I talked to Ben," and he'd go, "Yeah, you know that sequence we talked about three weeks ago? That's not in the movie anymore." So that was a lot of that happening from the very beginning, of our conversations and that happened all the way up until, you know, August of, '22, when we literally had to lock and make sure that like, "Okay, it's, it's going now. It's going to bye." And that's a really short window turnaround for print anymore as well because most publishers, need a long leeway for it to go to Asia, for it to get printed, and then for it to literally come back on those, you know, container boats, to go back out to retail.

29:41Tara BennettAnd, DK, who's the publisher of this book, is a huge, you know, a book company, and so they have ways to be able to turn things around quicker, with an internal process. So, you know, I was myself just in the industry like, "Get out. We actually came out on day and date." You know, to me, that was a little mini miracle working in publishing, and I was, extremely, ad… admired and was, shocked by them being able to make that happen.

30:09Jawad MirSweet. Actually, today is the day when the film comes out on b… DVD.

30:12Tara BennettYeah. Yeah, exactly…

30:14Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Yeah

30:14Tara Bennett... Which is really wonderful. It's like, it's been nice to see, it kinda have these different waves when it came out on, SVOD, and people were watching it, and then it came out, like at the 7th, I think it was, on

30:26Jawad MirYeah. Disney

30:26Tara Bennett... Max and D+. And so now people can have a physical copy of it, and it's been nice to see people kind of like, little bumps up with the, with the book getting and, you know, people buying them in tandem or finally getting to see it and wanting to kind of have the book as a companion as they're watching so that they can kind of, watch it and appreciate it on different levels, which is always really fun for me. I just, I love, anything that I do to be a kind of a secondary life for people appreciating, a title or a franchise, in a different way.

30:59Jawad MirFor sure. And talking to James Cameron, m… I'm sure you spoke to him a few times, whether it was a… ... Mo… probably over the phone, I'm imagining. What was one thing that you learned about the film or him that you did not know before, or you had a different perception of?

31:18Tara BennettYeah. You know, Jim is, I did, he was in New Zealand. And we, I talked more to John, 'cause John is his day-to-day guy.

31:28Jawad MirYep

31:28Tara Bennett... You know, I went to Lightstorm, and, you know, they walked me through, all of the materials that they had and showed me footage and, you know, You know, Jim is always just, it's amazing to me and, you know how hands-on he is. You know, you forget, the, I mean, you know, there's like art right up there above there with, aliens with, Ripley…

31:51Jawad MirOh, yeah

31:51Tara Bennett... And the power loader suit. And that's his art, you know? Like he just like cranks that out, and then, you know, goes and makes, you know, the movie. And he is y… you kind of think, well, he's so technically oriented now, almost like a, you know, George Lucas in his later phases of making Star Wars. It was, "Hey, I've got these great concept designers, and I'm just gonna like really throw myself into new digital film," and really all the technology stuff that became like his passion focus. You know, it was…

32:20Jawad MirYeah

32:20Tara Bennett... Especially with the prequels. And with Jim, you kinda would think, well, I mean, this guy is inventing stuff to shoot, to shoot his movies and to make his vision actually, doable. And you figure, he's moved far away from those things, but then you have conversations about how like, you know, he sketched, this is wh… what his vision was for, y… you know, something that was in the sequel, and then he like, you know, shoves that off to a con… a concept designer, and then like that literally is the building, the building blocks and the DNA for something that you'll see in the movie, the, you know, the, meruis, which is where, the Metkayina live, which is the meruis are those tensile, like kind of woven, connectors…

33:08Tara Bennett... That people live in. And, you know, he kind of, sketched out a really rough form of that and like threw it over to Dylan Cole and his team. And it, and it's fun because James is a, is, both, Dylan and Ben, are like, you know, you kinda have to crack Jim's head to figure out how Jim's thinking because Jim has everything in his head, and y… you're the weird interloper that has to like kinda get in there and go like, "Can, I..." 'Cause Jim doesn't always articulate exactly 'cause he's got it there already. So concept design on his projects are very much about trying to pull out, what does that mean, and, you know, a lot of trial and error, concept design until Jim finally goes, "Yes, that's right." And also the practicalities of Jim, you know, that he may have these very fanciful ideas about how he'd like something, but he's extremely pragmatic in the execution of it. You know, he'll get, he'll get, irritated if you've created something that you actually can't have in real life, you know?

34:11Tara BennettIt's like, so these concept designers, which is, you know, when I came ov… over through time, and then also talking to Jim, is that there's this really kind of bizarre and kind of awe-inspiring process when you work on a Jim Cameron project, is that you're not making something theoretically. You actually are making things that practically can go out. And, you know, especially on the RDA and the hard surfaces side with Ben and his team and all those military things, like those are almost patentable in terms of they could go out into the real world. And, who they bring in technically to help work out the specifics of what Jim wants, you know, to have in a functional boat or a functional futuril… fu… futuristic looking, submersible, is very specific. And that's really, it's really interesting to learn how important that is to him, to learn it through his own voice. But then that also, so much of this just literally starts out with him, which is what he's always done, is just a sketch. And then, you know, and that's why it was really important for me when I would talk to anybody, and they'd go, "Yeah, you know, I just remember we were in a room with him, and he would, like talked about it."

35:20Tara BennettAnd I'd go, "Do you have that sketch?" And they would go like, "Yeah, I think we probably do." And then you'll see that in the book because for me, that's fascinating, you know, that he's still at the level of just crafting something essentially on a scratch piece of paper, and then that being literally the path towards what you end up seeing in the movie that is so impressive. And that was fascinating for me as a, an observer of process for him, and process for these particular movies that, I was really just fascinated to learn.

35:55Jawad MirYeah. I mean, now y… we've got, what? Three more films coming, and I think there was, one of them…

35:59Tara BennettYeah

35:59Jawad Mir... Was supposed to come out next year, but I think Disney pushed it to 2025 now.

36:03Tara BennettYeah. Got pushed. Yeah. Yeah.

36:06Jawad MirYeah.

36:06Tara BennettAnd, you know, I think, I mean, you know, certainly not speaking for him, but, you know, there, you learn, being in their ecosystem for an extended period of time that, you know… Jim had no question and no concern that people were gonna show up. And, you know, you can call that whatever you'd like it to, but there's certainly a confidence in his storytelling that has gotten him to where he is today. And, you kinda have to have that if you're gonna go for broke as much as he has in self-investment, putting his own money into things, you know?

36:34Jawad MirYeah.

36:34Tara BennettAnd, having, you know, if anybody knows, having worked with one financier and then maybe having your project handed off to another financier, people that get handed off something, they don't like it because they didn't necessarily y… they weren't part of the process of green-lighting something. So apathy or like, "Well, that's, we inherited that," you know? And so that, you know, to a degree with 20th Century Fox is essentially what happened with Disney. You know, Disney never green-lit Avatar. They just inherited, you know, that. And so he's has to prove himself to Disney too, you know? He's got a, you know, they showed me a sizzle reel that they essentially showed to their executives to show, "Here's where we are. Here's what you're gonna get." So there's also this sense that Jim entirely understands that he kinda has to keep proving himself over and over again. And so, you know, that to me as somebody that's just been an observer goes like, he just also knows that he needs, more time and more runway so that what you saw in one versus what you saw in two versus what you'll see in three are gonna feel like things have changed, you know?

37:42Jawad MirYeah.

37:42Tara BennettAnd that he has m… used the technology to the point where he is going to prove to you again that you're showing up again for a reason. And that's, that's exhausting from just a conceptual standpoint. But it's also admirable from a standpoint of where you go like, it's like n… no one is doing a half-ass job, you know, from, in any department. They're all being lifted to, an exactitude that's very specific to working with him. And, you know, the creators that I've talked to, the artists that I've talked to, they like that, you know? They, like, it may be hard and it may be really frustrating until you get to the thing that everyone decides that's what should it be. But you also know that people are seeing something out of the ordinary and, really specific. You know, I looked at all of these pictures essentially on Zoom screens and, you know, some footage things that I saw at Lightstorm in their premium, you know…

38:35Tara Bennett... Way of being projected. But then I, it was a whole other thing when you watch it as a completed film and you go, "I know where all those images came from. I know where they started." But when you watch them in motion and watch them in context and finished with the technology, you j… you just do sit there and go, "I don't, I don't know how they made this, but I do know how they made this." So that's like…

38:56Jawad MirYeah

38:56Tara Bennett... You know, the greatest compliment, to be able to say, like, he's, there's still things out there that can kinda have you in awe. And like you said, you know, it's, everybody has different views on, you know, do I like the story? Do I like the dialogue? Do I like this or that? But you kinda can't question when you're going in that there's something that's gonna tap into the basic human connection and emotional connections to the, to the things they're fighting for, and then how it's presented to us, which is pretty amazing.

39:27Jawad MirYeah. And, you know, you said something about James Cameron proving himself. It's so r… crazy that, you know, he made Alien, or Ter… Terminator first, I think.

39:37Tara BennettYep.

39:37Jawad MirAnd then he made A… Aliens, two hits. Abyss didn't do well. Terminator 2 did great. True Lies didn't do really that much well. But I remember when Titanic came out, was coming out, it was supposed to come out on July 2nd in 1997.

39:52Tara BennettYep.

39:52Jawad MirIt was supposed to come out the same weekend as Men in Black.

39:55Tara BennettYeah.

39:55Jawad MirAnd because, and they pushed it to December 18th.

40:00Tara BennettYes.

40:00Jawad MirAnd pro… and i… and there was all this thing that it was gonna fail. It's gonna be disaster, and look what it did. Then I remember when the first Avatar came out, everybody was like, "Who the hell is gonna watch a movie in 3D," right?

40:13Tara BennettYep.

40:13Jawad MirAnd it turned out that was the only probably best 3D movie ever made, and there was…

40:17Tara BennettEver

40:17Jawad Mir... Nothing ma… nothing ever made after that was as good.

40:21Tara BennettNo.

40:21Jawad MirAnd the same thing happened with Avatar 2. And I wonder if it will happen with Avatar 3. I've, I've no clue.

40:26Tara BennettYeah.

40:26Jawad MirBut it's, maybe that's something he gets motivated by. Maybe he enjoys that now.

40:31Tara BennettHe does.

40:31Jawad MirHe's got, he gets so used to it now, right? So.

40:34Tara BennettYeah, I think he does. I think, I, he's, you know, he's got his own standards and his own, he's got his own, benchmarks that he wants to break, you know?

40:44Jawad MirYeah.

40:44Tara BennettAnd, the, there's no like, "Yeah, no, fine. We'll just do the, what we did with 2 'cause that worked really well." As, because I don't think, just knowing the level to which he is, how specific he is, how much time he spends doing things, that, I, there's just an ethos in him now that is very much like, "Well, I'm not gonna even bother doing this if I'm not doing it at a level that feels like…

41:13Jawad MirYeah

41:13Tara Bennett... I'm changing something, changing, challenging myself, challenging everybody around me, because I know it's possible." and that's kinda the fascinating thing too, you know? Is this, is a guy that, you know, created a whole new diving mask for The Abyss so that he could get facial performances…

41:30Jawad MirYeah

41:30Tara Bennett... You know, that helped push visual effects in that movie that then became amazing in Terminator 2, and that is now, you know, ILM standards for, f… for what we accept and, as being, you know, realistic, and, changed, you know, the whole, the whole field. And, it's like if you don't have a, the thing that's weird is that, like he's got the bonafides behind all of it, you know? It's like he's, when he's…

41:54Jawad MirYeah

41:55Tara Bennett... Working, you know, when he's fascinated by underwater, ex… exploration and he's like m… m… making and inventing things for submersibles and, you know. There's just this also this sense that it's like he's not asking someone to do something that he isn't asking of himself.

42:11Jawad MirYes.

42:11Tara BennettAnd like that's a whole other thing where you go like, that might be too much for a lot of people, you know? Like I said all the way in the beginning, it's like, hey, being a freelancer isn't for everybody. Working on a Jim Cameron project is not for everybody.

42:22Jawad MirYeah.

42:22Tara BennettBut if you're up for it, there's gonna be, you know… You know, like D… Dylan and Deb and Ben said, that you know that what you make is funded and appreciated and gonna be presented in a way that you're never gonna get an opportunity by anyone else. That…

42:42Jawad MirThat's true

42:43Tara Bennett... You know, the way it's projected, the way people are gonna perceive it, the 3D that's gonna make you feel like you're part of it, that they, that it's worth, as hard as it is to do, because at the end of the day it is as pristine and as pure of a, of a, our heads to the tablet to the visual effects to the…

43:05Jawad MirYeah

43:05Tara Bennett... World that you're ever gonna get. And y… you know, as creative people, like who wouldn't wanna have th… their work, their best work framed in the best way possible? So I get it. You know? Like, you really learn that process, you know, working with him.

43:19Jawad MirAnd I think one of the reasons, I mean, I, this is my hypothesis, I could be dead wrong. He moved to New Zealand after Titanic, I think. I think…

43:26Tara BennettYes

43:26Jawad Mir... And I think that's, that's really smart thing because then he was away from all this, you know… ... Showbiz glamour and distractions about you're not doing this right or you're not doing that right, and that was probably a smart thing that he did. Aside from personal reasons, obviously, you know, growing up family there as well. But, you know, he's such a talented filmmaker and I've always, I mean, just like yourself, I mean, I've seen Aliens so many times. And, you must have seen that episode, The Movies That Made Us on Aliens on Netflix.

43:58Tara BennettYeah. Yeah, I've seen that and I've seen

44:01Jawad MirI mean… That was a shocker to me that how everybody revolted against him.

44:05Tara BennettYeah.

44:06Jawad MirLike that…

44:06Tara BennettYeah, I've, yeah, and that's, y… you know, I've known those stories for a long time. I, like, really, you know, obsessed with how he made movies, so I was, you know, a… as a kid, you know, and then as a teen and growing up, you know, I was all into, you know, family had a LaserDisc player, so I had like…

44:24Jawad MirAh

44:24Tara Bennett... The special edition of The Abyss with all of these, you know, special features at, that at the time, you know, weren't available anywhere else. There you go. I had my…... Box set for Aliens that had the director's cut, that had the extra scenes that weren't, you know, made available o… in other formats for a really long time.

44:42Jawad MirYeah.

44:42Tara BennettAnd, you know, the thing that I think that Jim also kind of made apparent even with his own featurettes and things was that like he knows that he has a potential to be seen as an ornery spirit to people that, don't understand him or can't find the benefit of, you know, of that, of that kind of passion. And, you know, and it's, it's not great for everybody, you know? But at the end of the day, sometimes the fight is w… w… is, i… is something that's amazing, you know, on the screen afterwards, and other people that even go like, "Yeah, you know what? We yelled at each other a lot, but man, I'm really proud of that piece," and then they come back and work with him again. You know, the thing about Jim is that there are a lot of people that come back and work for him again. And, I think it goes back to, again, the environment of can you hold your own with it, do you understand where it's coming from, and at the end of the day are you ultimately knowing that everybody's gonna be working towards something that everybody's gonna be super-duper proud of?

45:43Tara BennettAnd, a lot of people choose that, you know? They say, "Yeah. At the end of the day..." And, you know, e… everybody's got different working relationships with Jim too, you know? Some people don't have any. Like Deb doesn't have any friction really with him. You know, like they work in a way that, th… th… that just actually, you know, and she says, you know, that there's just this kind of understanding of his intentions and then what she does with her craftsmanship and who she works with to put together, what he's imagining a… are the elements of that area pan… of Pandora that they're representing through clothing and props and hair. And then Dylan and Ben, it's, you know, their frustration is mostly of just trying to get that thing, that specificity that's in Jim's head, and then like get that on the paper for themselves and their artists. It's not because they don't think that what they're making is absolutely incredible. It's the kind of like feeling like there's like a missing interpreter in there, and that took years for them to like have that missing interpreter go away.

46:43Tara BennettAnd…

46:44Jawad MirYeah

46:44Tara Bennett... You know, they talk about that in the book. That's, you know, that's, that's figuring out how they worked in one capacity on Avatar, and then when they're in charge of, hard surfaces on Ben's side and charge of organics on, Dylan's side, you're responsible for a whole team that now has to work towards things. And they're very honest, you know, a… about talking about what was the design thing that made them crazy. But then they talk about why it made them crazy and ultimately what it was servicing, of the whole that allowed them to understand why Jim m… makes decisions that he does. And, yeah, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, I, there's all kinds of stories about Hollywood, about people make things and who people can't work with again, but I always look at the Jim Cameron factor and go like, "Those are a lot of very similar names from one credits to the next." And, you know, people make a, the, I've worked on a lot of projects where I've seen people stay with a project from beginning to end.

47:44Tara Bennett24 was a show where so many… ... Of the people over the long span of that show, they stayed. They did not leave. You know, same first ADs, the same script coordinators, the, you know, so many people that were like became this family and like day one all the way to the very last end they were, super enthusiastic to be there. And then I worked on projects where s… there have been multiple seasons for things or, sequels for things, and everybody's names are totally different. And those are the…

48:11Jawad MirYeah

48:11Tara Bennett... Things that I look at, you know, that tell their own story as a researcher and a historian of those things that I understand what the implications are for that, and also make my own choices, you know, in my own career based on what's worth it and what creatives, make it feel like you'd like to stay and tell, help tell their stories as well.

48:33Jawad MirYeah, and I think the key to what you just said then is it's, it's very difficult, but you… when you're working in a collaborative, you know, team, whether it's filmmaking or whether it's any art, but let's say filmmaking, you ha… to make sure that the response that you're coming, or the rejection that you're coming up with, or the question that you're coming up with, is it coming from a s… from an ego side? Or is it…

49:01Tara BennettYeah

49:02Jawad Mir... Coming, or is it coming from the side of is this gonna do something great for the film?

49:07Tara BennettYes.

49:07Jawad MirAnd then, you know, that great for the film could be wrong too, but if that's the attitude, and that's why most films click. Aside from all other factors, when there's that connection and there's that chemistry and people put their egos on side. I mean, I was talking to Mark Mancina, who did the k… music for Speed and

49:24Jawad Mir... Bad Boys. And, you know, he was talking about Lion King, 'cause he kind of did some work on Lion King too, the animated one. And he was like, you know, to have people like Hans Zimmer, Elton John, Tim Rice, Jeffrey Katzenberg, you know, James Earl Jones, Jeremy Irons…

49:43Tara BennettYeah

49:43Jawad Mir... Michael Eisner, and everything clicked. Like, that is a rare thing to have…

49:48Tara BennettYeah

49:48Jawad Mir... That kind of, you know, big pig people and everything wor… and that rarely works. When you have too many big…

49:55Tara BennettOh, totally

49:56Jawad Mir... Big names, it becomes an ego issue.

49:58Tara BennettSo many, so many nightmares with that. So many nightmares with that. And like you said, there's… there's some where egos might get in the, in the way, and somehow it miraculously turns into something at the end where you go, "How did we get there?" you know…

50:14Jawad MirYeah

50:14Tara Bennett... Like, over all of that. But then there's, it's much easier to see something be super successful when everybody, like you said, subsumes, no I want for what's best for. And then, you know, you watch that path have, you know, precision points to get something smoothed out so it really does work, rather than…

50:38Jawad MirYeah

50:38Tara Bennett... It just being, "No, I see it this way and I don't care what anybody else has to say." And I'm, I'm always fascinated in that process too, you know? I'm, I'm always fascinated when,.. You know, the Marvel book, a lot of people, were like, "Oh, well you know, you were working with Marvel." And I said, "Yeah, but we would never have done the book if they weren't promising us from the very beginning." This wasn't like a one-way road where it was like, them just saying, "We say yes, you can write this book." It w… we had questions too about access and about

51:07Tara Bennett... Candid, being candid. And that book's, you know, all about conflict. It's about not knowing what they were doing. It was about m… screwing up with things and, you know, having full walls full of, index cards where they're like, "Oh, God. What have we done? We have to do all these…... You know, we have to essentially rewrite, you know, Thor The Dark World because it's a mess." You know? And omitting those kinds of things, to me, are where things get really interesting and where, as creatives, you understand, pushing for the best and having creative, you know, conversations and sometimes conflicts, in the best spirit to make something in the right way. And I…

51:49Jawad Mir100%

51:50Tara Bennett... You know, when you don't talk about those things, you really aren't capturing what the real process of creation is in any field. You know? Whether it's, you know, fighting for what's, what's right in a book, you know, that's made about something. You know? Because I've had many of those battles, about like, "Well, why can't we do that?" And well, like, but that's gonna make the, a lesser book. Let's talk about that.

52:11Jawad MirYeah.

52:11Tara BennettAnd two, making a huge movie, you know, with a, with a monster-sized budget. Like, I think that figuring out a way to creatively, get past yourself and really fight for the right story and how to make something, the end product be the best way it is, to me, is endlessly fascinating.

52:32Jawad MirIt…

52:32Tara Bennett... And it's, it's, it's the truth. If you, if you aren't gonna tell that truth, then why bother? And I've always…

52:38Jawad MirExactly

52:39Tara Bennett... Been really appreciative of, you know, Jim and everybody at Marvel Studios and all the other projects that I've worked on where that candor's been allowed to be had, because I think they also value it and understand that, like, if we don't talk about some of the things that we had to get through to get to ultimately what we're really proud of, then you don't also, you're not sharing with your audience, you know, the process that it took to get there.

53:02Tara BennettAnd there's, that there's, there's beauty in that process…

53:06Jawad MirOh, yeah

53:06Tara Bennett... At the end of the day.

53:08Jawad MirIt's, it's so important. I mean, I learned this 10 years ago, and I try to make sure I do that every day, is that you have to have people on your team that are better than you.

53:18Tara BennettOh, yes.

53:18Jawad MirAnd that, and ones that you're gonna butt your heads against.

53:23Tara BennettYep.

53:23Jawad MirIt is so important. As long as you keep that personal and personal, professional, you know, relationships as separate…

53:30Tara BennettYeah

53:31Jawad Mir... It does wonders. The best stuff comes out. And, you know, on that note, Ta… Tara, I wanted to know if there's something you wanna talk, you're able to talk about in terms of what you're working on next that's down the pipeline. Or without talking about the title, are you working on anything at the moment?

53:46Tara BennettYeah. Paul Terry and I are working on something else, in the, in the Marvel Studios realm. Much smaller, scale… ... But something we're very still proud of, that will probably get a… announced later this year. And, that is, you know, something that was a byproduct of us working there for so long, which was great. It is not a sequel to what we did. You know?

54:12Jawad MirYeah.

54:12Tara BennettI have tons of people asking, you know, "Well, are you gonna tra… you know, chart the rest of the phases?" That's, that's a m… that's a Marvel decision somewhere down the line and who knows? But, yeah. No, this is, this is something under th… their banner, but something very separate and different, which we're really enjoying. And, yeah. You know, I mean, the, I don't have, that same old thing that we talked about in the beginning, which is I don't know…

54:36Jawad MirI know. I know

54:36Tara Bennett... What's coming down the pa… pike sometimes. Like, I genuinely don't. Like, I literally could get an email tomorrow with a project and I'll go like, "Oh. Well, there's my fall." You know? Like, that has happened so many times in... You know, sometimes I will fall in love with something and then I will chase it. You know, I will go like, "Who do I know? How do I put that out there?" And… And, you know, bookmaking is different. You know, I've talked about it in other places. But, you know, the, w… I alluded to it earlier on, in the interview, is that, you know, where, the passion of making tie-in books of a caliber that I really, you know, I wanna do is not always an industry standard anymore because of those…

55:16Jawad MirYeah

55:16Tara Bennett... Crash times to turn things around or because, you know, the, that you don't get always the right resources or the right access to things. And, you know, I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do those. So if that means that my, you know, my m… my rotation list of things that I'll be doing in a book format are, maybe more scattered or less frequent, that's okay. That's, that's, that's literally a choice because I don't wanna turn around a book,.. One, I… I'm at a point, and I'm so grateful for it, that I really wanna be passionately involved with something, and I've had, you know, a, I have a great resume full of books that I was so passionate about, 'cause that's, that's what I do. When I, when I get involved with something I'm just really excited and throw…

56:00Jawad MirGood

56:00Tara Bennett... Myself into it. And I, you know, if I don't know a property and I'm not gonna l… I don't know if I'm gonna like it or I don't know, I, you know, I've had some book projects that have fallen through, and when, once I really got to read a script or I really got to see early stuff, I'm like, "Thank goodness that fell through." And, you know, I just was like... Because at the end of the day, I was like, "Oh, I was hopeful that was gonna be cool," especially things that are more, current, you know?

56:24Jawad MirSure.

56:24Tara BennettYou're kind of working in parallel with a project, and then you really don't know what that's gonna be because a final film is obviously not something that's gonna be finished by the time you finish writing a book. So you're, there's a little bit more risk with that. And I think, you know, people can see in my catalog that there's less current things and a little bit more legacy things that have been happening. And I think that there's a candor that comes with that. There's some distance where people can look back at things. Avatar 2 is definitely current. But it was also a project where they afforded me time and they afforded us all access to what we needed. And it was really showcasing, you know, all of these people that have been laboring for years that, you know, were never really gonna get their chance to shine until the final movie…

57:07Jawad MirRight

57:07Tara Bennett... Movie came out. But there's still, you know... You're not watching Avatar 2 with an indices that's like, you know, little quick hot po… like this, you know, Jonathan Ben Ruby, and then, you know, this artist here. You, like, it's still anonymous. And so for me, I was so excited to be able to be on something current because I felt like once it came out, if you were, you know, enraptured by what you saw, the book was now this place for you to go and look at the, what the individual artist did, for you to be able to understand their process and what they worked through to get to those things that impressed you so much. And that, for me, felt like a really interesting current project to do…

57:44Jawad MirSure

57:44Tara Bennett... Because it was like a secondary experience to let yourself be immersed. And then if you are more interested afterwards, there's this book here that's really gonna walk you through, all those things that you saw, and hopefully give you a brand new appreciation for a roster of artists that are on Instagram, where you can go look at their process and they share more. And that to me just feels like this really kind of cool, extension, especially for upcoming artists or for upcoming filmmakers that understand, you know, what visuals can do to tell your story. So yeah, those are... I mean, I guess I'm, like, that's a long way of saying I'm picky now.

58:23Jawad MirNo, that's, that's…

58:23Tara BennettAnd I'm not apologetic for it, but I'm, like, I'm pickier now and I, and that's okay. I'm fine with that.

58:29Jawad MirNo, that's great. And you need to be picky because you can only en… end up doing good work on something that you're passionate about. And, you know, that…

58:35Tara BennettA thousand percent.

58:36Jawad MirW… with that said, thank you so much for your time. Really had a great time chatting with you.

58:42Tara BennettThank you.

58:42Jawad MirWould love to do this again. Maybe we can schedule a conversation about another book of yours down the road.

58:46Tara BennettHey, anytime.

58:47Jawad MirYeah.

58:47Tara BennettOr if you wanna do like…

58:48Jawad MirYeah

58:48Tara Bennett... A mixture of a couple of 'em, you know, that…

58:50Jawad MirAbsolutely

58:50Tara Bennett... You find interest in, I would love to do that, 'cause, yeah, I mean, it's always, it's always fun as somebody that's, you know... Writing is a very solitary, little monster of a job. You're in here and you're just typing, and then you see it go out into the world, and that's only when you kinda go, "Oh, hey, people enjoyed that and liked it as much as I liked working on it." And then, you know, to talk about it is, sometimes weirdly makes it feel more real. So thank you for making it feel more real.

59:16Jawad MirNo. No, it's, it's, even doing this podcast is therapeutic. So it's, it's a good thing even for me, and I'm sure for you.

59:22Tara BennettYes.

59:22Jawad MirAnd thank you so much again.

59:24Tara BennettThank you.

59:24Jawad MirAnd we'll talk soon, for sure. Thank you so much, Sharon.

59:26Tara BennettThank you so much.

59:27Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.