'Starship Troopers', Concept Artist, John Bell

0:08Jawad MirHow is, how are things in Oregon?

0:10John BellOh, they're doing all right. Doing all right. It's a little smoky. We're getting a lot of, fires to the south of us, and so the winds have brought the smoke up into our area. It's not so bad today, but a few days ago it was pretty rough. Couldn't go outside, really.

0:29Jawad MirOh, that sucks. Well, I hope things get better for you guys.

0:33John BellYeah. How you doing?

0:36Jawad MirI'm doing great. Thanks for asking, and thanks for joining in again.

0:41John BellSure

0:41Jawad Mir... Really looking forward to talking to you about, Starship Troopers and… I saw the film again just, I think, a few days ago.

0:54John Bellhuh.

0:54Jawad MirAfter a long time. And…

0:57John BellYeah

0:57Jawad Mir... It w… I mean, I remember when I first saw it. I'm not, you know, not like I'm the only one. A lot of people don't care for bugs, right? You know, and seeing on the big screen the gigantic, you know, if you wanna call them spiders or whatnot or... I mean, it was, as realistic as it was back then, it certainly was even, you know, watching it a few days ago, it's just so timeless in terms of effects.

1:27John BellYeah

1:27Jawad Mir... And obviously the violence was right up there, just like Robocop. You know?

1:34John BellI know. Verhoeven doesn't pull any punches, does he?

1:37Jawad MirNo. So it was, it's still, it's, I mean, it has a lot of, you know, it was not like an Oscar material, but it was still very entertaining in terms of effects and in terms of, thrills and chills. It was good. It was a really enjoyable film, so I just wanted to sort of…

1:54John BellYeah

1:54Jawad Mir... Mention that.

1:55John BellI haven't watched it in a long time either. And I remember, I remember when I first read the script, I thought it was gonna be a more of a serious movie, you know? But I didn't know it was gonna be so campy. Which was…

2:09Jawad MirYeah

2:09John Bell... Surprising. You know?

2:11Jawad MirI mean, when the film starts off, like with that commercial, I don't know if you remember, because they're trying to recruit, people to join the military.

2:19John BellYeah.

2:20Jawad MirAnd it certainly had a, like throughout the film with the acting and dialogue and it had that B movie kind of a feel.

2:30John Bellhuh.

2:31Jawad MirI don't know if you felt that, and I don't know if it was intentional or... It…

2:35John BellYeah

2:36Jawad Mir... I got, I got that vibe watching it now.

2:39John BellYeah, I'm, yeah, the last time I saw it, which was, pfew, probably close to 10 years ago, was I went, "Man, I forgot how campy this movie is." You know? It's like Beverly Hills 90210 in outer space.

2:55Jawad MirThat's a great way of explaining it. I mean, it certainly had like that soap opera kind of a feel to it in how, you know, you have four people and conveniently certain characters die because other characters had to be together and…

3:10John BellThat's right.

3:13Jawad MirTell me, how did you come on board, you know, obviously when we talked last time, you worked on such incredible titles with such great filmmakers. How did you come on board Starship Troopers?

3:25John BellIf I remember, I think, Phil Tippett got me involved in it, because I had just come back to the Bay Area. I started working on it in 1995. And I just had moved back to the Bay Area from Oregon, where I was working at Nike in '93, '94.

3:43John BellCame back to the Bay Area in '94, and after having spent some time with Phil on Jurassic, he remembered me and he con… if I remember right, he contacted me and he said, "You know, I need somebody to do some storyboards. You wanna do some storyboards for this Verhoeven movie?" I said, "Sure," 'cause I was working freelance at the time. So I said, "Yeah, that sounds great." You know, to work with Phil again, he's such an incredible talent, you know. And he's got so much raw energy. It's, it was fun. So I went right for it.

4:24Jawad MirAnd what were some of the early, storyboards like that you started working on, and how much of that kinda made it to the film?

4:35John BellWow. I worked on so many different action scenes. I mean, it was all big bug battle stuff.

4:45Jawad MirOkay.

4:45John BellAnd I remember I was doing some boards, I can't remember which bat… which of the battles I first did storyboards for. But I remember being inspired by the writing, and I wanted to help visualize some of the soldiers and the drop ships that come down to the planet.

5:09John BellAnd so I'd done a color sketch of a drop ship at night, and it's got lasers coming out of it, and there's troopers running all around in different directions. And, John Davison, the producer, saw it and he goes, "Wow, we need you to do some more. You wanna do some concept work on this too?" So I said, "Sure, yeah, I'd love to. You know, the more you wanna give me, the, you know, the happier I'll be on this." You know? So it just kinda snowballed from there. Eventually I got moved down to work in the art department down in Los Angeles over at, Sony Studios. And, yeah, I was down there for months. It was, it was really fun.

5:56Jawad MirSo in terms of concept, what kinda stuff did you come up with? You know…... Conceptualizing. Was it, was it bugs, ships, or a combination of both, or?

6:05John BellNo, Craig, what was his name f… at Phil Tippett's shop? Craig, can't think of his last name. Craig... Yeah.

6:17Jawad MirI'll look it up.

6:17John BellHe designed the bugs. He and Phil designed the bugs. And Craig had been working at Phil's place, he helped to design the, Ed-209…

6:29Jawad MirOkay

6:29John Bell... Along with Milo Rodis for Robocop.

6:32Jawad MirRight.

6:33John BellAnd so Craig was really young at the time, and, Phil took him under his wing and had him create these bugs, which were fantastic looking. When I first saw the scale models of those, I hadn't seen anything like it. You know, they were just remarkable. You know, they were really dangerous looking, and otherworldly obviously, and I don't know, they just looked fantastic. I couldn't wait to see them animated.

7:03Jawad MirYeah. I mean, that was the thing, right? For, I don't know, how you felt. There were those giant bugs which were, you know, great and everything. But to me those, if you wanna call them mosquito-looking spiders, you know, I don't know if there's a specific name for it, the way they kinda just come in a mass number…

7:24John BellYeah

7:24Jawad Mir... And how, and how realistic they look, not only in that shot but when they're actually tearing people apart.

7:31John BellYeah.

7:31Jawad MirI mean, you c… it's, it's amazing how much te… it was after Jurassic Park, but still, it's, it still lives up very clearly in terms of effects.

7:40John BellYeah. It was only, Jurassic came out in '93, the effects were done in '92, so three, two and a half, three years passed. It was an incredible breakthrough, you know? You could see how fast the CGI was improving in such a short period of time. It's like the way this Midjourney and the AI programs are…

8:03Jawad MirYeah

8:03John Bell... Developing so quickly. You know, a year and a half ago you looked at Midjourney stuff and you go, "Oh, yeah, that's kinda cool." And now you look at them, the resolution is so high.

8:14Jawad MirYeah.

8:14John BellIt's pretty incredible.

8:16Jawad MirI mean, I'm kinda going segue here. I was just reading yesterday, I'm sure you came across this too, in terms of the strike that's going on, right? Netflix and other studios, but specifically Netflix, has, like, made these job postings. AI engineers and all that, and someone who has experience with platform. You know, salary of 900K, 650K. And…

8:43John BellYeah

8:44Jawad Mir... They're, they're not even concerned about the strike. I think they're just, and the, I feel they're gonna win because…

8:51John BellYeah

8:51Jawad Mir... The leverage they have. But anyways, I'm just kinda going off topic here.

8:56John BellYeah. It's an interesting, predicament for Hollywood in general, you know? And actors, and creative, all the creative side of the business is really being impacted right now by AI.

9:11Jawad MirBut…

9:11John BellConcept work, writers.

9:13Jawad MirYeah. It's funny because literally four months ago, my DP, who's my friend as well, and I were chatting, that how animation, animators are gonna go out of business. You know, the way things are going with Midjourney and all this stuff. Nobody had ev… even the actors weren't even on the radar at the time. And…

9:35Jawad Mir... Look how that has sort of unfolded, right?

9:39John BellYeah. Yeah, that, you can recreate if you wanted, if, you know, if you wanted, Daniel Day Lewis in a film, you could probably recreate him CGI. And I don't know what kind of licensing and lawsuits would come of that, but... Then you've got voice talent that can, you know, AI voice talent that can replicate famous people's voices, celebrity voices. Anyway.

10:10Jawad MirIt's crazy. It's crazy.

10:11John BellThat's a whole nother…

10:12Jawad MirYeah

10:12John Bell... Whole nother thing going on there.

10:15Jawad MirWhat did you work on Starship Troopers in terms of concept artist? Like, run the, run it by me.

10:21John BellI was doing, in some of those early piece, like that one piece I was just talking about with the troopers running around and this drop ship and everything, I started working on, some of the trooper designs, some of their weapons. And then involved in that, I started creating some of the logos and graphics, you know, the big, the big…

10:48Jawad MirYeah

10:48John Bell... Corporate flags, the patches that are on the uniforms. I got to do all kinds of different things. I had some influences on the, on the ships, on the big cruise, you know, the big spaceship cruisers. And, so yeah, I was able to bounce around and kinda dip into all different types of things. But I'd say that mostly the stuff, I know, Jim Martin, he was in the art department and he, a lot of his designs were used for the final designs for the drop ships.

11:25John BellSo the stuff that I was designing became eventually a little more peripheral. I mean, aside from the helmets I did and some of the weapons that I inspired. But a lot of the other stuff was, like, to help flesh out and give the world, you know, some depth.

11:47Jawad MirRight.

11:47John BellYou know?

11:48Jawad MirWell, helmets is something that really stands out in that film. I mean, you know, when I think of Starship Troopers, it's those bugs that come to mind and the helmet. Like, literally. So your inspiration, what kind of inspiration did you draw from in terms of…... Conceptualizing the helmet and the weapons. If, you know, what kind of research you did. Was it other movies? Was it other artists?

12:14John BellYeah, other artists. I think back at that time, you know, this is, mid…'90s. And this, you know, f… this friend of mine, Nilo Rodis, I hope you get to interview him sometime. You know, he was such a big influence on my career in general, but I always loved his design sense. And so I was looking at his work. I was looking at, I was looking at, Akira for inspiration. And I wasn't just looking at other existing helmets. You know, I always like to try to draw influence from different things. So if I'm designing a helmet, I might look at architecture, or I might look at, the wheels of a automobile. You know, I try to look at different things to try to bring something fresh into whatever I'm working on.

13:08Jawad MirRight. Nilo did what films that you were talking about

13:12John BellNilo, N-I-L-O, Rodis, R-O-D-I-S. He worked with Joe Johnston on the Star Wars films, and then, he has just... He's kinda purposely laid low, kinda in the background. He… he's kind of reclusive in a way.

13:34John BellBut super talented. He designed so many of the costumes in the third Star Wars film. Boba Fett's ship, you know, that iconic ship.

13:46Jawad MirYep.

13:47John BellHe's done a lot of incredible stuff. The speeder bikes…

13:53Jawad MirGot it

13:53John Bell... In Star Wars.

13:54Jawad MirYeah, he did, Star Trek 6…

13:57John BellYeah

13:57Jawad Mir... With Borg.

13:57John BellLot of Star Trek work.

13:59Jawad MirJohnny Mnemonic with, Keanu Reeves. And…

14:03John BellHe's a super interesting guy, and he, it would be worth your time to talk with him.

14:12Jawad MirYeah, I'd love to.

14:12John BellHe has too many stories to tell.

14:14Jawad MirHe d… he did Virtuosity. Fire in the Sky, which was a great, UFO film. Poltergeist, he worked with Spielberg on that.

14:26John BellYeah.

14:27Jawad MirRaiders. Assistant art director on Raiders. Interesting.

14:30John BellYeah.

14:31Jawad MirAnd, you know, what... It's, this is a tough question to ask 'cause everybody operates at a different wavelength. Y… you know, when you are... You said you look at the wheels of the car or other things just to get inspiration, and i-t… you know, cinematographers would look at, you know, other people's work. Directors would look at other people's work just to kind of sit that, have that stuff sit in their subconscious so they can somehow derive it out.

15:07Jawad MirWhat part of a wheel, for example, or any other object, that process from inspiration to actual drawing. Wha… what is that bridge like?

15:18John BellOh, my gosh. That's har… That's, that's difficult to put into words.

15:22Jawad MirI know. I know.

15:23John BellIt's…

15:23Jawad MirI know

15:24John Bell... It's very difficult to put into words. I mean, it could,..

15:31Jawad MirAnd if you asked me that about what I do, too, in terms of directing…... I wouldn't have been able to answer it as well, but I just find it fascinating. I know what I think, you know, because…

15:39John BellYeah

15:39Jawad Mir... It's in my head somewhere.

15:42John BellYou know, 'cause it's not pure. It's not, it's not purely like I'll look at a wheel and I'll go, "Oh, okay, I get it." It's, it's just a feeling, you know? It's, it's the feeling that the wheel or the building will evoke, you know? It's gonna evoke a feeling of sophistication or technology or it's scary or

16:05Jawad MirOkay. Yeah, that's good.

16:06John BellSo it, yeah, it's, it's really difficult. And, you know, once you look at the wheel, you're, you're also... Then in y… my mind, I'm looking at the wheel and I go, "Oh yeah, that reminds me of, you know, something that I saw," you know, a boulder or a rock formation or something. Oh, that, and then that reminded me of, you know, the colors might have come from, you know, a, I don't know, an autumn tree or, you know, a leaf or something. So all of a sudden, all these things just start mixing up and together and…

16:46Jawad MirYeah

16:46John Bell... And your hand starts moving and something comes out of it.

16:50Jawad MirDi… did you…

16:51John BellI don't know how, I don't know how else to describe it. It's…

16:53Jawad MirNo, that was perfect

16:55John Bell... It's strange

16:55Jawad Mir... Because it is, it is a collection of random thoughts that are sitting in the different corners of your brain…

17:03John BellYeah

17:03Jawad Mir... That somehow come together, and then stuff comes out, you know?

17:08John BellYeah.

17:08Jawad MirJust the vision comes out.

17:10John BellAnd actually, Nilo, going back to Nilo for a second.

17:13Jawad MirYeah.

17:13John BellNilo once told me, he said the best designers are the ones with the best memories because they can go back and go, "Oh, I remember being on a hike in Glacier National Park, Montana one time, and I saw this tree root, and the way that it was shaped against the ground, that would make a great creature. Yeah, let's use that as an inspiration."

17:38Jawad MirThat makes sense. That clearly makes sense. And that is it. I think it's just, you know, a collection of memories and thoughts that come together to create a vision that you want.

17:48John BellYeah.

17:49Jawad MirOkay.

17:50John BellLike a lot of the... Sorry. For some of the stuff that I designed for Starship, I got inspiration. There was this book called The Art of the Third Reich.

18:01Jawad MirOkay.

18:02John BellAnd, there were some graphics in there that were being developed And I went, "Wow, that's..." You know, it's, I wasn't trying to go for a Nazi vibe, but I was trying to go for that oppressive inspiration. And I found this one logo, this one graphic, I don't even know if it was ever used by the Germans, but it was a, it was a really interesting graphic and I thought, "I'm gonna use that as an inspiration for the flag of the trooper," you know, the Starship Troopers…

18:39John Bell... Flag.

18:39Jawad MirYeah.

18:40John BellSo it got blown up, you know, to, I think at one point in the film it's, it's in a big circle on the, on the floor of the academy maybe. I can't remember exactly. But I remember it get… it getting used a lot in the film.

18:54Jawad MirIs it the eagle type?

18:57John BellIt looks like an eagle, yeah.

18:59Jawad MirYeah. I think I've seen that…

19:00John BellIt looks like an e…

19:01Jawad MirSorry, go on.

19:02John BellNo, I was just gonna say, it looks like an eagle. It's, it's very stylized. It has these kind of wings that come up.

19:09Jawad MirYep.

19:12John BellYeah.

19:12Jawad MirI think I've seen that logo in some capacity or another. I've seen a lot of World War II movies, so it does, it does ring a bell. Now, I don't know if I saw it on a Nazi's or some… somewhere else. But it does ring a bell that it…

19:29John BellYeah

19:29Jawad Mir... Was something s… you know, s… of that nature. And I was just gonna ask you something, I lost my train of thought. Give me a second. We were talking about…

19:45John BellThe…

19:45Jawad Mir... Before the…

19:47John BellFlag Nilo, the memories, great memories

19:51Jawad MirYeah, I'm sure I'll come back to it. Oh yes, there we go. Robocop had, because, I mean, Robocop is like such a cultural phenomenon. You know, with such a simple story about revenge but with a twist of a man getting into a robot machine and taking revenge and re… realizing his identity or finding out who he is.

20:14John BellYeah.

20:14Jawad MirDid you see any of the... I mean, it had a lot of cool stuff. You know, there was the weapon, then there was that, antagonist robot at the end. Were there any visuals or inspirations that you... Or did you see Robocop just to understand what kind of look, Paul would want, in Starship?

20:33John BellYeah, I enjoyed, I enjoyed Robocop. I mean, some of the violence got way over the top for me, but I still enjoyed the design aspects of it. When I saw the ED-209, it just blew me away. And I loved, I loved how it moved, I liked its whole attitude. I really enjoyed that. So, knowing that his, that his tendencies go towards very chunky and blocky things…

21:03John Bell... Visually, I kinda kept that in mind when I was working on different aspects of the project.

21:12Jawad MirAnd, you know, one of the things I may have, I know I've talked to a few people about this. Like as a conceptual artist, storyboard, production designer, all, or art department, all these jobs, all these, positions, a lot of the work that people do, just like in cinematography, but it's, the ratio of that is very different, it doesn't see the light of the day, right? Like even an actor…

21:38John BellYeah

21:38Jawad Mir... Like a sup… a supporting actor scene may be cut and they're not even in the film at all.

21:43John BellYeah.

21:44Jawad MirHow do you, is that something you get used to over time? That, you know, you've been, you've done this work, you've been paid for it, which is great, but it becomes, either it's not used or it becomes like a stepping stone for other artists or art department to kind of climb on and finish it up.

22:03Jawad MirHow does that feel, dealing with that at times?

22:09John BellWell, you know, I, it's great if the work that I'm doing is inspiring somebody else in the art department to come up with something better. I love that. But, you know, there's some ideas that I think fit well into a story and don't get used, and that's…

22:31Jawad MirYeah

22:31John Bell... You know, it's kind of, it's kind of disheartening. But you go into this job knowing you're trying to get inside the head of the director and try to get his intentions and the feeling that he wants to evoke with his... It's his story and it's his film, and I'm just trying to help visualize it for him.

22:53Jawad MirRight.

22:54John BellSo it's all about trying to create images that resonate with him so he goes, "Yes, that's the feeling I'm looking for." You know? But aside, I mean, that's all you can do.

23:09Jawad MirYeah.

23:09John BellYeah.

23:10Jawad MirI w… I was reading that how Paul, because the film is b… based on a book, which I didn't know, and how he didn't finish the book because he thought it was really badly written. And then he went to the author, his name was I think Ha… Heinlein. And he said, "Just, you know, tell me the rest of the story." so which I find ironic because the film itself had very interestingly not so great dialogue.

23:43John BellYeah.

23:44Jawad MirYou know? Did you know about that?

23:49John BellI knew it was from a book. And, I think that's what, I think that's what led me to start to believe that it was gonna be a little bit more of a serious take on things.

24:02Jawad MirYeah.

24:02John BellI never read the book, so I didn't know anything about the dialogue in the book, you know, the writing style. But I felt like, oh, if this is a science fiction book it's probably gonna be pretty serious.

24:15Jawad MirYeah, the trailer certainly gave that away. And like I said, like, when the film begins, and I watched it a few days ago, it's just that voice, you know, that, the '40s kind of, the troops are coming home, and we must fight, and, you know…

24:29John BellYeah

24:29Jawad Mir... All that stuff. I mean, it just, it threw me off right off the bat because it took me... Even though I had seen it when it came out, it took me 15 minutes to figure out the tone of the film. Is it supposed to be serious? Is it supposed to be a comedy?

24:43Jawad MirLike, I could not figure it out.

24:46John BellYeah. I think it took me till the shower scene to f… realize, oh, okay, this is a, this a campy movie here.

24:56Jawad MirAnd do you watch, did you ever see Breaking Bad? The s…

25:01John BellNo, I never watched Breaking Bad. My wife watched it. She enjoyed it.

25:05Jawad MirYeah, so Dean Norris, who was the cop in Breaking Bad, like, he's one of the s… probably the second me… leading role. He's in, Starship Trooper as, the commanding officer who reinstates, Rico. He's the bald guy. Like, he's a very small role.

25:22John BellOh, really?

25:23Jawad MirAnd I saw it, and I'm like, "Oh my God, he's in Breaking Bad. That's like 10 years ago."

25:30John BellYeah, I can't say a lot of the other actors made it into, you know, long in their career.

25:37Jawad MirWell…

25:37John BellDenise Richards kind of did.

25:39Jawad MirYeah.

25:39John BellBut she was always kind of a, "Yeah, we need, we need some, you know, some sex appeal in here. Let's, let's get Denise Edward or Denise Richards in this film."

25:52Jawad MirAnd what's his name, Neil Patrick Harris. I think he kinda made somewhat of a career.

25:55John BellYeah. He's the one, yeah.

25:56Jawad MirYeah. But…

25:57John BellBut who was the camp... Who was the, who was, who was Ri… not Rico. Who was... Yeah, who was Rico?

26:05Jawad MirNo clue. No clue.

26:07John BellCasper Van Dien.

26:09Jawad MirSee the... So let me see if he's still around and doing stuff.

26:13John BellI remember when he came into the art department. He and Denise Richards came into the art department one day.

26:22Jawad MirCasper Van Dien. He

26:24John BellI think that was his name.

26:26Jawad MirYeah, that's it. You remember pretty well. I mean, I've never seen him in any other film.

26:31John BellNo.

26:32Jawad MirHe has done... Oh, he was in Sleepy Hollow. He was in Alita: Battle Angel.

26:40John BellOh.

26:41Jawad MirInteresting. Now I'm, I'm curious. He's been doing movies. He did, like, 10 movies in 2022.

26:49John BellReally?

26:51Jawad MirThat's according to IMDb. Fascinating. I've never come across his work ever again after Star…

26:59John BellNo, me neither. Wow.

27:01Jawad MirAnd there was a sequel to Starship Troopers?

27:06John BellI don't know.

27:06Jawad MirTraitors of Mars? This is interesting. Probably like a direct-to-video movie.

27:16John BellYeah. That's funny. Oh my gosh.

27:21Jawad MirBut, you know, who was, in, Starship Troopers that... I was just thinking about the name. He... Just lost... I had that in the

27:33John BellWas he the…

27:34Jawad MirSleepy Hollow

27:34John Bell... Was he the sergeant? The guy who lost his hand?

27:37Jawad MirYes. He was in…

27:38John BellI helped design that hand, too. That was another big…

27:40Jawad MirDid you?

27:41John Bell... For me, yeah.

27:42Jawad MirOh, please talk about it.

27:44John BellI helped design the hand.

27:44Jawad MirI'm glad. I'm glad you brought it up.

27:46John BellWhat was his name? Rasczak? Something like that.

27:49Jawad MirI think so. Yeah, I think so. Let me just take…

27:56John BellI don't know. It was…

27:56Jawad MirGo on

27:56John Bell... The hand design. I can't even remember what inspired me. I think I just started. I was looking at my hand, and I thought, "Okay, if this is a mechanical hand, what would it look like?" And I think I just started drawing shapes. And then I put some,.. Gosh, I can't even remember the drawing. It had, it had some lines on the top of it or something. I should pull up my, I should pull up my folder while we're sitting here talking.

28:24Jawad MirYeah. Go for it.

28:25John BellSo I can, so I can at least visually recall what the heck I did back in 1995.

28:34Jawad MirHis name was Michael or Ironsi… Ironside, the sergeant.

28:39John BellThat was his name?

28:41Jawad MirYeah. I mean, it's... I mean, everybody, obviously, that movie's, like, almost 26 years old. Everybody looks so different.

28:50John BellWow.

28:52Jawad MirBut yeah, if you have some of the work to pull out, please, I'll, I'll wait. Let's, let's do that.

28:57John BellYeah. I'm looking right now. I'm looking through the folder 'cause there are so many. You know, like you were saying earlier, there's so much, there's so many drawings that don't make it to the final cut.

29:10Jawad MirYeah.

29:10John BellAnd you're... And it's just that process of trying to hit the mark, and the schedule doesn't allow you to really do a lot of exploration. I mean, you have to, you have to hit it pretty fast because they're not gonna wait for you. And that's what keeps you... If you can hit the mark pretty quickly, then that will allow you to get onto other films.

29:37Jawad MirYeah.

29:38John BellYou know?

29:39Jawad MirYeah, no, that makes sense. It's, it's a, it's, it's, a, it's a skill, obviously, right? Like, you ha… not only in terms of how good you are but how good you are at what speed. Because every…

29:50John BellYeah

29:50Jawad Mir... Every, day is, like, money lost if things don't move forward in any level of production.

29:57John BellWell, let me,.. Let's see if I can share my screen. I'm looking for that, specifically that hand. Okay. I'll share my screen, and we'll see what we can, look at that's, that's fun or interesting.

30:16Jawad MirSure. That'd be great.

30:20John BellHost disabled participant screen sharing

30:24Jawad MirI didn't do anything like that, but let me see how to undo that. I've never even done anything like this before. Hold on.

30:34John BellYeah.

30:34Jawad MirShare screen. Multiple participants. Try it now.

30:39John BellOkay. Let's see.

30:47Jawad MirNo, it's still set up as host only.

30:50John BellNo. No.

30:50Jawad MirHold on. Let me go into the, menu here. Share screen. Automatically. One sec. Give me in 30 seconds.

31:13John BellOkay. Wow. I'm looking back at my folder. I even designed some, death cards for the, that the troopers would use.

31:39Jawad MirThat's cool. That's, that's really nice. Okay. Let's see. If I make you co-host, are you able to do it now?

31:53John BellLet me try. No.

32:03Jawad MirHuh.

32:04John BellNo.

32:04Jawad MirI just did what I... Hold on. Oh, here we go. Now you should be able to.

32:32John BellI can give it a shot. Oh, yeah. Okay. So you can see this?

32:43Jawad MirYep. Yep.

32:47John BellAll right. Let's see. I should try to make this stuff bigger. Just gonna scroll through.

32:59Jawad MirYeah. That's fine.

33:01John BellThis is some, this is some city stuff. Some city sketches. That interrogation unit.

33:10Jawad MirYeah.

33:10John BellWhich reminded me of Total Recall.

33:12Jawad MirI was just gonna say that. That looks really nice, man.

33:15John BellYeah.

33:19Jawad MirCan you make the window bigger a little bit? Just, I mean, I can see it, but just,.. There we go. That's perfect.

33:25John BellHow's that?

33:26Jawad MirYeah, that's great. That's perfect. Which do you think

33:31John BellYou know, some drawings never even got past the line drawing stage.

33:36Jawad MirWell, I'm just looking at this and I'm thinking like, how in the world did you just, you know, just from a standpoint of putting it on paper is such a difficult task. But I mean, that kinda looks like, Storm, Stormtroopers getting in there.

33:52John BellYeah.

33:52Jawad MirYou have, that has that vibe.

33:57John BellI think that was at the academy, the key, like the quad. I can't remember what happened. He got teleported from his house to some place, didn't he?

34:10Jawad MirNo, he was just connected over like a TV screen. That was it.

34:16John BellOkay.

34:16Jawad MirThen when he was talking to his parents and then the bugs attack Earth.

34:22John BellYeah. I think in this, I think initially they wanted to do some type of transport tunnel system that he would walk into.

34:32Jawad MirI think the budget probably

34:33John BellSee, this is his home transporter unit.

34:36Jawad MirThat is so, such a fascinating idea though.

34:41John BellPublic transport unit. Yeah.

34:46Jawad MirDoes this bring back any memories, you sitting down in a, on a desk and just...

34:52John BellOh, yeah. Yeah. Designing all this stuff. Rico's hand camera. Let's go into a different folder. See if I can find that, see if I can find that hand. These are some of that fort, some of the fort sketches.

35:27Jawad MirOh, that looks very kinda like, it gives me a feeling of, you know, during the British rule… ... Several hundred years ago. As well as the whole, Omaha Beach when the Nazis are waiting for the Allied forces in Saving Private Ryan.

35:48John BellYeah. You know, it was supposed to be a temporary structure, so that's, that's what I was thinking is they'd put this up in big panels. You know, the trucks would move in panels or... And then they'd put this fort up. But it would be very temporary. You know, these angled pieces up at the top would close down to protect the…

36:10John Bell... The soldiers more. Cannons obviously on the corners.

36:17Jawad MirGreat work, man.

36:18John BellOh, thanks. Let's see.

36:23Jawad MirCould be under graphics. I don't know.

36:26John BellYeah, it looked... There's some, there's a lot of stuff that we're, th… all that, '30s influence was definitely strong in these graphic designs. You know, all these, all these, propaganda posters. And then there's the start of the FedNet designs. There's the start of that eagle.

36:53Jawad MirYeah.

36:56John BellFedNet. Yeah.

37:03Jawad MirIt's always nice to see the evolution of your work, right? Whether you're editing a scene or writing a scene or designing, doing concept work, that how... And you have all these little examples of the first version, second version, third version. And…

37:19John BellYeah

37:19Jawad Mir... I do have that ability to do that. But to be able to go through from standpoint of, you know, like a longer feature, what the version one looked like, the second and third. It's a long time process. But, you know, with your work, you can just sort of look at it and it tells a beautiful story.

37:39John BellYeah, it's, it's nice when, you know, you throw up a bunch of different ideas and at least one of them resonates with the director. 'Cause there's... Yeah, I mean, we're looking at a whole bunch that never even got used, or if they did get used, it was at such a low, you know, it was so far in the background you didn't even see it.

38:06Jawad MirYeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, it does create some sort of a, it creates an environment for the film, right? Even though you don't see it, if it's not there. Like, sometimes you see films where the background is not as populated with design work as it should be.

38:25John BellYeah

38:25Jawad Mir... Detail, it's in the details, right? And those things are details. This is great, too.

38:30John BellYeah. That's what I was saying earlier, is it trying to bring s… a little depth and richness to the, to the world that you're in. That, I s… I always thought that the people who did set dressing for movies, I thought would be a really fascinating job because they're bringing in all the objects. You know, the art director and production designer, they'll create the s… the overall space.

38:51Jawad MirYeah.

38:51John BellBut then the set dresser comes in and puts, you know, what kind of radio would they have in the background? What kind of books would be on their bookshelf? And what kind of rug would they have? And I think all that stuff is really interesting.

39:07Jawad MirYeah. Oh, just look at that. That definitely looks like the one previous. That looks like the Nazis, for sure.

39:14John BellYeah.

39:15Jawad Mir100%.

39:18John BellYeah. Let's go to a different folder. I know that hand is in here somewhere. These are be, these are gonna be the ships and the troopers.

39:33Jawad MirOh, nice.

39:39John BellYeah, I did a lot of exploration with ship designs. Again, trying to keep that chunky, big blocky feel that it has.

39:48Jawad MirOh, I was just gonna say that. Yeah. I was just gonna say that. I mean, that literally looks like, ED-209, the front.

39:59John BellYeah. Kind of, yeah. The head of it.

40:01Jawad MirYeah.

40:02John BellI'm sure it was in there sublimin… subliminally somewhere in my head.

40:09Jawad MirYeah. For sure.

40:11John BellYeah. All different configurations.

40:14Jawad MirHow long does it take you to draw one of these? Or did back then, at least.

40:18John BellSomething like that. I don't know, a couple, few hours probably.

40:23Jawad MirReal… But, like, from scratch to finish that I'm seeing right now, that would take up to two hours?

40:28John BellMaybe, you know, to do all the marker work in there, probably another hour or so. I'd say three or four hours probably on a sketch.

40:36Jawad MirAnd back then, was it all pencil or was there any digital element to it?

40:41John BellNo. This is all markers and pencil on paper.

40:45Jawad MirThat's all. Beautiful.

40:46John BellI still have a lot of the originals.

40:50Jawad MirThat's crazy.

40:51John BellAnd I tried some on different paper.

40:55Jawad MirI really like that. I really do. That's great.

40:57John BellCreate a different mood. You're just trying to sell your idea to the, to the production designer and director.

41:07Jawad MirYeah.

41:08John BellInteriors.

41:15Jawad MirJeez. How many of you, how many of these did you probably do for the entire film? Over 100, easily?

41:23John BellNo. As far as ships, I mean, I think I'm showing you all the ships that I did.

41:29Jawad MirI mean, I mean everything that you have for Starship Troopers.

41:32John BellOh.

41:32Jawad MirLike, I saw a bunch of folders, right? So I'm assuming you did…

41:35John BellYeah.

41:35Jawad MirA couple hundred.

41:36John BellOh, yeah. There's, there's hundreds of drawings. Yeah. Hundreds. So yeah. I like this. I thought that one was really cool.

41:46Jawad MirYeah, that's really neat. That is really neat.

41:49John BellIt's real aggressive looking, modern looking. Yeah. Like I said…

41:54Jawad MirThat…

41:54John Bell... Some of them don't even get past this stage.

41:58Jawad MirDo you ever use any of your work that you did on a previous film that didn't make it anywhere for another project? Or did it become…

42:07John BellNo, I haven't, I haven't done that, because usually the films are, you know, each one has a different tone to it and a different story to tell.

42:19Jawad MirRight.

42:19John BellSo it's hard to, it's hard to really take one and plug it into another… you know, I might find a little bit of inspiration of one of your own.

42:28Jawad MirThat's, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Like, just drawing an inspiration out of it and doing something with that.

42:35John BellYeah. Oh, this was that first color sketch that I was telling you that I showed that John Davison said, "Hey, do you wanna design some stuff for the film?"

42:46Jawad MirYeah.

42:47John BellSo that was the first one…

42:48Jawad MirYeah

42:48John Bell... That I'd done.

42:50Jawad MirLovely.

42:51John Bell1995.

42:56Jawad MirA long time ago in a galaxy far away.

43:00John BellYeah. Troopers. Oh, there it is. There's one. I know I did a color version of his hand too.

43:19Jawad MirLook at that. Just love the details, man. Beautiful.

43:24John BellThanks. You know, this is when they were still gonna, have these jet propulsion things on their legs. They could lift off from the planet.

43:35Jawad MirYeah. And now that's a reality. I mean, there's all those jet propulsions…

43:40John BellYeah

43:40Jawad Mir... The US military uses and a bunch of private companies are offering it now. That's lovely.

43:45John BellSee, like this gun, this is, this is really designed from a movie camera.

43:51Jawad MirOh my God, of course. There's a ca… There's the boom, the shotgun and...

43:57John BellMicrophone. The lens.

44:01Jawad MirYep.

44:01John BellSome early helmet designs.

44:11Jawad MirThat feels like RoboCop.

44:13John BellIs that last one? This one.

44:15Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

44:16John BellYeah.

44:18Jawad MirI think it's that the covering of the eyes from one lens.

44:23John BellYeah. Carmen's flight suit. I had this book on '50s early, space and high altitude flight suits, and they had these cool details along the sides… ... Of the, of the, they're, what they called G-suits for compression.

44:48John BellAnyway, I liked the detail, so I included that on her sketch. Another camera inspired design.

45:08Jawad MirYou should publish a book.

45:13John BellYou think so?

45:13Jawad MirA lot of... I think so. A lot of people are doing it now.

45:16John BellYeah.

45:17Jawad MirI mean, I'm not talking just in Hollywood. Like, I know people who travel a lot, and they would cover a certain, like, either with, like, a certain topic or region or multiple, and they will just make a book out of it, get a book published out of it. And, I mean, yeah. I met an Uber driver just recently during COVID. He shot all over, Ontario in Canada, and he got a book published out of it, and it's on Amazon. So, I mean…

45:45John BellOh my gosh

45:45Jawad Mir... He's... So you should... Yeah, I mean, you've got some great stuff.

45:52John BellWell, thanks.

45:54Jawad MirYeah, I love it. I love it.

45:56John BellI think that's pretty much it.

45:58Jawad MirYeah, that's fine. No, this is great, man. Thank you so much for sharing it. I appreciate it.

46:02John BellYeah, you bet.

46:04Jawad MirIt certainly gives a visual representation of what you do as opposed to you and I just talking about it, so that's fantastic.

46:13John BellYeah. I mean, I could have opened up the storyboard folder, but that would take another hour.

46:20Jawad MirMaybe we can save that for another film for next time.

46:23John BellYeah, exactly. Exactly.

46:26Jawad MirGreat. And you're right now still at the same place working or any interest in films again?

46:32John BellYeah. I'm working, yeah, working at a Sony game studio up here in Oregon.

46:38Jawad MirYeah.

46:38John BellAnd, I got a nice, email a couple of days ago from Illumination.

46:44Jawad MirAh.

46:45John BellI don't know if that's gonna go anywhere. Fingers crossed. But it'd be fun to do work on another animated feature for sure.

46:52Jawad MirYou know, it's such a good thing that... Because I was just talking to somebody about it, and who used to work at DreamWorks. And right now, in my view, there's not a better studio making animated films other than Illumination.

47:09Jawad MirI think Pixar has lost its touch. DreamWorks has lost its touch. Well…

47:14John BellYeah

47:15Jawad Mir... It's just, I just feel everything that comes out of Illumination, it has that feel that is appealing to both kids and adults.

47:24John BellI like that. I have to disagree a little bit and say that, the Spider-Verse and Spider-Verse 2 movies…

47:31Jawad MirRight. You're right about that. I'm, yeah, absent.

47:34John BellI felt once I saw those, like, it made it, all the other animated films feel very old.

47:41Jawad MirThat's true too. That's a good point because... And I'm really looking forward to t… Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which is getting incredible reviews.

47:49John Bellhuh.

47:49Jawad MirIt has a similar kind of a feel of Spider-Verse. You're right. I shouldn't have inc… should have included Spider-Verse th… as an exception. Because, yeah, that new animation style and then one film that DreamWorks did last year, Puss in Boots 2.

48:03Jawad MirIt actually follows the same technique as Spider-Verse. It has that comic book feel. The art…

48:09John BellYeah

48:09Jawad Mir... Kind of popping out. So I guess the bottom line is that computer animation, I think people are sort of tired of seeing now. I think we're at that stage that happened with Toy Story in the '90s, and now we're going in that mixed kind of a feel between computer animation and traditional animation.

48:26John BellYeah. Yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the next level is after this. You know?

48:34Jawad MirYeah

48:34John BellHow are, how's it gonna evolve beyond that…

48:38Jawad MirSo…

48:38John Bell... You know, when people finally go, "You know what? I'm kinda tired of that Spider-Verse look. Give me something new and different." What's that gonna be, right?

48:47Jawad MirYeah. No, Spider-Verse was amazing. I actually was wa… I just watched, the very first Spider-Man movie, by Sam Raimi. I don't know if you remember… ... I ever told you. I'm actually speaking to Don Burgess, who's the DP on it, right after I'm, I'm done speaking with you. And it was such... I'm not a crazy fan of superhero movies except the Nolan Batman trilogy, but that movie was so grounded in a sense that it was just, it just revolved around a guy, a friend, a girlfriend, a guy, my friend's father who's the…

49:20John BellYeah

49:20Jawad Mir... Nemesis. Such a simple plot. There was no… I mean, there were special effects and everything, but it just kinda kept very grounded, and that's missing from movies nowadays.

49:31John BellAbsolutely. I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. I would like to see an animated Batman movie or an animated Superman movie. You know? Take those comic book icons and keep it in the 2D…

49:51Jawad MirYeah

49:51John Bell... Animated style.

49:52Jawad MirI agree.

49:52John BellI don't wanna see another guy in a rubber suit. I just…

49:55Jawad MirYeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, do you remember the Bat… Batman the Animated Series in the '90s?

50:01John BellYeah.

50:02Jawad MirI mean, that to me still is, like, the animation, the shadows, the tone, the darkness. It was a very dark series. Like, it was not for kids, you know?

50:13John BellYeah.

50:13Jawad MirAnd it still lives up to this day. It was incredible. I hope they do that. I hope they, a trend starts with animation stuff now, a tradit… like, traditional animation, similar to what Spider-Verse is doing and computer mix, comes back into the superhero realm because that I wouldn't mind seeing.

50:30John BellYes. Yes. I agree. I agree.

50:33Jawad MirGreat, man. Well, thank you so much for joining me, man. I appreciate it. Hopefully we can…

50:37John BellThank you

50:38Jawad Mir... Chat more in the future.

50:39John BellYeah. Well, I…

50:40Jawad MirThanks for sharing your wonderful work.

50:42John BellYou said you're gonna be talking to Don Burgess. I, he won't remember me, but I remember working with him and Bob Zemeckis on Contact.

50:52Jawad MirI spoke to him. I've already spoken to him three times. This is my fourth conversation with him. We've, we talked. We had, did a whole episode on Contact. I'll send you a link. But I'll bring it up. We're talking about Spider-Man. But mainly this is the first time we're talking, I, with him, I'm talking with him without Zemeckis' film involved, right? So it's gonna be interesting.

51:12John BellYeah

51:12Jawad Mir... Because he's still, he's still doing work for Zemeckis. He's just, he just finished a film with Zemeckis just now.

51:17John BellInteresting.

51:17Jawad MirBut I'll, I'll mention to him. Yeah, I'll mention to him…

51:19John BellYeah

51:19Jawad Mir... For sure.

51:21John BellAll right, man.

51:22Jawad MirGreat. Thank you so much, buddy. Appreciate it.

51:24John BellYeah. Have a good weekend.

51:26Jawad MirYou, too. Take care. Bye-bye.

51:27John BellAll righty. Bye-bye.

51:29Jawad MirI hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.