'Beckham', Cinematographer, Tim Cragg

0:06Tim CraggSunday morning, New York. Well done.

0:09Jawad MirSunday morning in Toronto.

0:11Tim CraggOh, Toronto, even nicer. Okay. Nice. I've done a lot of work…

0:15Jawad MirThat's good talking to me. Oh, have you?

0:17Tim CraggYeah. Yeah, I used to work, I used to do a lot of horror stuff in, and we would shoot it in Hamilton. I would stay in Tor… I would do three, four months a year and bust out to Hamilton and then bust back and then... Oh.

0:30Jawad MirHopefully it wasn't in winter in Hamilton.

0:35Tim CraggI've done winter.

0:38Jawad MirYeah.

0:38Tim CraggI've done winter and I've had scenes as if we're in, I don't know, you know, Florida in summer and, you know, just like, oh.

0:47Jawad MirYeah. Well, I mean, Hamilton gets a little more colder than some parts of Toronto.

0:54Tim CraggYeah

0:54Jawad Mir... That's more on the west side and also on the northern side, obviously. But good to have you. Thank you so much for joining. Appreciate it.

1:02Tim CraggExcellent

1:03Jawad Mir... You know, just on a beginning note, I came fam… I became familiar through… to your work through Beckham, and, Encounter, something I was supposed to see, but I hadn't had chance. I'm a huge Spielberg fan. I'm a huge, you know, aliens and UFO and all that fun stuff. So, it's on my to watch list.

1:24Tim CraggExcellent.

1:24Jawad MirBut just wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed Beckham, even though I'm not even remotely a soccer fan.

1:32Tim CraggLikewise

1:32Jawad Mir... And one of the things I loved about it the most among, you know, besides the story and everything that actually kind of stayed with me, was the way it was shot, especially the interviews. To me, it looked like, and you tell me if I'm wrong, a lot of the interviews, if not all of them, were s… some were not on sticks. They were more or less handheld or a shoulder mount. Is that a correct assumption?

2:03Tim CraggNo tripod was used in any of it.

2:06Jawad MirYeah.

2:06Tim CraggIn any of the film. You know, so Fisher Stevens, the director…

2:11Jawad MirYeah

2:11Tim Cragg... Had made a movie called Palmer with Justin Timberlake.

2:16Jawad MirOkay

2:16Tim Cragg... Featured Justin. And I watched that. You know, I was told, I was sort of introduced, through Ventureland to,.. It's actually really funny, the s… sort of founder of Ventureland, John Battsek, a very famous sort of producer, phoned me up and said, and I've, and I know John and I had done a few other projects with him, The Deepest Breath, and he used to work at Passion, and I've done a couple of films at Passion.

2:42Tim CraggAnd he said, "There's this guy," and I know you're probably not into, soccer, football, but there's this man called Beckham. He's kind of like a fashion icon and very much an icon out there, and we're gonna do, be doing like a biopic series on him and are you interested? And I was like, "Of course, I know Beckham." But he sort of said, Fisher, "Fisher Stevens is directing this." And Fisher's obviously an actor, you know, quite a well-known actor and…

3:08Jawad MirYeah

3:08Tim Cragg... A documentary maker. He got an Oscar for The Cove as a producer. You know, so sort of…

3:14Jawad MirOh, he did The Cove. Okay.

3:16Tim CraggYeah, top table stuff, you know. And so I looked at some of his work and a lot of his work has this, I call it a deconstructed style in that it is anti-style in a way. There's not much production put into it. You know, it does, obviously there is production, but you don't feel the production. You're not swallowed up into production. And, yeah, so what the starting block very much was Palmer as a, as an aesthetic quality, and is all handheld and slightly like a nervous camera, you know, sort of on the edge. You know, maybe like an action film would have, you know, a thriller. So, yeah. Which is unusual, and it was an absolute killer on the interviews. I mean, we went through quite a few. At first, what happened is I used, I mean, we were a small team, I used the second AC to be the other camera, two cameras in the interview. Always an 85/35. I was on the 85. I had a focus puller. Guy, the second AC was always on a 35 mil. Fisher likes the eye line to be right in between two cameras, so he literally sits in between.

4:23Tim CraggSo you sit next to each other, or you stand or however we were shooting it, and Fisher's right in between, like crossing the line between the two cameras. And, you know, and then, and sometimes he would even bump us if we were too steady. He would like knock us. We'd be like, "Oh, sh…" So, but that's very much his style. And also Netflix, you know, we had a discussion with, Gabe at Netflix a while before this, and they sort of said, you know, "It is such a, Beckham is such a, well-known personality. He's so produced, extremely handsome." You know, "And what we don't wanna do is make this feel,.. W… we, you know, we wanna make this feel really authentic and honor, almost like you shot it in the '90s." And we spoke about potentially shooting it, you know, I said, because I used to obviously shoot documentaries in the '90s, and, most of those were shot in Super 16 and they had that sort of style. And actually Netflix were, we went down that line for a few weeks of shooting this on film and then we decided that, 'cause there's so mu… you know, it just wouldn't, just…

5:34Jawad MirOf course. Wouldn't cost.

5:36Tim CraggYou know. Cost and also just restriction, was less the cost 'cause we had a decent budget and the cost would be crazy, but it would be, I just said, "Look, if we shoot film, we don't want the restrictions of a 10-minute load." You know? You know what I mean? That's, that for an interview, people are not used to that now.

5:52Jawad MirYeah.

5:52Tim CraggAnd we do that, but 10 minutes is, w… we run on a card for an hour. So going back to your question, the second AC, I went through a few second ACs 'cause they couldn't handle holding the camera. You know, we had sort of, easy rigs, tried various things, but they couldn't, they physically couldn't do it. And it was, it was literally, 'cause they would go on, for some of them, four or five hours. And, you know, the c… the ARRI camera is heavy with all the…

6:17Tim Cragg... Stuff on it, all the extra stuff. And it was, it was, obviously they're not, the second assistant is not trained as being a… You know, like a, like an operator, so they don't have…

6:26Jawad MirYeah

6:26Tim Cragg... That sort of physical stamina. And it was, it was eventually became a problem. I had to get rid of a few people and, you know, and we eventually got other, like other op… you know, operators, full-blown operators and they could do it. We, you know, but it was tough. It was a hard... They offered us massages after every day, which we didn't take up. But, you know, the production company were really aware that it was a style that we wanted to go for, and obviously there's been lots of interest from other people saying, "Oh, I really like that style." And I'm like, "Yo, good luck." Good luck, like, you know, hand-holding a cinema camera for... It's not about the weight of the camera. I can do handheld or Ronin the whole day if I'm moving and there's break, and especially if you're moving. You know, I l… I love that. I've, I've, I love…

7:12Jawad MirYeah

7:12Tim Cragg... That energy. But to be still…

7:15Jawad MirYeah

7:15Tim Cragg... You just, you start to realize you've got all these knots and pains that are just excruciating, and you literally… I would be looking at the card and I would know the storyline and just go like, "Oh, God, I've gotta concentrate on something because I'm in so much pain."

7:30Jawad MirI bet.

7:31Tim CraggTerrible.

7:32Jawad MirNo, but it paid…

7:33Tim CraggYeah

7:33Jawad Mir... It paid off. One of the things it reminded me of the most was, and that's among many other things that I loved about Breaking Bad, I don't know if you've ever seen Breaking Bad.

7:42Tim CraggOf course. Yep.

7:43Jawad MirA lot of it was handheld. I mean, the scene… And compared to Better Call Saul, Better Call Saul was very cinematic, very kinda like locked shots, you know? Longer lens, wider lens. But with Breaking Bad, because of the way this, that character was, he was just chaos, right? He was all over the place, and that pulls you in. People don't realize it, and I think that's what pulled me in Beckham. Among the story, I mean, I'm not, you know, putting away the story or the direction or anything, but that handheld thing made them look, to me, at the same level as an ordinary citizen would as opposed to a celebrity.

8:23Tim CraggAgreed.

8:24Jawad MirThat really did wonders. I mean, I don't know how many people outside the production world would notice that, but, you know

8:31Tim CraggDo you know what thing…

8:32Jawad Mir... Being in front of…

8:33Tim CraggThe, rather than the aesthetic of it sort of feeling you, which you're completely right, that did sort of make you feel like they were everyday people and what it did is with the whole dogma style, which is very much Fisher, it meant that they didn't even know when we were recording. So it meant that the crossover between we would arrive at people's houses, you know, normally we completely own locations, and I choose the location and we tent it out and I light it and then we bring in the, and we make it look like it's their home or their living room. But we've been there for ages. They don't want us setting up for hours and hours, and they walk into a dark space that's lit and they feel e… extremely intimidated. And Fisher was really clear. He said, as an actor, if… You know, 'cause I, you know, we wanted the sort of canned style, but I still wanted to light it. I wanted to light it more than it was lit. And I... It, for me shooting it, was a real, self-lesson in my own criticism 'cause the whole time, other than the pain, I'm going, "Ah, I could make this look so much better.

9:35Tim CraggI could light this. I could control this. I could put that there. I could give him a little edge light. I could give him the eye light." I, you know, but it was, we were given very short time to set up, no blacking out. Fisher was like, "As an actor, if I walk into set and it's dark, I don't like it. I feel hemmed in, and I wanna arrive at their door. I want you on a single camera to be ready just to roll. Just whatever. I don't care if you pick me up, if… Just roll. We'll get a bit of sound, even if it's the camera mic and the sound recorders can just swing in the boom, but I want this. I want, I want to capture the off-cuffness and the casualness of people." And even in our interview setups that, you know, so we would do that. We would film, and then they would all go like, "Oh, no, are you guys filming already? Oh, should have we started?" And then we'd be like, "Yeah, don't worry. We're, we're… It's all..." And Fisher's character is very, just very laid back, cool guy. You know what I mean? He's not, he's not like, "I've got my questions." He's just like, "Hey, man, what the hell's happening?" And super cool. So y… you know, as a DP, I very… I work on many projects in a year, probably about six, seven, eight films.

10:38Tim CraggYou know, and I have to very quickly assess the director's personality, understand are they gonna be married to a style that we're gonna create. Are they gonna be good with that s… that, like, or can they wait four hours for me to light, or do they just want to just rock and roll and that's really gonna get the best out of them as a director? And Fisher, I mean, I, couple of calls, you know, a few, I think one or two meetings, I was like, "I know exactly how this needs to be shot. We've gotta be run and gun, freestyle, slightly punk, deconstructed. If I get a light in shot, doesn't matter if it goes out of focus." You know, we shot on a 35s, fully wide open with, on the large format it's like shooting an F1 point, F0.9. It's unbelievably s… shallow focus. And the whole time I was thinking, "I can't believe I've gone for this look. This is gonna be, it's out of focus. It's bloody handheld, wobbly." The lighting's kinda rough. It's like, it… we've committed and we're stuck with this, and we're gonna finish the whole thing and then Netflix are gonna see it and say, "We don't like this."

11:44Tim CraggLike, "What have you done?" Or Beckham's gonna see it and go like, you know. 'Cause Beckham had a few rules. Only shoot my left-hand side, and Fisher was like, "Shoot to his left-hand side." I don't like seeing any mess. We messed everything up. You know what I mean? He was like, it, like, put all your cables, a whole lot of shit, move his sh… move his shoes around and shoot into the side. He really controls people in saying, "This is..." You know, his, the assistant would sort of say, "This is the protocol for Beckham. This is what he wants." And F… and I said to Fisher, "Hey, I don't know. Do you want me to take this seriously? I mean, I thought we were, like, making this with Beckham. I can't believe we've been handed a..." You know, like, and then he was like, "No, let's wind it. Let's see how much we can push him." And Beckham never said anything, only right at the very last day he said, "You guys… You filmed into my other side. You know what I mean? It's like that was a challenge for me, and I, and I knew I was, by not resisting it, I was meeting you on an equal level of honesty, of saying like, "We're making this together. I respect Fisher and myself and the team, John," and you know, everybody that he ch… not chosen me.

12:44Tim CraggAnd obviously part of it, you know, I guess. And I trust your judgment, so whatever you're doing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go with it. And credit to him, you know. I mean, you know, 'cause that's a, that's, that's brave. You know, these guys are used to having quite a lot of control and, you know, he never had any makeup, never had any, you know, you know, Victoria had, some makeup people around.

13:10Jawad MirOf course.

13:10Tim CraggAnd David would sort of comment on that. And yeah, you know. And I don't, I don't think it ended up in the series, but there was one scene where he said, "Go on, pan around and like sh… show how many people she's got," and I've got nobody. This is, I'm completely bare, exposed, you know, just, you know. Very incredible person actually. I was really, very impressed. You know, we all were. He remembered everybody's name in the crew, you know, which, and the crew changes, you know. Which is…

13:39Jawad MirYeah

13:40Tim Cragg... You know, that, people don't have to. And if he had a coffee or we filmed him something, he would always make everybody else. If he was like cooking, I don't know, some breakfast one day, he was like, "You guys want something?" You know, no, people don't have to do that. I've worked with lots of…

13:54Jawad MirYeah

13:54Tim Cragg... Superstars and they don't. You know, they give what they have to give and so it felt really genuine, you know. Which was nice. Makes it easier, you know. Yeah.

14:06Jawad Mir100%. There's something that needs to be said about, you know, intimidating talent, whether it's an ordinary person or a celebrity. You know, one thing that I realized, and I always have this conversation with my DP as well, one thing that I realized maybe five, six years ago, and even though I was doing it for about 10 years, for about five, six years, you know, as part of my other business w… we did weddings all over the world, and they were very much candid. And one thing that I always took pride in, and people used to say, that we never noticed you, and I like to be invisible. And that really puts the subject, no matter who the hell they are, at ease. Even celebrities get nervous as hell, you know.

14:57Tim CraggOf course.

14:57Jawad MirThere's a camera rolling around them, and that element sort of transferred for me into documentary filmmaking, and I'll have a discussion with my DP sometimes, "Well, we need to do this one." I'm like, "Yeah, but if we do this they might get intimidated," you know. Or for example, just two weeks ago I was on a set and, I had a discussion with, not two weeks ago, last week, I had a discussion with the boom operator. He says, "Should we put a lav on as a backup, versus the boom?" I'm like, "He doesn't feel that he will appreciate it, just go with the boom." 'Cause they start, you know, getting into... I, even though that's a necessary thing, it's a backup, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it, people get really intimidated with a camera. It's not easy, 10 people or 5 people or 20 people just focused right on you. Celebrities maybe can take it to a certain level, but…

15:46Tim CraggNo

15:46Jawad Mir... Credit goes…

15:47Tim CraggThey don't. So we had a stripped down set. So we made sure we had a very limited time and we sort of had very much a system. And I, we had a lot of days on this, 89, 90 days. Documentary days, so for parts. There's quite a lot of filming. And we made sure that our sort of media village, you know, couple of execs, you know, people like that, focus pullers, assistants, sound, everybody was in a room that no… they never, ever saw. We wirelessed that. They never came through and the only co… what the contributors saw would be Fisher, myself, and the other operator. And it would just be three of us in the room, and they would not be aware that there were monitors and headsets and notes coming back to us live on set and all that. But that was really important in us. You know, we, the story producer on this, Billie Shepherd, who was amazing, sort of she would go and meet the people, sort of do a little pre, you know, pre-little scout at their location, and then very much feedback. "Guys, I think we should be in this room, and this is where we can set up, you know, set up the village, and we'll just put a floppy up there and just, they won't know we're there or won't... You know, we'll just hold that down and minimize the amount of cars."

16:59Tim CraggSort of car sharing so they didn't feel they were like, you know, 20 cars arriving. But yeah, it's very important. And, it's amazing actually on scripted films where obviously there's a big crew, how, you know, obviously people aren't in eye line, but you are aware of a lot of production, you know.

17:18Jawad MirYeah.

17:18Tim CraggAnd, actors are amazing that they can just do it, you know. I guess they're getting paid. But you're right. I mean, you know, in the doc stuff you gotta be... And this one was very, you know, it was, yeah, it sort of needed to feel like that. It needed, you know, 'cause they were all sort of superstars in their own way in the film, you know. You know, or links have. They weren't family and all that, so, you know. I didn't really know most of the footballers. They would have to sort of, you know, I just didn't, I just don't have a history with soccer.

17:42Jawad MirYeah.

17:43Tim CraggI don't. I, and done, I did a film on Messi. I've done a few footballers. I did Messi, I did, a feature on Me… a series on Messi, on Amazon, and a feature for Figo. He's a famous footballer. A sort of…

17:59Jawad MirI've heard of him

17:59Tim Cragg... That's on Netflix. Yeah. So I've sort of suddenly I've got all these football people that I've done, and I'm like, "God, I don't even know anything about the cups or..." you know.

18:08Jawad MirWell, you got pigeonholed.

18:10Tim CraggExactly.

18:11Jawad MirThis guy, this guy makes, shoots all the football players or soccer players.

18:15Tim CraggExactly.

18:15Jawad MirLet's get him.

18:18Tim CraggI think they like it 'cause I'm never, ever, I'll never be sick of fan calls. So they're like, "Oh, we're gonna be shooting with," I don't know, you know…

18:24Jawad MirYeah

18:24Tim Cragg... Beckham. Oh, I know I know Beckham, but I'm, I'm often like, okay, I'm like, okay, I don't know what they did, you know. They're like, "Oh, come meet this coach." I'll be like, "Who are they? I don't even know the team." So I think in that way it's…

18:35Jawad MirIt's funny you mention, it's funny you mention that. I've, you know, the idea of celebrities, for example, anybody, like sports, films, whatever, musicians, because they're so much used to all that attention and fame, as much as they may like it certain times or in the beginning at least, they crave for that moment where nobody says, "Oh my God, it's this person." They l… they just desperately want that. They just wanna be treated like an ordinary individual. And…

19:09Tim CraggYeah

19:09Jawad Mir... And one of the things that I loved about Beckham the series, I cannot believe the, what the hell that guy, that guy went through. I mean, all the stuff, like with the crowd booing him and showing his character. And you guys really did a fantastic job in capturing, and that comes because you made him at ease even though he's a celebrity, capturing his real emotions. Like, there are just some, so many vulnerable moments, not from the past footage, in that moment when you're speaking to him. It's, it makes him so much more human than, you know, I have seen in any other celebrity's life. At, a lot of ti… a lot of time that happens when you look back at someone's career when they've passed away or, you know, they're in their 80s or 90s, but this guy is still, what, in his late 40s or early 50s, and for him to be at that level, so vulnerable, it goes to all of your credit for you being able to pull that off, because that's not something people do very easily.

20:14Tim CraggThank you. Yeah. You know, I think it was part of the approach helped that, you know, in that we created a, you know, most of the sort of intimate revealing, interviews with David happened in his den, which is a little, space he's got in London. And it's a tiny room. You'd never, ever choose to film in there. It's tiny. I mean, literally it's his den with all his caps and all that. And he said, "This is the place I feel safest. This is my space. This is my sort of log cabin, shed," or whatever. So we were like, "Okay, that's where we're filming." And I went in there and I was like, "Oh my God, I can't believe this," like, "Why does it have to be the smallest goddamn room?" But you know, so we started off that. Obviously, that's a safe space for him. We then had obviously a small, minimized crew, you know, you know, three of us in the room.

20:59Jawad MirRight.

20:59Tim CraggMinimal lighting. Couple lights, like a key light and maybe a little top light and a light and a few lights in the background. But n… I normally have about 35, 40 lights in an interview. You know, I light things. So for me it was, like, no lighting. But the, a f… there were a few lights up, three or four lights up. But really, I think, I think what happened is that David had decided, and because he is such a, this is sort of his character, he had decided he was gonna give it everything. And I think we were just sort of fortunate enough to sort of create the theater, the stage for that to happen. But I think he's a, you know, I think he's cla… you know, he's super clever, super bright. He knows that in order for, you know, The Last Dance was something that all these sports people look at as a documentary as being…

21:47Jawad MirYeah

21:47Tim Cragg... Massively successful. In spreading their brand, their name, just everything, and creating a legacy for them, you know? They want to leave behind a legacy, and they want to leave behind a legacy that's not a sort of a, you know, a cabinet of trophies, which would be so boring, but a legacy of a human being, father, husband, you know, football player, son. You know, very much about fathers and sons. And I think David was, had been clever enough to sort of go, "Shit, if I do a really honest," you know, what do viewers want? They want, they wanna see the re… the un… you know, they wanna feel like I've shot this on my own phone and I've just gone in there. And I think he gave us to that. You know what I mean? I think we as had created it, didn't kill it.

22:31Tim CraggBut he also had decided, you know, and Fisher's sort of, you know, we had 15 days with David, so, you know, and his days I think were 11:00 till 3:00, so not a full day. And he wouldn't stop for lunch. David did not eat lunch, which I, the whole time I'd be like, "Aren't you hungry?" He was like, "God, can't we stop?" Got this heavy camera. I'm like, "Surely it's lunch. Please, let's eat." But I think…

22:56Jawad MirI think authen… we live in a day and age where, I mean, if you look at YouTube and everything, all these YouTubers or Instagrammers or TikTokers, the au… the authenticity sells. People like authenticity. Even if you hate the character, people still love the authenticity. And for me, o… o… one thing I really would love to know, I'm kinda gonna s… go segue here from Beckham. I'm always intrigued about everybody's journey into the world of film, how this started, where they, what the paths they have taken, the mistakes they have made to get to where they are. If I was to ask you to go back the first time, the first day you realized there is a art form called filmmaking, and you want to be behind the camera, a cameraman, a DP, cinematographer, whatever you wanna call it, what would that be?

23:54Tim CraggI had a, I, it's, I w… am extremely dyslexic, so I did very badly at school and did not get into university. And I wanted to study film at university, not because I was hugely interested in film, but I knew I did not wanna do an office job. That was my motivation. I sort of, I'd had a camera and I sort of did a bit of photography work, was interested. But I started DJing in 1986 when nobody was DJing, on turntables, and my love was mixing, DJing, sort of hip hop music and cutting and scratching and all that. And I then got a job as an, as an assistant editor, and very quickly became an editor and won a few awards editing because I had this sort of, a, I sort of had understood movement a bit and I had a rhythm and I could cut and so I got a job as a assistant editor and very, like six months later was an, was an editor. And this was pre… This was film days and then went into n… sort of like a non-linear hybrid system. It was pre-Avid and all that sort of controllers, but AB roll editing.

24:54Tim CraggAnd I did promos and music videos, and I cut these for till I was about 21. And I would start to, and I was, and I, and I was doing well and I just started to feel locked in a dark room, and I started to be very interested in the offcuts a… around the, you know, seeing the camera coming up and that. And just the offcuts off set, I'd be like, "Oh my God, this looks r… I wish they would show me more of this." And I thought, "Actually, I don't wanna use these images more, I just wanna see this more." And so I sort of, I started to assist and I, and I got out there and I s… I started to freelance editing and it s… was a camera assistant for about eight months, and then I thought, I absolutely love this, and then I started getting my own DP jobs really young. Like super young. 20, 21 and a half, 22 or something. And I realized I could do it, you know, and I could shoot, and I think I've always done this. I am less interested in the beauty of a single image, although I find that obviously there is something very satisfying for my brain to work something within a composition and own it.

26:00Tim CraggAnd, you know, and that I like. And I do a lot of stills photography, a huge amount of stills for large format and medium format. That's my real passion. But I, it… it's about storytelling and I, it's, it's the collective, it's, it's all the images and the whole story that I'm really interested in, and I think that comes from editing. And most directors I work with are always v… I'm always about the sequence, the story, the tone of it, where we are in the landscape of emotion in the film rather than like, you know, the specifics of how y… you know, how the spec… you know, being so nailed in on the actual look of it. I can sort of get that and we work that out. But to me it's the, it's the rhythm of the film and all of that, and I think that's from editing. And also shooting, especially in a doc, like I know kind of how I would edit it, so I'm shooting it going like, "I would use this." And I always get, you know, emails back from the editor going like, "Oh my God, thank you."

26:54Jawad MirYeah.

26:54Tim Cragg"You've given me everything." You know what I mean? It's like, you've covered it because I've thought, shit, I'm in the edit, I'm cutting it. I would love to have this shot, you know? And not just coverage, sort of, you know, hopefully done in a, in a, in an interesting way. But Beckham had less of that. You know, it was more standard sort of interviews, a bit of B-roll and then archive. But something like Encounters or other films I've done that are, you know, the whole thing is sort of, a visual, it's all about the tonality of storytelling and, you know. So editing, which is odd, you know? And I think, I think every DP should be an editor. I really do. I think editing is storytelling. It's piecing and it's also piecing together the things that don't work. So as an editor I could really work out, you know, and, you know, like, oh my God, I should have, you know, they should've got that and why didn't they get that? And you know, you become, you know, it, you know... Editing's like creating the ingredients for the meal and, you know, it's good as a DP to provide that ingredients and the richer ingredients rather than like, oh, there's loads of beauty shots, but there's nothing that actually has, you know, sort of the storytelling beats that actually move it forward or give it variety and, you know.

27:59Tim CraggYeah. How about yourself? What are you? You a direct… editor? Are you, what are you? You're, what's your... You're a filmmaker, a director. You make films.

28:07Jawad MirYes. So I've gone through the same journey as you have. I have shot tons. I have edited tons.

28:16Tim CraggOkay.

28:16Jawad MirI've edited two f… three feature docs, four feature docs. And I've shot two of my own documentaries mostly. And directed obviously. But I'm at that point now where as much as I love editing, it's that idea…

28:37Tim CraggYeah

28:37Jawad Mir... Of sitting in that room, and I think what happened was I had that transformation during COVID because I was simultaneously, just before COVID started in 20, think it was 2018, late, mid to late 2018, I was somehow got involved into directing two feature documentaries simultaneously, and they were gonna both span over two and a half years of time. And then COVID happened, and the last act of both documentaries still needed to be shot. So we did everything remotely and all that stuff. But then I, because everybody was, you know, worried about what the hell is gonna happen with the world and everything, I became so involved in editing both of them, and they were both human rights and, you know, really heavy subjects. It took a real big toll on me. And I got completely f… you know, I put together like rough cut and I wasn't really happy with, and I brought in an editor and I'm like, "That's it.

29:41Jawad MirI'm, like I don't mind editing things here and there, like, you know, small stuff, short stuff, but I can't, I can't do this and I need to focus on directing." Because that's something I've always wanted to do. You know, just on the journey you end up, and I'm glad that I did all these things. I'm glad I've shot over God knows how many number, hundred of number of days of, you know, production. I've edited how many thousands of hours of footage or even more. But it's just the directing thing that I didn't realize that how much I enjoyed, even though I was doing it, just talking to people. You know? It's, being a director I think, whether you're doing a documentary or a narrative, you're literally their sh… a shrink. You're literally talking to a character or individual at their deepest level. And sometimes that, I think people who enjoy that, it's also about trying to self-heal something that, you know, we all go through stuff in life, eh, each and every one of us.

30:42Jawad MirSo it's, I enjoy that a lot and I really do appreciate… The art of engagement with people and just talking to them on one-on-one and getting them to feel comfortable and getting them to talk about their vulnerabilities. And it's just, yeah, that just, to answer your question, I mean, it's a little long one, but that's, that's pretty much where I am right now.

31:06Tim CraggAnd I can see you have that quality. Do you know what I mean? You're a very easy person to talk to, so, you know, thank you for that.

31:12Jawad MirThank you.

31:12Tim CraggIt's, something that, you know, David would bring up, because David's never had any therapy, and which, you know, we, I don't know, we just found it slightly bizarre. But I don't know, just as in the team, you know, sort of like, "Wow, you've never had... Like, you've been through a lot, and just, you know, you're somebody that trained." You know what I mean? It's like you tr… you've got lots of trainers and help and y… you know, you're an extreme human being. Surely part of the mind and, you know, just all of that is also part of that training. But it did mean that he found, and Victoria, both of them, and they mentioned this, found it to be like a therapy session. They actually found that…

31:55Jawad MirYeah

31:56Tim Cragg... After they would talk, and then in the evening they would sort of connect and cry and be, "Oh my God, you know, Fish brought this up, and I can't believe..." You know, yeah, and we were like, "Oh my God, shit, man, you guys need to go to therapy too." We all need some therapy, you know, like... But you're right. But that, you know, not all directors are like that. I, you know, I work with a lot of different directors, and some directors are extremely visual and in a way they are, acutely visual at the cost of maybe emotion.

32:26Tim CraggAnd I quite like working with them too, you know what I mean? They're different films. They're often easier for me to shoot…

32:30Jawad MirOf course

32:30Tim Cragg... Because they're like, "Yeah, look at the location. It's amazing." I'm like, "Oh my God, it's perfect. Look at the symmetry, geometry." You know, it's like, oh my, we're in, we're in sort of autistic, you know, we're in heaven of, like, perfection, but they can be dead, you know, you know? But they are satisfying technically to make. And then, but there's nothing better than, you know, being, you know, in the close proximity, especially as a g… you know, as a DP, as a cameraman, where we, you know, where people are really opening themselves up and are extremely emotional and I sort of, you know, I say to people, and Netflix have been very good on this, that almost every single day that I'm filming, if we're doing an interview, the person we're filming is going to be emotional. They're never, ever a factual person. It's never just about exposition or information.

33:18Tim CraggSo every single day we're all... I'm going through with my team, like an emotional sort of like where you're close enough and somebody's telling you this, whatever the story is, that you are also moved. You know, we may also cry or, you know, you know, with David telling us those stories…

33:31Jawad MirOf course

33:31Tim Cragg... We're, we're all balling because we're in the... And there is something kind of like, there is something quite em… emotionally draining on taking on a project and more so with editors. But as a DP and certainly my assistants and all that, we go like, "Oh shit, this job's about..." You know, do a lot of true crime, for instance, or, you know, there's just, it's an emotional, there's, the, you give yourself emotionally, too, and you have to, you're in the close proximity of people, and you're moved, and that can be tiring, you know? And Netflix actually offer out, therapy sessions. They actually say if anybody wants any therapy, I think you're given six sessions, and you can clock in and nobody has to know about it. There's no thing. But if you feel you would like to speak to somebody... And I think, you know, I haven't had any other streamer, you know, and I've done, you know, Auschwitz film, you know, like very heavy films and…

34:24Jawad MirYeah

34:24Tim Cragg... More for editors. I hear a lot of editors actually have to take a break from editing just because they are, especially if it's a serial killer or some sort of really dark story, they are drowning in this darkness, you know?

34:37Jawad MirYeah.

34:37Tim CraggTough. Tough.

34:39Jawad MirIt is. It is. I mean…

34:41Tim CraggBut that, we should, we should accept that, and they should be given, you know what I mean? They should be like, "Oh, you're doing a true, you know, true crime," then the editor should get, like, three weeks paid leave or, you know, you know what I mean? There should be a break, or there should be some recognition for whilst it makes entertainment for people, there's actually, it's people are really listening to stuff and watching stuff in the edit that nobody's ever seen, that they're having to censor and, you know. And I think w… we're at a stage where we don't recognize actually that has a emotional impact, and it is just a job, you know? And whilst they are, you know, being creative, they should be, we should look, we should look after that. You know, we should give them whatever it is needed. But, you know, we're, we're ha… we're not there yet, but people are starting to talk about it. They are starting, especially in box, hugely emotional, you know, everybody gets moved, you know, and they have to be. If you are emotional and sensitive, you're gonna pick up on that, you know, and you hope you are if you're doing documentaries, that you are…

35:33Jawad MirYeah

35:33Tim Cragg... Acutely sensitive. You know, you have to be.

35:36Jawad MirWell, I think storytellers in any form, whether you are a DP, director, writer, you know, sound, whatever, we are deeply very emotional in people. I mean, we may not admit it, but I think, not that o… others are not, but art is a form of emotion. Like, it is, you know, whether you see a painting and it evokes an emotion, you know? And going through editing, especially of, you know, heavy subjects, like you have these posters here behind me, In Search of My Sister and Citizen Amorya, it really takes a toll on you. And going back to what you were saying about therapy and Beckham, I think there's this stigma, still attached to therapy. Yeah, I always thought it was very more so in the Asian and the South Asian culture, but I think it's everywhere because people, especially from people from our generation, you know, because that's what we have grown up with.

36:37Jawad MirLike, what, why do you need therapy? You know, there must be something wrong with you. But now it's completely opposite on the other end where, like, you must get therapy. There's something wrong with you. But I think that's what Beckham probably never did, is think he just did not want to deal with his past. And he just found this o… opportunity because… When people are on camera, even though they know you know, from, because they have agreed to be on camera, they don't know you at the level they would know their friends because their friends and family members will judge them. But, you know, the fact that he put this on camera for the whole world to judge, is incredible. I mean, I have so much respect for the guy now. I just used to know David Beckham a soccer player, but I cannot believe the stuff that he's gone through. And one thing I wa… I loved about the, there was a scene which was in the trailer, too, and I would love to know. I was having this conversation two, three days ago with somebody. We were talking about Beckham, and one guy said this was staged, and I'm like, "It didn't look staged to me."

37:37Jawad MirThat whole scene where she talks about, you know, I ca… came up with a very, you know, calm upbringing, and Beckham kind of like just pops in and, like, "Tell the truth, be honest, be honest." Like, was, I, to me, that didn't look staged in any way.

37:52Tim CraggNothing was staged. N… we…

37:53Jawad MirNothing

37:53Tim Cragg... Nothing and nothing is staged in that. You know what I mean? Fish could never, ever handle that…

37:58Jawad MirYeah

37:58Tim Cragg... As a director.

37:59Jawad MirYeah.

37:59Tim CraggHe just…

38:00Jawad MirIt was obvious

38:00Tim Cragg... He's no. Beckham was, and I found it strange that Becks was there for that. Do you know what I mean? Because it's sort of, I guess, what it sh… you know, we always have to, you know, obviously that he'd been sort of whooped for. And there was another scene which was weird, which when he's making a coffee and she came into the room, it's actually the first time we saw her in our, in our, in shooting. You know, we would go to the house and they've got a few hou… we'd go to their house and she wouldn't be there. She'd be up somewhere, you know. "Victoria's here. Don't..." We'd have to sort of hide away. That was the only time she came in. He's making a coffee, and I'm filming him doing a little coffee-making, and that whole scene was about him, you know, sort of having OCD. The whole thing was about let's see how much he has to wipe and, you know, with a c… just the cleanliness of it. And then she came in and, I don't know, there was a whole thing about the candles and all that, and I whipped away and zoomed in on her, and she and they had a little, had a little sort of a little lovers tiff. And then he did, Becks told us, "Oh my God, we've just had, we'd had a fight in the morning," and, you know, it was just, and we sort of had arrived.

39:04Tim CraggBut yeah, I, it's, yeah, that sense of honesty that I think that they both gave, it was, yeah, very,.. We were lucky, you know? You know, and I think, j… I think we were lucky bec… and they'd had decided that's what they were gonna do. D… you know, I think, I think they…

39:24Jawad MirYeah

39:24Tim Cragg... I think... Yeah.

39:26Jawad MirI think…

39:27Tim CraggI think, you know, and that's brave

39:28Jawad Mir... It is brave.

39:30Tim CraggYou know?

39:30Jawad MirIt's beyond brave. I mean, to be…

39:32Tim CraggYeah

39:32Jawad Mir... A public figure, it's one thing for you and I, who are not known by more than maybe, you know, 30, 40 people, to go on camera and start talking about our personal lives, but for him to be an international star who has been at, who's gone through so much, to be able to put that out there. And the reason the series has become so something that people are talking about is because they see themselves in it. They see, they wish they can be honest about their lives because none of us are, even to ourselves, you know? Let's just face it, a lot of us, if not all of us, lie to ourselves every single day at some capacity. And then I think when you get it to a certain point where you've gone through a lot and you get to a certain age, you start realizing, you know, especially when you go in your, at least my experience, and I'm sure yours too, is like when you talk to people, whether you interview them in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, or 60s, you'll see, as I would say in my experience, after like 45 and above, that ch… that element of not being honest, the arc kind of starts going the other way.

40:39Jawad MirAnd by the time you hit 60, then you don't like, "I don't give a flying fudge about anything. I'll just be honest." But for him to do that earlier, kudos to him.

40:48Tim CraggYeah. I think you're right. Yeah. I got, I got quite a few messages from people on social media sort of saying that they had, watched it with their family, which is weird. So it means that it sort of brings in a sort of community aspect, you know? And we very much wanted, you know, we shot the eye direct stuff when they were all playing. You know, the, e… every character was shot with a very close, you know, camera.

41:16Jawad MirYeah.

41:16Tim CraggAnd we played back footage through an eye direct, you know? And I got that idea, Wim Wenders did an amazing documentary on Sebastiao Salgado, the photographer, called Salt of the Earth.

41:28Jawad MirOkay.

41:28Tim CraggAnd I saw that and that, very g… so do you know that film, Salt of the Earth?

41:33Jawad MirNo, I'll, I'll take a look at it though.

41:35Tim CraggYeah. It's a good, it's a good, it's a good, you know, Wim Wenders is obviously a fantastic filmmaker and Salgado looks at his photographs and they've done exactly the same. It's a slightly wider shot, you know. And yet it's like a midshot, but he's got a beautiful face, and it's very well lit. And his eyes, you see his eyes dancing around his own picture. They blur it like we did on the edges, and then they go full frame. And it just, I thought it was a very good way of bringing some, a jumping board into somebody's memory, you know. We can play them back the footage and more about them not saying, m… m… more about them not commentating, but seeing the muscles, the f… ooh, the little looks on their eyes. But it brought it circular back to most of the viewers watching football are watching football on a screen. And I like the idea that I got these messages back from people sort of saying, "I watched this with my family, and we all cried." It was like a, you know, sort of saying, "Thanks, 'cause you almost brought us together just as a family unit in watching a film about a strong family."

42:38Tim CraggYou know, father, son, very much family. You know, they're very much East London families, both of them.

42:43Jawad MirYeah.

42:43Tim CraggStrong relationships with their families that a lot of people don't have now. And that was, you know, that was sort of felt sort of old-fashioned in a way, but very admirable, and very much father, son, you know, grandfather, father, son, Beckham and his children. And sort of, and then also this idea that we wanted to include… Link the viewer with the footballers and that they are now also sharing football like the, like our audience at home in watching it in a screen and that sort of way that we do actually experience football, which is through a screen and, "Ah, ooh," you know, and all of that. And I think, you know, I've had a lot of comments about the I direct, you know, about that as a style. And that was just, it was a flippant thing that sort of completely worked.

43:29Jawad MirYeah.

43:30Tim CraggYeah, it was really good. It sort of, you know, and it was easy for us to do. We d… you know, it was super simple, you know. And it's a great device, you know. It's the best use of the I direct, I think. You know, I love that, I love that. Playing back or showing somebody something to give them a memory so that they can react to something, you know. It's good. You know…

43:49Jawad Mir100%

43:50Tim Cragg... You can just slide it on. It's made for it, you know what I mean? They make 'em for it.

43:54Jawad MirYeah. I saw it with my wife and I'm thinking about now showing it to my kids. I mean, they're, they're quite, they're, they're gonna be 14 and 12. Well, my daughter just turned 12. And I mean, there's a lot of great stuff in it, but I think the reason you said it kind of goes back to that s… talk, the thing that we talked about, therapy, whether it's this film or any other film, the reason people, if people's emotions are evoked, whether it's happy or sad or, you know, whatever, it's because that relatability, right? And that, and it's a, it's a therapeutic session for even the viewers because…

44:33Tim CraggYeah

44:33Jawad Mir... Not that they have gone through something similar like Beckham did, but we have all gone through stuff, and we're all going through stuff, and we'll all keep going through stuff because that's life. And people…

44:42Tim CraggYeah

44:42Jawad Mir... People want to t… watch that, and that's what I wish there's more stuff being made like that because I think we have lost the element of... We've become such a political world. You know, everything is a hot topic, and the element of family has been disappearing, and I think that's what people, no matter who the heck you are, even if you say, "I am this way or that way," at the core, we all have families, and people want that. I mean, Home Alone, you look at Chris Columbus, Mrs. Doubtfire, you know, Nine Months, all these movies, what are they about? They're just simple topics, but at the core, what is it about? Family, and that's what people want.

45:22Tim CraggYeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Family and emotion, you know?

45:28Jawad MirYeah.

45:28Tim CraggYou know, just, people want to be moved, you know what I mean? They want to be moved and as you know, if, you know, you know. And I think if you, once you enter into spectacle, you know, if that's your currency you're going for, when I've done documentaries, I used to do a lot of Attenborough 3D IMAX films.

45:45Tim CraggSo they were, you know, fun to do. Obviously, Attenborough, big name, and 3D and IMAX, everything large, but they were emotionally dead. They were all about, but they were all about a spectacle. And…

45:57Jawad MirYeah

45:57Tim Cragg... They were lucky that really delivered the spectacle. They were like, "Oh my God, this is gonna just like blow," or like Planet Earth and, you know, all those sort of things.

46:04Jawad MirYeah.

46:05Tim CraggBut they don't have emotion, but they do... So you have to take, you know, I say to every filmmaker now that I'm working with, director, like, "Oh my God, we've got to be so bold and brave with how we're making this," because the competition is unbelievably high. There are no rules anymore. There's no, you know, there's no rules what aspect ratio. Is it black and white? Is it, you know, whatever. Just work. And we're competing now with, you know, s… you know, you know, scripted. You know, and it's not like, "Oh, there's a good documentary." It's like, it's just, it's just eyeballs. And lucky a lot of the docs, you know, Beckham, I've had a few this year, Beckham, Encounters, Anna Nicole Smith film, they all reach number one. That means everybody on Netflix is watching that. You know, everybody is just watching that, you know. Deep as Breath. You know, they all, they all, and that means they're watching it over a drama and so there's no excuses now for documentaries and being, dull or, you know, it's, it's, so there's a lot of pressure I think on all of us filmmakers just to you know the competition is so high.

47:09Jawad MirYeah.

47:09Tim CraggAnd the expectation to deliver, it has to be, it's, I know if I work on something, they will say, "This will be one, two, or three on Netflix. Otherwise, it's a failure." You know what I mean? And I, and I'm given the support to create that, but it's like, it's got to, it's, it's, it's, it's all, you know, and luckily, the documentaries are doing well. It's a golden age for them, you know…

47:30Jawad MirYeah

47:30Tim Cragg... Really is. You know, that's great.

47:31Jawad MirAnd I have to give, I have to give credit to Netflix because I just, I had a meeting a few weeks ago just trying to, you know, pitch certain projects and trying to figure out what it is because every platform, every network, they're looking for something, right? Like they have a certain thing that they're looking for, but they're just so focused and precise about what the heck they want. At this, I mean, yes, I always have this discussion that one of the things that Netflix has done, among many other streamers, there's so much content you don't even know what to watch anymore, right? That's, and that's a discussion I had with one of the, producers over there, but at the same time, they're just so focused in knowing exactly what they want because they have algorithm, they have numbers to prove the eyeballs and all that because that's business at the end of the day. And going back to what I think is interesting that's happening, and I'm very happy about it, competition is very high, and it's gonna get even much worse now with AI kicking in. Having said that, I think one thing that cannot be competed against because it's all unique is telling your story.

48:41Jawad MirAnyone's story from your point of view because we're all unique, and I think if you can master the art of storytelling, whether it's through visuals, editing, directing, to me at least, the competition should be just with yourself, and if you can pop out, the technology always loses. That's just the way it is.

49:02Tim CraggYeah. You know, I think you're completely right. But it's hard to tell a good story.

49:07Jawad MirI know, it is.

49:07Tim CraggYou know, it's like…

49:08Jawad MirIt's not easy

49:08Tim Cragg... You know, tough, it's hard. It's hard for it not to become, you know... I… I get sent various… I get sent the first cut, second cut, you know, sort of, I'm in the process of… of the filmmaking, not… not… not in the edit suite, obviously, I'm just out shooting. But, you know, I see the development of… of different directors, they're not all like this.

49:27Jawad MirSure.

49:27Tim CraggBut, you know, it's… it's hard. It's… it's, you can have all the ingredients, and somehow people can get clogged in, or lose a bit of the story, or lose the emotion, or get too involved in the look or... You… you know, and it's like sometimes it all just comes together and it works, and I think that those, you know, it's... To be a director is tough, you know?

49:47Jawad MirIt is.

49:47Tim CraggYou know what I mean? To actually still, I think there's a… it's a gift.

49:50Jawad MirYou don't have to tell me.

49:51Tim CraggYeah. Yeah, and some people have a gift, and some people just, you know, like in all of our crafts, you can learn a craft, and… and you can be crafted, and then you can be gifted. And some people…

50:03Jawad MirYeah

50:03Tim Cragg... Just have gift. And… and you… you know, yeah. And… and, yeah, it's… it's, it's not an easy job, you know?

50:15Jawad MirComing up with a story is, you know, one thing that I realized too, like maybe about 12 years ago, story is not like, "Oh, I have an idea and I'm gonna do this," and that's it. It's about breaking it down to the bare bones in terms of character, why he or she is thinking like this, why should the scene go from here to there. And it's an art, and it comes, like you said, with a gift, but at the same time with practice, right? You gotta keep doing it over... And a lot of great films and great stories, nobody finds them. Nobody sees them. That's just unfortunate. But I think if you keep making what you're making and keep doing it, you will hit that level of, you know, if you make 10 films, and one of them becomes successful and people notice it, then they will wanna discover what you've done besides this, and then they will become accustomed to it. I mean, not everybody can be Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Quentin Tarantino. That's just not… not the way it is. But I think the reason all those filmmakers have succeeded, I don't know much about Nolan or Tarantino, but for Spielberg I can say, he's been honest about who he is and just showing his life in a very different spectacle.

51:28Jawad MirAnd that, I think…

51:28Tim CraggYeah

51:28Jawad Mir... That's…

51:29Tim CraggAnd I think…

51:29Jawad MirI think that's the key to me.

51:33Tim CraggYeah. I think you're right. I think, I think you also need to enjoy the process.

51:39Jawad MirYes.

51:39Tim CraggYou know? I think, I think most of us never get to the end. I mean, I've shot probably 100 films, and many have won awards. I'm still not happy. I'm still waiting for the one to be the one that I can actually say to my kids…

51:51Jawad MirOf course

51:51Tim Cragg... "You should watch this one." So, but I enjoy the process. I just, I love the process of filming.

51:57Jawad MirAnd that's the key.

51:58Tim CraggI love the... And that's the key. And I think if you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it, and you're not gonna do it for the fame, or the meet the people, or the awards, or the money, or...

52:07Jawad MirYeah

52:07Tim CraggIt's like actually really enjoy just shooting and owning the shot, and framing, and lighting, and how it looks, and the over importance of something that's really not important, but everybody makes it important. And… and I think the key, you know, you've gotta just actually, if somebody said to you, "We're not gonna pay you, what are you gonna do?" You'd probably say, "I'm still gonna do the same thing." It's just, you know, it's just I have to do this.

52:27Jawad MirYeah. Yeah.

52:27Tim CraggThis is not, it's a, you know, it's a lifestyle. It's a part of one's life, you know? I love taking photos. I always, I'm always with a camera, you know, and… and I'm always working on projects. They're not just photos. It's like it's, you know, it's my own little project that I add and add and add, and they, you know, they've all got these rules on how I take the photos and what they are and, you know, that's completely made up in my mind. It's… it's rubbish. But… but it keeps me going. It's my thing, you know? And we've all gotta find our thing, and… and… and that pushes us forward and, you know, you know, it's... And… and I feel sorry for people that haven't found their thing, you know? And I d… I, you know, I'm like, I was lucky that I t… I, it came early. You… you know what I mean? But I do, when people don't have a career or they don't know what they like, and I'm like, "Oh my God, well, just find life. What bugs you out? Like, how do you not, like..." It's got to really, everything's tough.

53:17Jawad MirYeah.

53:17Tim CraggSo it's gotta bug you out.

53:18Jawad MirI think, I mean, again, I'm not trying to generalize here, but I think in most cases, a lot of people do know what they wanna do. They're just damn afraid. The fear of failure and the rejection, and what if nobody watches this? What if nobody reads this? Like my first feature film, I think, I'll tell you a story. I mean, it… it… it actually demoralized me to, like the bottommost of the things, but it rose me up at the same time. It was about a small village and their fight against the government about getting a seawall repaired before hurricanes destroyed the village. It's called Only 78. I made it over a span of three and a half years on and off. Just com… I had a DP for the first week, and after that, everything I did myself because I had zero budget. Like, I just didn't have money.

54:05Tim CraggPassion project.

54:05Jawad MirAnd I remember we screened it the first time, and the people who came to see it were people from the village, and they gave standing ovation of the film because obviously it was their story and everything. And I, you know, being a storyteller, it felt great. So I'm like, "Okay, there's a response." Being me being delusional, "Let's do, you know, more screenings." We did this, screening in a smaller village, maybe 100 kilometers down from where… where we shot the film, and it was a massive auditorium, right? I would say easily 1,500 people can fit into it. And we did marketing and promotion on social media. The screening came, the person who came to sh… see the film was one of the organizers and myself, and nobody else. And… and that just, like really, you know... I… I'm sure you know how the hell that feels, right? Like you're… you're looking at this auditorium, and there's two seats filled out of like 1,500. And I think that's the thing, that the, that those kind of failures really teach you, and I think that's what people are afraid of.

55:11Jawad MirIt's not even about filmmaking, anything. I have this conversation with almost every time I talk to somebody, it's like, "Do what you want, but don't be afraid of failures and be uncomfortable." You have to be uncomfortable because that's when the best of you comes out. And even though I'm saying that, sometimes I don't push myself enough too, because at le… at the end of the day, I'm human too, right? But you, I think that, to me, that's what it is. People are afraid of rejection and failure, and even if they know they have some…

55:39Tim CraggYeah

55:39Jawad Mir... I know people who are great writers, who are great, in talk… like, in selling things, but like, why are you not doing that? Failure. Fear of failure.

55:49Tim CraggYeah. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. And that edge is a fine line, you know? I sort of found in shooting Beckham, as I said earlier, I did feel like with the very shallow focus and the wobbly camera and all that, like, have I just... Has this gone too far? You know, we j… should I, should have just, you know, sh… you know. But I guess also part of the benefit of having quite a few successful projects behind me, I kinda feel like, well, even if one flops, it doesn't matter.

56:17Jawad MirYeah, but it doesn't matter if it…

56:19Tim CraggI'm sure Beck…

56:19Jawad MirI think it doesn't matter if it flops, it's about what you think about that.

56:23Tim CraggYeah, totally.

56:24Jawad MirRight? About that process.

56:25Tim CraggAnd I like that, I like that edge of everything being like, ooh, is this, you know, I'm doing a couple of other projects at the moment, and I'm sort of saying to directors, like, "I think we should be stronger with, like bolder and more daring with our visual approach. Like, let's re… let's make this film very specifically…

56:40Jawad MirYeah

56:40Tim Cragg... Visually look like this." And they're like, once we go down that line, we're stuck. But like the Beckham, you know, we're completely committed. Th… it's like it's such a strong style that it's not like just random, like, okay, one in the interview and there's a window and he's on a tripod. It's like, it is what it is. And, but I th… that's the excitement, you know, it's sort of like, it's the daringness of, you know…

56:59Jawad MirYeah

56:59Tim Cragg... That's why I used to like shooting on film. So we always had this element of like, it should be good, but we don't know until we get the film back.

57:08Jawad MirWell, it must be…

57:08Tim CraggYou know, everybody's slightly…

57:09Jawad MirIt must be really daunting for you especially, I mean, it's one thing for a director, right? Like, a director probably wouldn't direct two films maybe at the s… in the same year. You know, Soderbergh has done that, Spielberg has done that. But for a cinematographer and what you do, like you said, you work on what, six, seven projects a year, right? Average.

57:28Tim CraggYeah.

57:29Jawad MirTo be able…

57:30Tim CraggYeah

57:30Jawad Mir... And then you've been doing this for so long, to have that unique look and challenge yourself working with different director, sometimes overthinking it, that I have to make it…

57:40Tim CraggYeah

57:40Jawad Mir... Look different, and in doing so, I'm sure you've made mistakes.

57:44Tim CraggYeah.

57:44Jawad MirThat must be really hard for you, trying to find that.

57:47Tim CraggYeah. I think the hardest thing is that because of the documentaries, I never, ever shoot one documentary in four months and then it's finished. Beckham was shot over two years. So I'm doing four-day shoot, and then the next week I'm on Encounters, shooting a week or two weeks for Encounters. Then I'm on, I've shot a couple of features that are coming out next year, actually, a biopic on Einstein for Netflix, you know, so I'm then on a scripted. So scripted is more like in one chunk. But I'm always going, you know, this week I'm working on four different long-term projects. Each of those projects are big projects for them, and I have to be, read my notes. I have little crib notes of each film that I'm shooting. This is how I want it to... You know, this is what we've spoken about, and I just, and I have to completely jump, can't sort of suddenly shoot it like Beckham or… You know, I have to sort of know that they are, you know, are different, you know, you know, different approaches and styles and, you know, the… and they're all different. And because I'm aware of what everybody else is doing, I can sometimes say to a production, "What you are doing is so not what your competition are doing, so we need..."

58:54Tim CraggAnd I have to bring that up to, like, the production level, and, you know, like, "You guys need to, like..." And when it comes to spending of money, and I'm like, "I know what the budgets are. We're not... You're well out there. Your competition's gonna kill you. Just so you need to raise your level." And I'm, I think I'm lucky in that I can then raise every production level and sort of say, "Maybe we should approach it like this."

59:15Jawad MirGood for you.

59:16Tim CraggAnd that means they have to somehow find the money. Every production's never, they never, ever quite fit in, and they, and it just means it's pushing, to the point where, like, on Encounters, that was with Amblin, Spielberg's company…

59:31Tim Cragg... They're very interested in talking about other projects, and sort of going, "We really like what you did with this. What we saw coming out of the budget, you know, like, we would like to see with a tiny bit more that we gave you and the director, what could you guys do? 'Cause this really excites us, because we're seeing value for money. Super cinematic." You know, I don't know what that was, six, seven million or something for the series. But you know, we wanna see, like, what if there was a bit more money and, you know, you know, bit of a mixed genre. You know, I'm very interested in that. Like, maybe we can, you know, it's just storytelling, so let's, let's, you know. And, that excites me, 'cause that's where I see documentaries going, in that the rules have been completely dropped and, there are some amazing stories out there. We can move quicker than in scripted. You know, we can move really quickly on finding the story, researching it, getting access. And then it's really about how do we wanna tell the story. You know, some of them are now dramatized, some are real people, some are real people dramatization, some are real people, real people act and they get access to other parts.

1:00:31Tim CraggAnd I'm finding that whole mix of how the everyday person doesn't have to act, but because we use the cinema tools of how we present them, they just be themselves, and we shoot them in a way that is how a movie would be shot. Anamorphic lenses, you know…

1:00:48Tim Cragg... Steadicam, like Steadicam, and then suddenly it's, when you watch it, you don't, you kind of, it doesn't really matter. You're not sort of going, "Oh, this is a documentary. This shouldn't be like this." You're just going, "I'm sucked into the story. I'm digging it. I'm," you know. And I, and I think to me, that is what's really exciting, you know? And I don't know what this new genre is, you know, and but…

1:01:09Jawad MirSure

1:01:10Tim CraggA good story, you know? You know.

1:01:15Jawad MirYeah. Yeah, no, I bet. I mean, it's exciting times. I mean, documentary filmmaking has evolved so much. I never signed up to be a documentary filmmaker in my wildest dreams. I never thought I would become, you know, I'd be directing documentaries. It just kinda happened. But at the same time, like you said, it's always evolving, and I mean, it's interesting how in the last 25 years or maybe even 27 years there has been the element of reality shows, you know, which I don't watch, but, documentaries, narratives, and now there's AI and there's dramatized documentaries, and just imagine all these things and then series coming together and like you said, excitement of what it produces. It'd be magical.

1:01:58Tim CraggYeah.

1:01:58Jawad MirIt'd be, it'd be really thrilling to see.

1:02:01Tim CraggYeah. We almost need to drop this sort of genre columns…

1:02:06Jawad MirYes

1:02:06Tim Cragg... Of what things fit into. Go, this is a f… you know, and yeah, and I think we, I think…

1:02:10Jawad MirStory is story. At the end of the day, it's all about story, period.

1:02:14Tim CraggAnd people are talking about that now. You know, I'm, I'm in productions now that it will come out in 2024, end of 2024, and that's what produc… you know, th… th… th… that's what's bubbling now y… you know, and super exciting, you know? And the, and the money's to back it too. They're giving a bit more money and it's not, it's not a lack of money. It's not like we sort of go, "Oh, there's no money." It's, it's, it's the lack of our, it's the challenge is the creativity, you know? So and that's wonderful 'cause you're like, shit, we need to be really sort of, not style over content, just we've really gotta think about this and make sure that this is good and, you know, drop the rules. There are no rules, you know? And that's nice. I love that. I love the b… no rules, I love that.

1:02:51Jawad MirWell, the best things always comes out when the rules are break, broken or there are no rules.

1:02:55Tim CraggIt's…

1:02:55Jawad MirThat's when there's…

1:02:56Tim CraggLook at music, you know? The best music is always the sort of avant-garde reaction…

1:03:01Jawad MirYeah

1:03:01Tim Cragg... Against something, and it's, it's, it's sort of what I'm interested in, so yeah.

1:03:05Jawad MirFantastic. Well, it's been a real pleasure talking to you, Tim. And…

1:03:09Tim CraggThank you

1:03:10Jawad Mir... I, there's very few people that I speak to on the podcast, Don Burgess, the DP, being one of them, Richard Francis, an editor, and few others who I've spoken to over and over again, and I think we would probably do the same. If you have time, I would love to keep talking to you about your different projects, Encounters may be my next, and anything else.

1:03:31Tim CraggYeah.

1:03:31Jawad MirAnd it's, it's been a delight talking to you. Really has.

1:03:34Tim CraggLikewise.

1:03:34Jawad MirSo I appreciate your time.

1:03:37Tim CraggThank you. Thank you very much, and well done for doing this. You know, it's just pushing sort of, you know, filmmaking out there, and that's a beautiful thing 'cause it's a, it's a fantastic career for anybody to do, and I get lots of emails and messages from, you know, young people wanting to start out, and I just say, like, "Do it. Just do it. Find your love. Find your passion. Just do it." So well done for, you know, pushing it. Thank you.

1:03:59Jawad MirThank you, man. Appreciate it. We'll talk soon.

1:04:01Tim CraggOkay, awesome. Cheers, man. Bye.

1:04:03Jawad MirAll right, take care. Have a great one. Bye. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for watching and listening. Don't forget to subscribe, like, share, and comment, and do come back for another episode. Until then, have a great day.